[Boxerglocker]

Originally Posted by EL_NinO619

Nice little chat where having. Now I really want to do some IDPA, where can i get info to participate. And our newbs like me welcome or do i need to find a Newb class.

Go to the IDPA website and find a club nearby... contact the organizer and get the skinny on how to get started.

Personally, unless it's just plinking with the S&W M&P 15-22 with my sons. I have no desire to shoot other than when it is to train/practice with a purpose or shoot a match.

[Boxerglocker]

Yikes! Double Tap.

[Boxerglocker]

Originally Posted by shotgunred

Interestedly enough the tac rifle match that boxer invited me to around 1/3 of the participants were police and most of them were SWAT. Including the guy who won the Washington State SWAT competition last year. Most of them were coming from Seattle area So they were traveling close to 100 miles. That would make me think that they find training value in it.

Not to mention that club is the home of the USTACRA, and home ground for the national SWAT rodeo. They get guys traveling from teams all over the country for that one not just local.

<iframe width="853" height="510" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/ak-cFVrBEgE?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Our group, the civilians get to run the course the following week. Some of us volunteer as SO/RO for the event and get to play with all the cools toys between and after stages

[Bogey]

Originally Posted by GioaJack

I've only had to reload 3 times in social encounters, (reload twice in one instance), but we were still using revolvers with speed strips.

If you've practiced enough you never even look at your gun and when everything is over and done you don't even remember doing it. You obviously know you did, there's brass laying on the ground but you don't remember doing it.

I think it'd be more fun reloading an artillery piece... now that you're going to remember!


Jack

Come on now Jack....you KNOW it's difficult to carry artillery reloads on your belt.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by GioaJack

If you want excitement and a much higher opportunity of using your skill set on a fairly regular basis the best place to be is on the street as a uniform cop. You're always the first on the scene of everything and it's up to you to take the appropriate action before anyone even thinks of coming to help.



Jack

This. Also, SWAT are given the blessings of someone else to do what needs to be done. They have a green light. In patrol, you are the only one who decides what to do at that moment, and I can guarantee you will be second guessed, up to and including criminal prosecution, by the same slugs who give SWAT the green light.

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by EL_NinO619

Nice little chat where having. Now I really want to do some IDPA, where can i get info to participate. And our newbs like me welcome or do i need to find a Newb class.
..

There is a club that shoots down by you. There is one that shoots @ Prado in ChinoHills. Fees vary, usually about $20 for 5-8 stages depends on where you go. WiskT is right, you won't be the worst there. As long as you are safe, newbs are always welcome. If you want to come up & shoot Prado w/ me, they go on the 1st & 3rd Sat every month. Last Sat they had 66 shooters on 8 stages. Reg @ 8:30, start shooting @ 9am, we were done by 2:15. Bring your XD45 & shoot in CDP w/ full power ammo, or bring lighter loads & shoot in ESP. You will have to get classified @ some point if you want to shoot a larger state match, but can shoot unclassified at most local clubs.

[shotgunred]

A holster that covers your trigger, 2 mag holders, three mags and a cover garment. Oh yea some ammo. (Figure 20 rounds per stage.) Check with the club. mine makes new people show up early for a safety briefing.
IDPA is very friendly and cuts new people slack.



http://www.idpa.com/Documents/IDPARuleBook2005.pdf

[EL_NinO619]

Originally Posted by fredj338

There is a club that shoots down by you. There is one that shoots @ Prado in ChinoHills. Fees vary, usually about $20 for 5-8 stages depends on where you go. WiskT is right, you won't be the worst there. As long as you are safe, newbs are always welcome. If you want to come up & shoot Prado w/ me, they go on the 1st & 3rd Sat every month. Last Sat they had 66 shooters on 8 stages. Reg @ 8:30, start shooting @ 9am, we were done by 2:15. Bring your XD45 & shoot in CDP w/ full power ammo, or bring lighter loads & shoot in ESP. You will have to get classified @ some point if you want to shoot a larger state match, but can shoot unclassified at most local clubs.

The first weekend of next month may be in order. I have to go to bed and you guys are getting me pumped up with all this talk and videos....

[Jim Watson]

The IDPA rule book can be torturous.
Try http://www.gadpa.com/index.php/ipda/...oter-briefing/
for about as good an introduction to rules and procedures as you can get without an in-person class.

[Cobra64]

Yup, professional classes shooting on the move, seeking cover and concealment with tac and emergency reloads is a great learning experience, useful and fun.

[cowboy1964]

You should always carry a spare mag and not just for extra boolits. Say you have a jam and you have to drop the mag.... and you literally drop the mag. A lot faster to go to your backup mag. etc etc yada yada.

[Cobra64]

Originally Posted by cowboy1964

You should always carry a spare mag and not just for extra boolits. Say you have a jam and you have to drop the mag.... and you literally drop the mag. A lot faster to go to your backup mag. etc etc yada yada.

A sturdy belt, holster, and spare mags are required.

[Colorado4Wheel]

Originally Posted by Cobra64

How did you do half those things with out sweeping your neighbor with a loaded weapon?

Even if that is not a big deal to you, how much do you trust the idiot next to you? Those pictures look a little scary to me.

[unclebob]

I thought the same thing.

[Cobra64]

Originally Posted by Colorado4Wheel

How did you do half those things with out sweeping your neighbor with a loaded weapon?

Even if that is not a big deal to you, how much do you trust the idiot next to you? Those pictures look a little scary to me.

There were three instructors watching the line.

Variation on this was stepping to the right one position and using your partner's weapon. The "slide lock release" devotees fumbled.














Dropping mags during an emergency reload. Guy on the left exhibited poor form.







The guy standing was doing a 360 degree scan for threats with a hot weapon.

School

[fredj338]

Originally Posted by Cobra64

The guy standing was doing a 360 degree scan for threats with a hot weapon.

[/CENTER]

School

That was the one that made me nervous. No one teaches gun in the air potentially pointed at someones head. There are better ways to scans for threars w/o exposing anyone to poor gun handling.
Training a bunch of students at a time can be done but takes a good team of safety concious instructors plus making every student a safety instructor as well.

[Boxerglocker]

Originally Posted by Cobra64

Dropping mags during an emergency reload. Guy on the left exhibited poor form.

In that particular still, all three showing bad form IMO. All three to far extended with the strong hand, none of them appear to be in a ideal position to be looking down for their magwell opening. Best technique I find that was taught to me is to tuck the strong hand elbow into the ribcage, as you bring it back press the mag release button, look at your magwell opening to index your mag, slam the mag and gun together, then push both arm straight out again to reaquire the threat.

[DoctaGlockta]

Originally Posted by unclebob

I thought the same thing.

Me too. Hope the camera man got danger pay.






Was that lady a good shot?

[Cobra64]

Originally Posted by fredj338

That was the one that made me nervous. No one teaches gun in the air potentially pointed at someones head. There are better ways to scans for threars w/o exposing anyone to poor gun handling.
Training a bunch of students at a time can be done but takes a good team of safety concious instructors plus making every student a safety instructor as well.

If you want to discuss their training philosophy or know more about their school, give them a call.

(FWIW, none of us pointed a weapon at anyone. When we came off the neutralized threat, the muzzle went straight up before initiating the 360 degree scan.)

[Cobra64]

Originally Posted by Boxerglocker

In that particular still, all three showing bad form IMO. All three to far extended with the strong hand, none of them appear to be loading for their magwell opening. Best technique I find that was taught to me is to tuck the strong hand elbow into the ribcage, as you bring it back press the mag release button, look at your magwell opening to index your mag, slam the mag and gun together, then push both arm straight out again to reaquire the threat.

He's not in control of the mag here either:

The mag should be palmed with index finger on the nose of the first round until insertion begins.

[GioaJack]

OH BOY, early morning points of contention with the possibility of a mild to medium argument on the horizon... I FREAKING LOVE THIS PLACE!

Okay, once again I'll throw in my worthless opinion on the loading photo. There are lots of ways to accomplish a reload, be it revolver or semi with some being more effective than others. No matter which technique one chooses to you, (the method is often dictated by physical dexterity and confidence level as well as situational mandate).

There is one cardinal rule however, (this probably applies more toward police type or civilian CCW engagements as opposed to gaming since I'm not familiar with the different disciplines and rules)... NEVER, EVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF, OR LOSE SIGHT OF THE THREAT.

Seems like a simple concept and one that should come naturally but it is almost always violated by those who do not understand the potential importance.

For most people reloading a semi is considerably easier and quicker than loading a revolver although there are people who have perfected a revolver reload without changing hands and charging the cylinder with the weak hand utilizing either speed strips or speed loaders. Utilizing this technique negates having to move the muzzle away from the target area. As nifty as it is I was never able to even approach being proficient in this method of loading and used the more common method of transferring the gun to the weak hand. Not the ideal method but with practice can be easily accomplished without ever having to look at the gun nor divert your line of sight from the threat, (target).

Semis are obviously easier to load and under most circumstances much quicker but also do not require one to divert their attention or line of sight from the threat(s).

Yes, yes, I understand that many will poo-poo the idea that taking your eyes off the threat for a second or two can have a major effect on the potential outcome but if you don't see what's going on how do you know what's going on?

In a perfect world, where one has to accomplish a reload with a semi the last hot round would be left in the chamber ready for engagement. (This is my biggest argument against magazine disconnects in a combat gun. Yes, I know, they are a safeguard against AD's but that's a separate argument altogether.) We don't live in a perfect world however and when things start getting hot and heavy you probably stand a better chance of reading a Korean newspaper than you do accurately counting your shots. Most probably your going to be left with a slide locked back or clicking on an empty cylinder. Things rarely go as you'd like in a social engagement.

Ideally you always want your gun at least pointed in the general direction of the threat(s), easier to do with a semi than a revolver. At the very, very least you want your eyes and attention on the threat... there is absolutely no reason to be looking at your gun... it's not a threat to you, the bad guy is.

What are the possible ramifications if you take your eyes off the threat? Very simple... you can die, or someone else can die. How far can the bad guy move during that second or two that your eyes are diverted? Can he achieve cover that he didn't have, can he move into position to take a hostage or human shield, can he advance on your position without you being aware, have other police officers or civilians or CCW holders unexpectedly changed positions and negated whatever advantageous position you might have had?

Sound farfetched? Don't bet your life on it. In 1974 we had three auto theft detectives killed in one incident. They went to an apartment complex to serve a simple auto theft arrest warrant... not something we would have considered a high risk endeavor by any means, pretty routine actually.

They knocked on the first floor door, (the subject was know to them and had never been known to have displayed and violent tendencies. He was just a car thief).

The subject opened the door... with a shotgun in his hands. The first shot killed the closest detective outright, lacking any kind of cover the other two detectives pretty much did the only thing they could do, they turned and ran obviously hoping for separation.

According to witnesses the two detectives ran at an angle from each other, probably a good decision on their part. One detective got approximately twenty-yards into the parking lot before he took a shotgun round to the back. According to witnesses the subject ran up to the wounded officer, took his .45, (have no idea if it was in a belt holster or shoulder holster) and executed the officer with one round through the head.

The third officer managed to reach a parked car, took cover behind the rear fender and engaged the subject with a five-shot Smith model 60, (or 36, not clear on that). Witness statements indicated that the detective engaged the subject from 50 to seventy yards while the subject advanced on him. (Obviously many people would jump on his actions and immediately comment on how easy a fifty-yard shot would be, especially from behind cover. Well, they may be right, then again watching two of your partners killed then running across a parking lot while waiting for a round to tear through your back might effect your aim just a little. I think it probably would with me but, hey, that's just me.)

Although witnesses could never agree how many shots they heard the detective fire we know it was only five since that's what the gun held and that's how many cases were laying on the ground.

Now, to the point of reloading... and on this the witnesses agreed. The detective kicked out his empties and was looking at his gun while he attempted to reload. He never saw the subject move up to the car and put a round into his head. Had he been looking at the threat, instead of his gun he possibly could have performed even a partial reload and engaged the subject from several feet away with 1-2 or 3 rounds.

Since none of you are ever going to be my back-up or marked unit partner, (if you're sittin' in the passenger seat where would I put my walker and oxygen bottle?) I don't really care how you practice or what method of reloading you use. If, however, you want to learn to do it right and increase your odds of survival... DON'T EVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE THREAT.

Oh, BTW, even though it took us almost five hours we finally cornered the subject on the beach in a large clump of mangrove trees. Back then if you killed a cop you didn't go to trial... you got covered with a yellow plastic sheet. Personally I think it's a pretty effective system.


Jack

[Cobra64]

Originally Posted by GioaJack

OH BOY, early morning points of contention with the possibility of a mild to medium argument on the horizon... I FREAKING LOVE THIS PLACE!

Okay, once again I'll throw in my worthless opinion on the loading photo. There are lots of ways to accomplish a reload, be it revolver or semi with some being more effective than others. No matter which technique one chooses to you, (the method is often dictated by physical dexterity and confidence level as well as situational mandate).

There is one cardinal rule however, (this probably applies more toward police type or civilian CCW engagements as opposed to gaming since I'm not familiar with the different disciplines and rules)... NEVER, EVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF, OR LOSE SIGHT OF THE THREAT.

Seems like a simple concept and one that should come naturally but it is almost always violated by those who do not understand the potential importance.

For most people reloading a semi is considerably easier and quicker than loading a revolver although there are people who have perfected a revolver reload without changing hands and charging the cylinder with the weak hand utilizing either speed strips or speed loaders. Utilizing this technique negates having to move the muzzle away from the target area. As nifty as it is I was never able to even approach being proficient in this method of loading and used the more common method of transferring the gun to the weak hand. Not the ideal method but with practice can be easily accomplished without ever having to look at the gun nor divert your line of sight from the threat, (target).

Semis are obviously easier to load and under most circumstances much quicker but also do not require one to divert their attention or line of sight from the threat(s).

Yes, yes, I understand that many will poo-poo the idea that taking your eyes off the threat for a second or two can have a major effect on the potential outcome but if you don't see what's going on how do you know what's going on?

In a perfect world, where one has to accomplish a reload with a semi the last hot round would be left in the chamber ready for engagement. (This is my biggest argument against magazine disconnects in a combat gun. Yes, I know, they are a safeguard against AD's but that's a separate argument altogether.) We don't live in a perfect world however and when things start getting hot and heavy you probably stand a better chance of reading a Korean newspaper than you do accurately counting your shots. Most probably your going to be left with a slide locked back or clicking on an empty cylinder. Things rarely go as you'd like in a social engagement.

Ideally you always want your gun at least pointed in the general direction of the threat(s), easier to do with a semi than a revolver. At the very, very least you want your eyes and attention on the threat... there is absolutely no reason to be looking at your gun... it's not a threat to you, the bad guy is.

What are the possible ramifications if you take your eyes off the threat? Very simple... you can die, or someone else can die. How far can the bad guy move during that second or two that your eyes are diverted? Can he achieve cover that he didn't have, can he move into position to take a hostage or human shield, can he advance on your position without you being aware, have other police officers or civilians or CCW holders unexpectedly changed positions and negated whatever advantageous position you might have had?

Sound farfetched? Don't bet your life on it. In 1974 we had three auto theft detectives killed in one incident. They went to an apartment complex to serve a simple auto theft arrest warrant... not something we would have considered a high risk endeavor by any means, pretty routine actually.

They knocked on the first floor door, (the subject was know to them and had never been known to have displayed and violent tendencies. He was just a car thief).

The subject opened the door... with a shotgun in his hands. The first shot killed the closest detective outright, lacking any kind of cover the other two detectives pretty much did the only thing they could do, they turned and ran obviously hoping for separation.

According to witnesses the two detectives ran at an angle from each other, probably a good decision on their part. One detective got approximately twenty-yards into the parking lot before he took a shotgun round to the back. According to witnesses the subject ran up to the wounded officer, took his .45, (have no idea if it was in a belt holster or shoulder holster) and executed the officer with one round through the head.

The third officer managed to reach a parked car, took cover behind the rear fender and engaged the subject with a five-shot Smith model 60, (or 36, not clear on that). Witness statements indicated that the detective engaged the subject from 50 to seventy yards while the subject advanced on him. (Obviously many people would jump on his actions and immediately comment on how easy a fifty-yard shot would be, especially from behind cover. Well, they may be right, then again watching two of your partners killed then running across a parking lot while waiting for a round to tear through your back might effect your aim just a little. I think it probably would with me but, hey, that's just me.)

Although witnesses could never agree how many shots they heard the detective fire we know it was only five since that's what the gun held and that's how many cases were laying on the ground.

Now, to the point of reloading... and on this the witnesses agreed. The detective kicked out his empties and was looking at his gun while he attempted to reload. He never saw the subject move up to the car and put a round into his head. Had he been looking at the threat, instead of his gun he possibly could have performed even a partial reload and engaged the subject from several feet away with 1-2 or 3 rounds.

Since none of you are ever going to be my back-up or marked unit partner, (if you're sittin' in the passenger seat where would I put my walker and oxygen bottle?) I don't really care how you practice or what method of reloading you use. If, however, you want to learn to do it right and increase your odds of survival... DON'T EVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE THREAT.

Oh, BTW, even though it took us almost five hours we finally cornered the subject on the beach in a large clump of mangrove trees. Back then if you killed a cop you didn't go to trial... you got covered with a yellow plastic sheet. Personally I think it's a pretty effective system.


Jack

Great story Jack and I agree with you about keeping eyes on the threat.

I've taken several classes from this instructor demonstrating speed reload technique.

[samuse]

Originally Posted by shotgunred

Shooting while moving backwards is actually easier than shooting while moving forwards.

Pay attention to how your feet move when you walk backwards.

Reverse that and go frontwards. It's not as natural, but it keeps the wobble out.

[DoctaGlockta]

Originally Posted by GioaJack

OH BOY, early morning points of contention with the possibility of a mild to medium argument on the horizon... I FREAKING LOVE THIS PLACE!
........................

Jack

You need to write a book..........wait you already have.........you need to write another book.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by GioaJack

OH BOY, early morning points of contention with the possibility of a mild to medium argument on the horizon... I FREAKING LOVE THIS PLACE!

Okay, once again I'll throw in my worthless opinion on the loading photo. There are lots of ways to accomplish a reload, be it revolver or semi with some being more effective than others. No matter which technique one chooses to you, (the method is often dictated by physical dexterity and confidence level as well as situational mandate).

There is one cardinal rule however, (this probably applies more toward police type or civilian CCW engagements as opposed to gaming since I'm not familiar with the different disciplines and rules)... NEVER, EVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF, OR LOSE SIGHT OF THE THREAT.

Seems like a simple concept and one that should come naturally but it is almost always violated by those who do not understand the potential importance.

For most people reloading a semi is considerably easier and quicker than loading a revolver although there are people who have perfected a revolver reload without changing hands and charging the cylinder with the weak hand utilizing either speed strips or speed loaders. Utilizing this technique negates having to move the muzzle away from the target area. As nifty as it is I was never able to even approach being proficient in this method of loading and used the more common method of transferring the gun to the weak hand. Not the ideal method but with practice can be easily accomplished without ever having to look at the gun nor divert your line of sight from the threat, (target).

Semis are obviously easier to load and under most circumstances much quicker but also do not require one to divert their attention or line of sight from the threat(s).

Yes, yes, I understand that many will poo-poo the idea that taking your eyes off the threat for a second or two can have a major effect on the potential outcome but if you don't see what's going on how do you know what's going on?

In a perfect world, where one has to accomplish a reload with a semi the last hot round would be left in the chamber ready for engagement. (This is my biggest argument against magazine disconnects in a combat gun. Yes, I know, they are a safeguard against AD's but that's a separate argument altogether.) We don't live in a perfect world however and when things start getting hot and heavy you probably stand a better chance of reading a Korean newspaper than you do accurately counting your shots. Most probably your going to be left with a slide locked back or clicking on an empty cylinder. Things rarely go as you'd like in a social engagement.

Ideally you always want your gun at least pointed in the general direction of the threat(s), easier to do with a semi than a revolver. At the very, very least you want your eyes and attention on the threat... there is absolutely no reason to be looking at your gun... it's not a threat to you, the bad guy is.

What are the possible ramifications if you take your eyes off the threat? Very simple... you can die, or someone else can die. How far can the bad guy move during that second or two that your eyes are diverted? Can he achieve cover that he didn't have, can he move into position to take a hostage or human shield, can he advance on your position without you being aware, have other police officers or civilians or CCW holders unexpectedly changed positions and negated whatever advantageous position you might have had?

Sound farfetched? Don't bet your life on it. In 1974 we had three auto theft detectives killed in one incident. They went to an apartment complex to serve a simple auto theft arrest warrant... not something we would have considered a high risk endeavor by any means, pretty routine actually.

They knocked on the first floor door, (the subject was know to them and had never been known to have displayed and violent tendencies. He was just a car thief).

The subject opened the door... with a shotgun in his hands. The first shot killed the closest detective outright, lacking any kind of cover the other two detectives pretty much did the only thing they could do, they turned and ran obviously hoping for separation.

According to witnesses the two detectives ran at an angle from each other, probably a good decision on their part. One detective got approximately twenty-yards into the parking lot before he took a shotgun round to the back. According to witnesses the subject ran up to the wounded officer, took his .45, (have no idea if it was in a belt holster or shoulder holster) and executed the officer with one round through the head.

The third officer managed to reach a parked car, took cover behind the rear fender and engaged the subject with a five-shot Smith model 60, (or 36, not clear on that). Witness statements indicated that the detective engaged the subject from 50 to seventy yards while the subject advanced on him. (Obviously many people would jump on his actions and immediately comment on how easy a fifty-yard shot would be, especially from behind cover. Well, they may be right, then again watching two of your partners killed then running across a parking lot while waiting for a round to tear through your back might effect your aim just a little. I think it probably would with me but, hey, that's just me.)

Although witnesses could never agree how many shots they heard the detective fire we know it was only five since that's what the gun held and that's how many cases were laying on the ground.

Now, to the point of reloading... and on this the witnesses agreed. The detective kicked out his empties and was looking at his gun while he attempted to reload. He never saw the subject move up to the car and put a round into his head. Had he been looking at the threat, instead of his gun he possibly could have performed even a partial reload and engaged the subject from several feet away with 1-2 or 3 rounds.

Since none of you are ever going to be my back-up or marked unit partner, (if you're sittin' in the passenger seat where would I put my walker and oxygen bottle?) I don't really care how you practice or what method of reloading you use. If, however, you want to learn to do it right and increase your odds of survival... DON'T EVER TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE THREAT.

Oh, BTW, even though it took us almost five hours we finally cornered the subject on the beach in a large clump of mangrove trees. Back then if you killed a cop you didn't go to trial... you got covered with a yellow plastic sheet. Personally I think it's a pretty effective system.


Jack

I'll be having dinner tonight with a retired NYPD copper whose partner was killed while looking down reloading.

Jack, we should start our own tactical shooting academy. Your resume' is fine. I'll fluff up mine a little(I'll just pen in a couple things like BUDS, Ranger school, Parajumper, Rescue Swimmer). We can direct everyone to do silly things while we watch from the safety of our Lexan booth. The booth will be supplied with refrigerated oxygen so you won't need to wear a mask or canula and you won't have to hear me ***** about the heat. It's hard to look like a warrior with a canula. Anyway, we do need one warrior, an apprentice if you will, to actually be on the line. We could get C4W one of those hardhats with a rotating red light on top, throw in a red shirt that says "Senior Tactical Unit Director" and he would go for it.