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Old 06-29-2011, 13:33   #1
CamHollowPoint1988
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is the 10mm Cartridge more powerful than the .45acp Cartridge?

I See Bullet Diameter of the 10mm is 10.16 mm (0.400 in) and the .45acp Bullet Diamter is .452 in (11.5 mm) So the .45acp is the winner in Bullet Diameter.

The Case Length of the 10mm is 25.20 mm (0.992 in) and the .45acp Case Length is .898 in (22.8 mm) it seems that the 10mm is the winner in Case Length.

Just wondering who is truly the more powerful round????? i got this info from wikipedia by the way there is more info on there.

it's like 45acp vs .357 magnum the 45.acp is a larger bullet diamter but the .357 magnum holds a lot more powder in its case then the .45acp.
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Old 06-29-2011, 14:05   #2
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Which caliber, 10mm or .45auto (.451 cailber), is more powerful than the other is really a moot issue. When Speer/Winchester/Remington make bonded bullets, or Federal offers their HST line of ammo in 10mm, the 10mm will be on par with the .45auto for personal defense.

Until then, the 10mm, except for the 175gr Silvertip, HPs are loaded with bullets designed for .40S&W velocities.

The fast 10mm/180gr JHPs have the same momentum as average .45auto/230gr JHPs, but at the cost of greater recoil and muzzle blast. In handgun calibers, it's the bullet's momentum that's primary . . . not foot pounds of energy!

Sectional density constantly and rapidly changes during expansion, the .45auto/230gr JHP can expand wider and retain a higher sectional density than the 10mm/180gr JHP.

Federal's HST line of ammunition is designed to expand twice its caliber, if you check some of the ATK ballistic gel numbers, you'll notice some monster expansion diameters combined with great penetration.

http://le.atk.com/default.aspx

Hope this helps.

Bob
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Old 06-29-2011, 16:32   #3
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Is the 10mm Cartridge more powerful than the .45acp Cartridge?
Yes it is - and whether it's a "moot" issue or not wasn't the O.P.'s question ... 'Kay?

It is an established factoid that 10mm factory ammo, when loaded to real 10mm velocity (which is not .40-level velocity) produces fps/fpe stats well in excess of anything the BigSlo (i.e., the .45acp) can produce on its best day.

Caliber Corner

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Old 06-29-2011, 16:47   #4
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agtman is correct, the 10 is a more powerful cartridge than the .45 Auto. The reason is that the case length & bullet diameter is irrelavant, as the 10mm operates at a much higher pressure. This does make it somewhat snappier than the .45. The difference in recoil is not that great though. I can compare directly as I have two Kimber 1911s, one a .45 and one a 10. I cannot speak to the Glock 10s. They may 'feel' entirely different.
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Old 06-29-2011, 17:21   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agtman View Post
Yes it is - and whether it's a "moot" issue or not wasn't the O.P.'s question ... 'Kay?

It is an established factoid that 10mm factory ammo, when loaded to real 10mm velocity (which is not .40-level velocity) produces fps/fpe stats well in excess of anything the BigSlo (i.e., the .45acp) can produce on its best day.

Caliber Corner

From Double Tap when they loaded Gold Dots;

Quote:
DoubleTap 9mm+P
147gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps/413fpe - 14.00" / .66"

DoubleTap .357 Sig
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1450fps/584fpe - 14.5" / .66"

DoubleTap 9X25mm
125gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1725fps/826fpe - 15.0" / .74"

DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps/484fpe - 14.75" / .68"

DoubleTap .357 Magnum
158gr. Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps/688fpe - 19.0" .56"

DoubleTap 10mm
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps/749fpe - 13.5" / .88"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps/675fpe - 15.25" / .96"

DoubleTap .45ACP
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps/521fpe - 15.25" / .95"
What factory loads and bullets designed for 10mm velocities are you talking about?

Interesting how the 9mm/147gr Gold Dot with 413fpe penetrated deeper than the 10mm/155gr Gold Dot (749fpe) isn't it? Perhaps you can explain those results using the faster and heavier 10mm with 336 more fpe?

Even with a 154fpe advantage, and you're incorrect using fpe as a reference) the 10mm/180gr had zero advantage heads-up with the .45auto/230gr GD . . . . that's why knowledgeable people use momentum rather than fpe when comparing different bullet weights and velocities.

This 155gr GD over expanded running at 1420fps and had miserable penetration;

Caliber Corner

I loaded this 155gr XTP into the upper 1500s

Caliber Corner

This 180gr GD also came apart ~1300fps;

Caliber Corner

As did the 180gr XTP at 1294fps;

Caliber Corner

When loading for personal defense, bring the 180s down to the mid 1200s for reliable expansion, that's about the upper velocity window for 180s designed for .40S&W velocities.

As I wrote earlier, .40 designed JHP bullets don't perform all that well when loaded to 'true' 10mm velocities at personal defense distances.

Bob
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Old 06-29-2011, 17:35   #6
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Bob, just what are you shooting those bullets into that caused the breakups?
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Old 06-29-2011, 18:23   #7
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
Bob, just what are you shooting those bullets into that caused the breakups?
Maybe he's not ...

Just using a hammer on those projectile, ... eh Bob?

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Old 06-29-2011, 18:45   #8
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"It is an established factoid that 10mm factory ammo, when loaded to real 10mm velocity (which is not .40-level velocity) produces fps/fpe stats well in excess of anything the BigSlo (i.e., the .45acp) can produce on its best day."

It's also an established Factoid that some people can be very rude!!

Yes, the 10mm is more powerful than the 45 acp. But not more powerful than the 45 Super! Which can be shot out of any modern 45acp with slight improvements.
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Old 06-29-2011, 18:58   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
"It is an established factoid that 10mm factory ammo, when loaded to real 10mm velocity (which is not .40-level velocity) produces fps/fpe stats well in excess of anything the BigSlo (i.e., the .45acp) can produce on its best day."

It's also an established Factoid that some people can be very rude!!

Yes, the 10mm is more powerful than the 45 acp. But not more powerful than the 45 Super! Which can be shot out of any modern 45acp with slight improvements.
But the O.P. didn't ask about the ".45 Super," which is the caliber many .45acp users defensively default to when confronted with the obvious energy and velocity disparity between the 10mm AUTO and the .45acp.

It pays dividends to actually read what the O.P. asked about before responding.

Have a day.
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Old 06-29-2011, 21:10   #10
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Explain to me please...how exactly the 45 Super is more powerful than the 10mm?

AFAIK, in terms of muzzle energy they are practically identical. Penetration-wise, the 10 has an advantage because a 200gr 40cal bullet has better SD than a 230gr 45.

As a 10mm fan, I freely admit that for real world purposes they are equal.

So again, how is the 45 Super more powerful?
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Old 06-29-2011, 21:35   #11
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I've read several post indicating the 10mm produces mini-nuke explosions upon impact. Since I don't own one, I cannot verify this.

However, at a max operating pressure of only 21,000, the 45 ACP is a joy to shoot and is the benchmark for auto pistol cartridge stopping power with a century of data to back it up.

Just sayin'...

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Old 06-29-2011, 21:48   #12
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The 10mm offers high velocity AND mass. The .45acp offers mass. Two, in this case, is better than one. So, yes. That said, I have no use for 10mm and choose .45acp and 9mm. "More/Most" and "best/better" can differ.
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Old 06-29-2011, 22:30   #13
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Originally Posted by Glolt20-91 View Post
In handgun calibers, it's the bullet's momentum that's primary . . . not foot pounds of energy!
That is not true. I don't say this as personal opinion, but rather as FACT.

The only thing a momentum model directly relates to is penetration depth. Nothing more.

Lesser or more Kinetic Energy on the other hand is what determines various other factors (temporary stretch cavity size, bullet fragmentation or lack thereof, how hard any given bullet initially strikes a target...).

The main thing to keep in mind regarding JHP bullets is that equal momentum between two different JHP bullets does NOT necessarily equal the same penetration depth, exactly for the reason Glolt20-91 brought up regarding JHP bullets changing in sectional density as they deform ("mushroom"), not to mention the expanded diameter achieved, one JHP design and/or weight compared to another.

Kinetic Energy on the other hand ALWAYS tells you how hard a bullet strikes it's target, no matter what bullet of any kind is being used, as long as you know the impact velocity. On the other hand, in regard to temporary stretch cavity and fragmentation, there are other factors (bullet design/construction, how quickly and to what extent a bullet expands and to what size diameter...) that come into play.
Quote:
Sectional density constantly and rapidly changes during expansion, the .45auto/230gr JHP can expand wider and retain a higher sectional density than the 10mm/180gr JHP.
That can be true, but I doubt always, comparing all JHP bullets across the board. Regardless, it means nothing AS LONG AS whatever bullet in question penetrates as far as you expect it to for whatever given risk assessment you are applying it to.

In other words, and as an example, I doubt there is a single 10mm 180gr JHP load in existence that doesn't penetrate as far as you might like it to. If one doesn't, you're probably looking for a FMJ load anyway to achieve "extreme" penetration depth.
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Old 06-29-2011, 22:38   #14
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Originally Posted by CamHollowPoint1988 View Post
I See Bullet Diameter of the 10mm is 10.16 mm (0.400 in) and the .45acp Bullet Diamter is .452 in (11.5 mm) So the .45acp is the winner in Bullet Diameter.

The Case Length of the 10mm is 25.20 mm (0.992 in) and the .45acp Case Length is .898 in (22.8 mm) it seems that the 10mm is the winner in Case Length.

Just wondering who is truly the more powerful round????? i got this info from wikipedia by the way there is more info on there.

it's like 45acp vs .357 magnum the 45.acp is a larger bullet diamter but the .357 magnum holds a lot more powder in its case then the .45acp.
There is no question the 10mm Auto is by far more powerful than 45 Auto.

This of course assumes we are comparing "full power" 10mm Auto loads to even +P 45 Auto loads. And by "full power" I mean the 10mm Auto loads loaded to 37,500psi. In 45 Auto +P, "full power" equals 23,000psi (21,000psi for non +P). MAJOR difference in and of itself!!!

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Old 06-29-2011, 23:37   #15
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Explain to me please...how exactly the 45 Super is more powerful than the 10mm?

AFAIK, in terms of muzzle energy they are practically identical. Penetration-wise, the 10 has an advantage because a 200gr 40cal bullet has better SD than a 230gr 45.

As a 10mm fan, I freely admit that for real world purposes they are equal.

So again, how is the 45 Super more powerful?
Regardless of what's on paper I will always believe that a 45 Super loaded with a 255 grain bullet at 1070 fps is going to be more powerful than a fully loaded 10mm round. And if the 10mm is so great why is it's sales diminishing? Every year it seems that there are less pistols chambered for 10mm while there are more chambered for 45.

The original poster also mentioned 357 magnum and I just expanded it slightly. since when is this taboo on these boards. It's pretty much normal to expand on the O.P. initial question for the sake of a complete discussion. And I am not seeing the O.P. complaining or asking us to say on track, only YOU.

"It pays dividends to actually read what the O.P. asked about before responding"

OK, I have to ask, What are the great dividends you have gained? Keeping this thread down to narrow selected responses?

And you have a nice day also!!
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Old 06-29-2011, 23:52   #16
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Why is 45 Super being discussed? It was 10mm vs 45 ACP.
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:22   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agtman View Post
Maybe he's not ...

Just using a hammer on those projectile, ... eh Bob?

You give me too much credit, never was fitted with a bionic arm to swing a hammer at 1500fps +.

However, I have had hammer of Thor experiences in .38Super on a charging pitbulls.

One basic definition of power is "the ability to act or produce an effect."

Since you're an LEO, you might be interested in the response to a question regarding the 10mm as an LE carry caliber;

Quote:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1352723

The 10 never caught on the way many thought it would with LE, and like the .41 Magnum, it became a "niche cartridge" more appreciated by expert users than by the general gun owning public.

For that reason, there have been relatively few 10mm shootings compared to 9mm, .40, .45, and even .357 SIG. This, in turn, has left us with a limited data base in terms of street results. Making the problem worse is the fact that so many of the 10mm shootings that did occur were with the subsonic FBI 180 grain load, which is essentially equal to the 180 grain .40 subsonic: certainly good, but not really spectacular.

I always thought the 165 grain JHP at 1300 fps had great potential in the 10mm, but never found a shooting with one, so that remains speculative, and being a conservative old geezer, I no longer speculate when it can be avoided. Clay County, Florida had ProLoad make them up a 180 grain JHP at 1200 feet per second IIRC and were happy with its results, but they've since gone to the .40 S&W (though last I heard, the 10mm was still optional there for those deputies who still wanted to carry them). Not sure what exact bullet was used in that particular 10mm load.

Over the years, the 175 grain Winchester Silvertip at 1250 fps worked well, and we saw dynamic results with it in live animal testing. If I was carrying a 10mm as a personal protection weapon today, that would probably be what i'd load it with.

best,
Mas
You still have not provided any data, perhaps because there is an insufficient database, on the 10mm's ability to produce greater effectiveness, i.e. wound trauma heads-up with the .45auto in personal defense scenarios.

Since 2005 I've tested well over 3,000 rounds of ammo, mostly handloads in handgun calibers, against a number of different barriers such as, wood, lots of automobile/pickup truck sheetmetal, sheet rock, bones etc and came away with the general conclusions that there's parity between the 10mm and .45auto. That being said, I learned to choose the bullet rather than the caliber because there's an overlap between calibers regarding their relative effectiveness . . . the Double Tap gel tests between 9mm/147gr GD vs 10mm/155gr GD as an example previously discussed.

BTW, speaking as a handloader who has chronographed a number of different 200gr XTP, G20/6' barrel loads . . . your 10mm/200gr at1275fps is very optimistic.

Bob
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:04   #18
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I am shocked that someone DARES disparage the Holy 10mm round in public...
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:34   #19
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The down loaded 10mm FBI round is what most companies load the 10mm to.The only round that has some real 10mm effect is the Winchester Silver Tip.The Norma 170 grain was the original round that was used.The FBI Agents were unable to handle the recoil.The .45 ACP +P may work better on humans but the real 10mm is just as powerful as the .41 Magnum.
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Old 06-30-2011, 13:49   #20
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The down loaded 10mm FBI round is what most companies load the 10mm to.The only round that has some real 10mm effect is the Winchester Silver Tip.The Norma 170 grain was the original round that was used.The FBI Agents were unable to handle the recoil.The .45 ACP +P may work better on humans but the real 10mm is just as powerful as the .41 Magnum.
I like the 10mm and have received another 1,000 brass casings from Starline. I was reaching an MV limit of low 1200s/200gr XTP from a G20/6' KKM barrel.

Given that the .41mag/6"/M57 can send 210gr XTPs into the low 1500s; how do you figure the real 10mm is as powerful as the .41mag?

FWIW and using published Hornady data;

10mm/200gr XTP velocity design window is . . . . 700fps to 1200fps
.41mag/210gr XTP velocity design window is . . .1000fps to 1450fps

Nosler data shows loads getting 1650fps from a 10" barrel with their 210gr JHP.

Bob
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