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Old 07-02-2011, 20:50   #121
themighty9mm
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
.

Neither have any of the 12 GLOCK pistols I've owned. Ever. Not in tens of thousands of rounds. Not with me shooting them, or any of the females I've taught to use them. And never have I either witnessed or heard of anyone accidently dropping a magazine out of an auto. And I don't agree that a revolver has a simpler manual of arms. Slap a mag in, cycle the action, done. Simple. One trigger to learn, less recoil, better sights, higher capacity, etc., etc.

You like revolvers, and you'll go to any imaginative lengths to support your position. All I have to do is point out that autos have eclipsed revolvers in sales to civilians, and 100% with Military and LEOs, for decades. That's it.
Military and LEOs also have routine qualifacations, and that means they will be practicing the manual of arms. Most civilians do not. Especially ones not much into guns.

Revolvers also have 1 trigger to learn. If its a SA revolver cock then pull. If DA, then just pull. You have the option to cock but is by no means in any way required. Better sights? Not so much, of course model dependent aswell. The manual of arms with a DA revolver is increadably simple. Open cylinder, load, close, shoot, repeat. Only one catch for the cylinder. Then the trigger. No other buttons, or releases. As far as less recoil. Again model and caliber dependent. Also mag springs can and will wear out. For someone not very into guns, that may very well load it and forget it. A revolver could be a very good thing.

With autos, glocks included. I have witnessed and in some cases experienced a varity a malfunctions. While revolvers can indeed have their own set of problems, IME its a much smaller chance. As far as the mag release being press and mags falling out. While I have not seen it I have accidently held down the slide release. So I can cetainly see a mag release button on accident being pressed.

While I am a big auto fan, revolvers very much so have their place. IMO even more so with people that just dont shoot often. If the OPs lady friend is set on a auto by all means please do. IMO they do reguir a bit more practice, and as a general rule are more maintence dependant. Though revolvers cant exactly go without cleaning and maintence either, they can function dry without much worry of a malfunction. Cant say that about many autos

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Old 07-02-2011, 20:58   #122
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So sorry to hear this, I hope he stays in jail and she is able to get whatever help she needs. Setting the gun issue aside, make sure she has training and the mental preparedness of what defending oneself means. Until then, I'd be a bit nervous of her having a handgun and the chance that it might be used against her.
Additionally, until you can get not only the right gun but the training to go along with it, maybe you could give her some serious pepper spray or mace to so she can at least feel some sort of protection.
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Old 07-02-2011, 21:20   #123
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Additionally, until you can get not only the right gun but the training to go along with it, maybe you could give her some serious pepper spray or mace to so she can at least feel some sort of protection.

I think that would just piss him off.

Get her a gun.

Show her how to use it.

Get her in the right mindset.


Tell her that when (NOT if) he shows up again, it will not be for casual conversation.

Tell her to shoot him!

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Old 07-03-2011, 06:58   #124
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Get her a S&W Model 10 service revolver.
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Old 07-03-2011, 07:44   #125
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Luckily for her Arizona does not require a CCW permit to carry concealed or open, and there are no waiting periods. I'm proud to live in a state where one can enjoy freedom.
Mmmmmmmmmm........the sweet smell of freedom.
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Old 07-03-2011, 08:05   #126
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Questionable advice?

First, never loan firearms to anyone. You are civilly responsible for any damage done with it. If I cut my finger off with a circular saw you loaned me, I sue you. I win. You may also face criminal responsibility for the ciminal misuse of your guns.

While I can't site specific civil cases, Massad Ayoob has warned against guns that can be cocked. First, there are cases of cocked guns going off. The classic case taught in police academies during revolver days was that of an officer holding an individual face down on the ground (no resistance) but the cocked gun discharged into the back of the perp's head. Or, the lawyer says you didn't intend to the pull the trigger as your justificaton wasn't clear but your "hair" trigger caused the discharge.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:15   #127
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Just make sure if she does go semi you teach her the Immediate action drills and let her shoot enough to be totally comfortable with the gun.
If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.

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Military and LEOs also have routine qualifacations, and that means they will be practicing the manual of arms. Most civilians do not. Especially ones not much into guns.
I don't know about Military, but I do know about Michigan State and Detroit Police. They qualify once a year. That's pathetic. When I lived in MI, I used to see cops at the public gun-store range practicing so they could qualify, none of them shot better than the females I taught, not even close.

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Revolvers also have 1 trigger to learn. If its a SA revolver cock then pull. If DA, then just pull. You have the option to cock but is by no means in any way required. Better sights? Not so much, of course model dependent aswell. The manual of arms with a DA revolver is increadably simple. Open cylinder, load, close, shoot, repeat. Only one catch for the cylinder. Then the trigger. No other buttons, or releases. As far as less recoil. Again model and caliber dependent. Also mag springs can and will wear out. For someone not very into guns, that may very well load it and forget it. A revolver could be a very good thing.
Revolvers have one long, heavy trigger to learn. And if someone wants to be accurate without heavy practice, a revolver is bad. A nice G26, with a $.25 trigger job is smooth, light and easy compared to a DA snubbie.

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With autos, glocks included. I have witnessed and in some cases experienced a varity a malfunctions. While revolvers can indeed have their own set of problems, IME its a much smaller chance. As far as the mag release being press and mags falling out. While I have not seen it I have accidently held down the slide release. So I can cetainly see a mag release button on accident being pressed.
And there are ways in whcih a person could screw up using a revolver too, like hitting the cylinder release, so this point is moot. And as far as GLOCK pistols failing, I must admit that despite the fact it hasn't happened to me, I have seen it happen a few times.

Guess the where and why.

At competetive shooting matches where idiots tried to "improve" their pistol with all sorts of after-market crapola, especially magazines. Keep them stock, and most high-quality pistols run trouble free.

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While I am a big auto fan, revolvers very much so have their place. IMO even more so with people that just dont shoot often. If the OPs lady friend is set on a auto by all means please do. IMO they do reguir a bit more practice, and as a general rule are more maintence dependant. Though revolvers cant exactly go without cleaning and maintence either, they can function dry without much worry of a malfunction. Cant say that about many autos
I'm sorry, but my experience and logic takes me in the opposite direction. With the long, heavy trigger pulls of most DA snubbies, the additional recoil and muzzle rise, their crappy sights, the multiple steps in reloading, their low capacity, and their anemic (.38SPL vrs. 9MM) ammo makes small autos better in almost every way for new shooters.

But to each their own. It's all opinion, no one is right or wrong.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:19   #128
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Originally Posted by M&P15T View Post
If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.



I don't know about Military, but I do know about Michigan State and Detroit Police. They qualify once a year. That's pathetic. When I lived in MI, I used to see cops at the range practicing so they could qualify, none of them shot better than the females I taught.



Revolvers have one long, heavy trigger to learn. And if someone wants to be accurate without heavy practice, a revolver is bad. A nice G26, with a $.25 trigger job is smooth, light and easy compared to a DA snubbie.



And there are ways in whcih a person could screw up using a revolver too, like hitting the cylinder release, so this point is moot. And as far as GLOCk pistols failing, I must admit that despite the fact it hasn't happened to me, I have seen it happen a few times.

Guess the where and why.

At competetive shooting matches where idiots tried to "improve" their pistol with all sorts of after-market crapola, especially magazines. Keep them stock, and most high-quality pistols run trouble free.



I'm sorry, but my experience and logic takes me in the opposite direction. With the long, heavy trigger pulls of most DA snubbies, the additional recoil and muzzle rise, their crappy sights, the multiple steps in reloading, their low capacity, and their anemic (.38SPL vrs. 9MM) ammo makes small autos better in almost every way for new shooters.

But to each their own. It's all opinion, no one is right or wrong.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:21   #129
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First, never loan firearms to anyone. You are civilly responsible for any damage done with it. If I cut my finger off with a circular saw you loaned me, I sue you. I win. You may also face criminal responsibility for the ciminal misuse of your guns.

While I can't site specific civil cases, Massad Ayoob has warned against guns that can be cocked. First, there are cases of cocked guns going off. The classic case taught in police academies during revolver days was that of an officer holding an individual face down on the ground (no resistance) but the cocked gun discharged into the back of the perp's head. Or, the lawyer says you didn't intend to the pull the trigger as your justificaton wasn't clear but your "hair" trigger caused the discharge.
Castle Doctrine. No civil responsibility if justifiable SD shooting.

And the OP can just say he gave it to her. Again, more seriously twisted ideas on how the judicial/civil system works. If you really think that someone that gets their fingers cut-off with a borrowed saw is going to win civil damages against the person that loaned it to them, call a lawyer and pretend you've just lost your fingers, and want to sue your friend/neighbor who loaned you the saw.

He'll laugh and hang-up the phone.

Man, there is too much fear of lawyers in here. They're idiots, and can be shut down hard and fast if you're smart. And with Castle Doctrine in many states, there isn't civil liability in SD shooting cases anymore.
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:23   #130
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:26   #131
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There has been some good advice here on firearms, I too agree that if she doesn't have any firearm experience to start her off with a small revolver. If she is willing to familiarize herself with a semi-auto, then by all means help her out.

But as others have said, make sure she is comfortable with the function, and has prepared herself mentally to be willing to use this kind of force if need be. I would also recommend counseling, and training her for proper use of force, so if she does see this scum again that the first thing she does isn't to instantly pull out her weapon and/or fire.

Sorry to hear about this, I don't know how anybody could treat another person like this.
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:14   #132
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If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.
It really has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Ammo can and does fail, mags do fail, people do limp wrist autos and the gun will fail. If you're going to shoot a semi you need to learn "Tap, Rack, Bang" or don't use a semi.
Even if there's only a .1% chance of something going wrong you need to be ready for the .1% chance.
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:17   #133
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Wow - lot's to think about here. Interesting on "What if..." level. What would I do for such a person? Hard to give my best answer....lot's of assumptions. Let me see if I can hit the high points.

#1 CAREFULLY consider even getting involved in the first place. As was mentioned by many - the frame of mind / wellness of the person in question is a HIGH concern. You have no idea how/why this woman is involved with this guy. But let's go here...

Best Case Scenario: She was completely wronged by the accused. He is crazy. If it gets to him that you are assisting in her protection, you and yours are now in his sights potentially.

Worst Case: She is a damaged person who will forever be beaten and abused by those involved. You are wasting your time.

Strange Case: She is now psycho and you will be implicated for her plotted murder of the guy wether he is found guilty or not. Can you get hung for this? I doubt it, but I don't know. Can it be a hassle? Oh yes.

Domestic violence happens for a reason - Not the first reason, but the biggest is that women allow it. Not saying they can't change. But I have sat in that court room on a jury watching police time and tax payer dollars get flushed down the drain...

#2 Counseling, legal dotting of i's and crossing of t's, and layers of protection. One of the best threads here. That advice ALWAYS applies. Way better than the details of this vs that firearm. Move / hide / change the numbers, restraining orders, alarm systems, dog, good doors/locks/windows etc...go very very far.

Assuming that she is correct in her presentation (and I don't know - so I'm devil's advocating), she should be doing ALL of that as well. Better for him to not get in than get in and the shoot decision need made in the first place. Of course, if she invites him in to discuss things...all for nothing. By the way - new locks are expensive. If she hasn't prioritized these things and the money for them - she needs to get her head right.

#3 Which gun? I have said this a ton, and I'll say it again. For home defense:

The number one thing you need is a PLAN. More important than any specific weapon.

The plan should ideally be: Sit in safe room with 12g (or 20g...) and a cell phone pointed at the only entrance/choke point and wait for the po-po.

I honestly don't care what the gun is. This is more important than any of it. Once the use of the gun comes into play - all kinds of facors at work. Let's avoid it and stay safe before it even gets to that. But if it gets there - lt's keep us, the neighbors and everyone else involved/informed/safe!

#3 If we go gun, and we do have a plan, etc... #1 issue is willing to get the skill. The cost of a gun - let's not even worry about the semi v wheel factor is nothing. The number one way to skill and competency is time on trigger. Time on trigger requires a range and ammo. I'd generally say a cheaper gun and more ammo is better than an expensive gun and no ammo. But how many rounds to you think are needed for basic self defense competency? I'll throw out 2000 (low # imo). In 9mm WWB from wally-world, that's roughly $500 - not including the range time if needed, or the gun. Or the time to shoot!

As was said about mindset, she claims this, but as always, $$$ comes into play. As a prepper, I always say better to have something cheap and now, than a plan to buy something expensive when you need it. But you can't discount that to use the Nasal Pharyngeal Tube you need training...and it's pretty useless without it.

If she isn't going to train, better to invest in the locks etc, IMO. But there is a cost to safety. Check out what it REALLY is.

I always do this drill at the range; The VERY FIRST SHOTS of ANY trip: Wife (or me) closes eyes, puts gun in hand, and I put the target somewhere closer/farther. Tap on the shoulder and open and shoot. Would you have STOPPED the threat? For fun, add a snap cap, hand the gun is less than good to go, or mag out etc...and run the clock. It will make you think...

Training basic/active shooting is a second great idea. But again, $$$.

#5 OK - we are all the way here. Which gun?

I still say, if we are in Home defense mode, dollar for dollar, effectiveness overall, amount of practice to competency, the all around winner will be the Shotgun. Less expensive gun, long gun for accuracy benefit, shot factor for slightly larger window on effectiveness, easier to gain competency in less rounds of practice, than ANY handgun.

If we are going handgun - I honestly don't care. But like I said - see the "skill" factor above. I can put a 12/20g in someone's hands, run my little range drill and get them extremely effective in hundreds of rounds - not thousands. The complexity factor of a semi is a factor. The barrel length/trigger/grip on short revolvers is an even bigger factor.

I'd say go semi in general. The reliability factor is ONLY an issue if you haven't actually tested the reliability. Old timers need to let go of that. My USP has NEVER failed. It will put more lead down range, faster, on target than ANY revolver you can put against it. I know every mag works perfectly. I know the gun works flawlessly. But I have trained with it extensively. Including tap/rack/bang, mag changes, etc...

Revolvers also have problems - they CAN fail. When they do, tap/rack/bang doesn't make them go again. My main issue with a revolvers (and don't get me wrong - love them!) *assuming short barrel...
#1 Short barrel - practice can overcome anything, but a nice 4-5" barrel on a semi is a good thing when it comes to hitting a target.
#2 Trigger - tough triggers mess up accuracy period. Hard to beat a semi in SA mode.
#3 Capacity - hopefully you won't need it, but you can't use it if you don't have it.
#4 Sights - see number one - especially if short barreled.

Yes practice can overcome any of these. But again, you need to practice. A DAO, 5 shot, short barrel.


I know a lot of this is assuming that carry is not the issue, and snub is the choice...

Still a lot of issues before the specific gun even comes into play....

Intersting situation Good luck. My sister in law (who is of questionable judgement) calls people who she has been to their house once to deliver a party invitation "friends" if they have a nice foyer. Just a final thought.

For the record - as a husband and father of a daughter: If this dude behaved as it was stated...I think death penalty is appropriate much more so than jail. Nothing burns me more than my $$$ paying to feed human waste and scum like that.

Good luck.
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:18   #134
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It really has nothing to do with the quality of the gun. Ammo can and does fail, mags do fail, people do limp wrist autos and the gun will fail. If you're going to shoot a semi you need to learn "Tap, Rack, Bang" or don't use a semi.
Even if there's only a .1% chance of something going wrong you need to be ready for the .1% chance.
Amen! Did you not just read that my USP has NEVER failed (multiple unknown thousands of rounds) yet I still do those things!
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:24   #135
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For someone who has nothing more than a passive interest in a firearm there is nothing simpler to operate than a revolver. Load, close the cylinder and shoot. The difficulty of the double action trigger pull is being over exaggerated and easily mastered. As is the issue of recoil which can be regulated with ammo selection and an all steel gun. Avoid the alloy frames.

Would I force a revolver on her? No! But I sure would have take a look at them.
If she is willing to put the training in, a bottom feeder could be a good choice as well.

Choosing a firearm is a personal decision. Too many of you guys think what's best for you is best for everyone. She should be given some guidance and be able to handle and perhaps test fire some of the different platforms out there to find what she likes. As hard as it may be for some of you people to understand there are many good weapons out there besides Glock. It may be right for you but wrong for someone else. Revolvers and autoloaders from all respectable manufacturers should be considered.
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Old 07-03-2011, 10:35   #136
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If a quality auto is purchased, there's virtually no need to learn any drills.

Always a need to learn failure drills if you plan on counting on a machine to save your life

I don't know about Military, but I do know about Michigan State and Detroit Police. They qualify once a year. That's pathetic. When I lived in MI, I used to see cops at the public gun-store range practicing so they could qualify, none of them shot better than the females I taught, not even close.

I always heard it was once every 6 months. In my years of going to public ranges, only 1 time could I identify a guy as a cop I think he was just in training at that. Guess I should have said any cops thats wanting to go home at the end of the shift.

Revolvers have one long, heavy trigger to learn. And if someone wants to be accurate without heavy practice, a revolver is bad. A nice G26, with a $.25 trigger job is smooth, light and easy compared to a DA snubbie.

See I find IME I am more accurate in DAO. Now I relize its not the same for everyone. I also have found out of the box w/o mucking with the internals revolvers have a better (smoother crisper) trigger than many autos. The exception being taurus.

And there are ways in whcih a person could screw up using a revolver too, like hitting the cylinder release, so this point is moot. And as far as GLOCK pistols failing, I must admit that despite the fact it hasn't happened to me, I have seen it happen a few times.
But its far less likely to hit anything or screw anything up with less controls
Guess the where and why.

At competetive shooting matches where idiots tried to "improve" their pistol with all sorts of after-market crapola, especially magazines. Keep them stock, and most high-quality pistols run trouble free.
I do agree. I have found though, IMOE. The chances of a revolver experiencing any issues related to jams are few. Not saying it doesnt happen. I know they do. When the do its far more complex than racking the slide or removing the mag. But the chance of it happening at all are more slim, than with a auto


I'm sorry, but my experience and logic takes me in the opposite direction. With the long, heavy trigger pulls of most DA snubbies, the additional recoil and muzzle rise, their crappy sights, the multiple steps in reloading, their low capacity, and their anemic (.38SPL vrs. 9MM) ammo makes small autos better in almost every way for new shooters.

The DA pull on most revolvers is very easy to learn. No different than learning the spongy trigger on a glock. Low capacity, you have my there. However the chance of most civilian going through 6-7 rounds in a gunfight are very slim. So that point is almost moot. Multiple steps? Open cylider, insert bullets, close, shoot. Or extract mag, insert mag, slam slide home, shoot. I dont agree with 38spl being anemic. No more so than 9mm. 9mm may travel faster but thith 38 you can get heavier bullets. So it will kinda turn into a 45acp vs 9mm. And that point will be moot. As far as sights. Some revolvers have IMO, sights far better than any stock auto. Recoil and muzzle rise is greatly dependant on weight and caliber.
But to each their own. It's all opinion, no one is right or wrong.
I agree, I am a fan of both. Both have their positives and negatives. As long as whatever the lady gets she works with a good bit, she should be fine

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Old 07-03-2011, 10:54   #137
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I'd get at least 3 trips in at a local pistol range with her, let her determine what weapon she likes and can operate efficiently.
If she likes he semi auto, guns like the G19 and 3913 would be excellent.
In a revolver, a medium frame like the K frame .38sp or Ruger's GP100 are excellent loaded with a decent .38sp. Make sure she learns to shoot DA.
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Old 07-03-2011, 11:05   #138
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CDNN is practically giving away Sig p250s. As far as semis go, that would be the best to learn with.
This is the gun my wife carries. 17rds(16 rd mags) and a not too bad DA trigger pull. I spent some time with her teaching her about malfunction clearances and why you carry a spare mag and we are good to go!!!I hope she never has a malfunction, but if she does, she is proficient in clearing any of them.

We put over 500 rds (400 WWB and 100rds 124"P Golddots) through it before we let her carry it. Before that it was an SP101 DAO for her EDC.
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Old 07-03-2011, 12:45   #139
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Did not read all the posts so sorry if has been discussed. Get the restraining order. Buying a gun and throwing it in the drawer may get her killed. Most women hate violence and would hesitate shooting someone, giving him time to wrest the gun away and using it on her before or even after being shot himself. Be very careful. Mace, tazer, 911, close neighbors on speed dial. Consider other options as well. Preparation and exercise to the point of not thinking about it is the best way to avoid freezing in a high stress situation. He needs to be prosecuted. Any cop will tell you that the domestic calls are the most dangerous by far. Hope all works out OK.
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Old 07-03-2011, 13:01   #140
BAILIFF
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: I'm over here now.
Posts: 5,692
Quote:
Originally Posted by TexAg View Post
S&W Model 10 trade in or used. Load it up or down. Easy to train on and remember. My wife qualified with a G19, but she feels more comfortable with a revolver. Easier manual of arms. Model 10s can be found all over for under $300. It's a great loaner gun. All steel keeps the recoil down too.
Four pages for the right answer...sheesh.

The stainless version, the 64, with a round butt. 2, 3, or 4 inch barrel.
If you can find one of the old NY-1 spurless, even better.
Stick a Tyler T Grip in there or a set of Hogue's, good to go.

General Firearms Forum

Last edited by BAILIFF; 07-03-2011 at 13:02..
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