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Old 08-29-2012, 12:50   #226
Bren
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Originally Posted by jmchaney View Post
I completely agree with this. My reply was to the implication that a defender could be charged with negligence, for shooting an attacker, by using a light trigger.
Exactly my point - you placed limits on your response that ignore the areas where a light trigger could really be a problem. Like others have already said, if you intentionally shoot a person you are clearly justified in shooting, there's no problem.

On the other hand, take a look at the NYPD shootout at the Empire State Building - they had a justified reason to shoot, but (maybe even because of extra-heavy triggers) they hit the person they were justified in shooting and bullets or fragments also hit 9 other people. They could be subject to criminal charges and WILL be subject to civil liability for those shootings. Whether it's an extra heavy NY trigger or a light competition trigger - if you fire 3 rounds at an armed robber and one hits the convenience store clerk, you can bet that civil or criminal attorneys will raise the trigger issue (if they have a gun expert to talk to) as a reason the one shot missed (whether it was or not).
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Old 08-29-2012, 19:06   #227
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I just bought a Glock 23 Gen 3 with the absolute sweetest and lightest trigger I have ever felt on ANY Glock. The trigger was probably 90% of the reason why I bought it. It's a used gun. Well used in fact.

So let's say for the sake of this thread that lord forbid I am forced into shooting someone to defend myself or others with said Glock 23. Am I to then be prosecuted over the pull weight and reset of my trigger? I would not think so. At least not in Florida. However, I purchased this gun USED. It came this way, and no one can say or every really prove at what point in the guns lifespan who did what to it.

I think the whole premise is ridiculous personally. I am not a lawyer or an expert, but I am giving my opinion on the subject at hand.

One would think that a "good shoot" was a "good shoot" regardless of what was used in the shooting. What if I just got back from Elk hunting and I all had was my .300 Winchester Magnum rifle at hand. Will I be prosecuted for "overkill" and using a big game rifle on a human being? Where does it end? At what point do we not defend ourselves at all?

Most people wouldn't know a Glock from a 1911 from a Colt Python. How then exactly would they even ascertain such a thing as the trigger had been changed etc? I am curious about that much.
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Old 08-30-2012, 03:58   #228
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Originally Posted by jmchaney View Post
If one justifiably fires a weapon intentionally, explain how that can be easily charged as negligent manslaughter?
Easy.

Mr.Prosecutor: "Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, we will prove to you, through evidence, labratory findings and expert witnesses, that Mr. Jmchaney purposefully modified the trigger mechanism of his gun, to wit a DEADLY WEAPON, there by creating a more DANGEROUS and DEADLY GUN By doing so, Mr. Jmchaney did recklessly and negligently create a 'hair trigger effect'. We will prove to you that on the day that he fired his modified and unsafe gun and took the life of Mr. Transient, he did so not out of justifiable self defense, but by accident because of his unrealistic and unjustifiable fear of becoming a victim of a crime, which led him to point his unsafe 'hair trigger' modified gun at Mr. Transient, and did recklessly and negligently discharge that gun, taking the life of another human being who's only crime was to be destitute and was begging for spare change when he approached Mr. Jmchaney carrying his death gun."

(I'm sure one or both of my Deputy D.A. friends could have come up with a much better worded argument).

Now the Hook is set and it'll be up to you and your defense team to un-set that Hook and prove to the Judge and Jury otherwise.
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Old 08-30-2012, 04:54   #229
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Hey, I know. It's because if one justificably fires a weapon intentionally, but also negligently hits someone they weren't justified in shooting, the justifications, such as self-defense, do not prevent conviction for criminal charges that involve negligence or wantoness, like negligent homicde (or many others).
We don't have to concern ourselves with this in my state. If you are put in a situation where you must use deadly force and an innocent third party is struck by one of your rounds, it is the assailant who will be charged, not you. This doesn't mean that you are sure to escape civil litigation, but you will not be charge with a crime for injuries or death of the innocent bystander if your use of deadly force was excusable.
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Old 08-30-2012, 05:02   #230
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Easy.

Mr.Prosecutor: "Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, we will prove to you, through evidence, labratory findings and expert witnesses, that Mr. Jmchaney purposefully modified the trigger mechanism of his gun, to wit a DEADLY WEAPON, there by creating a more DANGEROUS and DEADLY GUN By doing so, Mr. Jmchaney did recklessly and negligently create a 'hair trigger effect'. We will prove to you that on the day that he fired his modified and unsafe gun and took the life of Mr. Transient, he did so not out of justifiable self defense, but by accident because of his unrealistic and unjustifiable fear of becoming a victim of a crime, which led him to point his unsafe 'hair trigger' modified gun at Mr. Transient, and did recklessly and negligently discharge that gun, taking the life of another human being who's only crime was to be destitute and was begging for spare change when he approached Mr. Jmchaney carrying his death gun."

(I'm sure one or both of my Deputy D.A. friends could have come up with a much better worded argument).

Now the Hook is set and it'll be up to you and your defense team to un-set that Hook and prove to the Judge and Jury otherwise.
This is not something that would take place in Virginia because we have an affirmative defense. IF a prosecutor tried this tactic, your attorney is going to put you on the stand (he will and should anyway if he's any good) and will ask the following.

HIM: "Mr. Jones, did you shoot Mr. Smith on the night of May 21 of this year?"
YOU: "Yes I did."
HIM: "Can you tell the court why you shot Mr. Smith?"
YOU: " I was in imminent fear of serious harm to myself."
HIM: "Let me ask you this. Were you to be faced with the same set of circumstances again that you were on that night, would you react in the same fashion? Would you shoot Mr. Smith again?"
YOU: "Absolutely."

Now let a prosecutor try to show that your actions were accidental or negligent. Hell, you just freely affirmed that you shot the man and would do so again given the same situation.
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Old 08-30-2012, 05:10   #231
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Originally Posted by RedsoxFan4Lyfe View Post
I just bought a Glock 23 Gen 3 with the absolute sweetest and lightest trigger I have ever felt on ANY Glock. The trigger was probably 90% of the reason why I bought it. It's a used gun. Well used in fact.

So let's say for the sake of this thread that lord forbid I am forced into shooting someone to defend myself or others with said Glock 23. Am I to then be prosecuted over the pull weight and reset of my trigger? I would not think so. At least not in Florida. However, I purchased this gun USED. It came this way, and no one can say or every really prove at what point in the guns lifespan who did what to it.

I think the whole premise is ridiculous personally. I am not a lawyer or an expert, but I am giving my opinion on the subject at hand.

One would think that a "good shoot" was a "good shoot" regardless of what was used in the shooting. What if I just got back from Elk hunting and I all had was my .300 Winchester Magnum rifle at hand. Will I be prosecuted for "overkill" and using a big game rifle on a human being? Where does it end? At what point do we not defend ourselves at all?

Most people wouldn't know a Glock from a 1911 from a Colt Python. How then exactly would they even ascertain such a thing as the trigger had been changed etc? I am curious about that much.
You seem to have completely missed the point of the thread. And yes, your light trigger would likely be used to explain why you were negligent or reckless, if your shots hits someone you didn't mean to shoot.
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Old 08-30-2012, 06:36   #232
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Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Easy.

Mr.Prosecutor: "Your Honor, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury, we will prove to you, through evidence, labratory findings and expert witnesses, that Mr. Jmchaney purposefully modified the trigger mechanism of his gun, to wit a DEADLY WEAPON, there by creating a more DANGEROUS and DEADLY GUN By doing so, Mr. Jmchaney did recklessly and negligently create a 'hair trigger effect'. We will prove to you that on the day that he fired his modified and unsafe gun and took the life of Mr. Transient, he did so not out of justifiable self defense, but by accident because of his unrealistic and unjustifiable fear of becoming a victim of a crime, which led him to point his unsafe 'hair trigger' modified gun at Mr. Transient, and did recklessly and negligently discharge that gun, taking the life of another human being who's only crime was to be destitute and was begging for spare change when he approached Mr. Jmchaney carrying his death gun."

(I'm sure one or both of my Deputy D.A. friends could have come up with a much better worded argument).

Now the Hook is set and it'll be up to you and your defense team to un-set that Hook and prove to the Judge and Jury otherwise.
Well, If I shoot someone for just begging for change, then I need to be prosecuted. In that case though, it will not be the prosecutor bringing up the light trigger. It will be my defense presenting it, in a desperate attempt to escape a murder conviction, by showing the shooting was an accident.

However, if you are suggesting that an otherwise justified self-defense shooting (where the shooter asserts that he fired in self-defense) could be prosecuted as a negligent accident, your imagination is in overdrive.
You will have to show me where a prosecutor was that big of a fool.
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Old 08-30-2012, 15:44   #233
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So let's say for the sake of this thread that lord forbid I am forced into shooting someone to defend myself or others with said Glock 23. Am I to then be prosecuted over the pull weight and reset of my trigger?
You are correct. You will never be prosecuted "over the pull weight and(or) reset" of the trigger - that is because there is no legal requirement for a particular weight or reset.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxFan4Lyfe View Post
I think the whole premise is ridiculous personally. I am not a lawyer or an expert, but I am giving my opinion on the subject at hand.
There a are several people who are lawyers and SME's/expert witnesses who don't think that the whole premise is ridiculous; and have actually experienced the issues that some modifications on carry/duty firearms can create at trial. The "sticky" thread has several cases.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxFan4Lyfe View Post
One would think that a "good shoot" was a "good shoot" regardless of what was used in the shooting.
In an ideal world, every case would be very "clear cut" regarding if a shooting is justified or not. In the real world, for many cases, it is not readily apparent if a shooting is justified, or not. That is where the issue under discussion, and others, can come into play at trial. And "you" don't get to decide if it is a "good shoot" or not.


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Originally Posted by RedsoxFan4Lyfe View Post
What if I just got back from Elk hunting and I all had was my .300 Winchester Magnum rifle at hand. Will I be prosecuted for "overkill" and using a big game rifle on a human being?
You will not be prosecuted for "over kill" or using a rifle on a human being - as these actions are not against the law (assuming of course that the possession of the firearm by you was legal in that location) . You might be prosecuted for an illegal act - such as homicide, assault with a deadly weapon, etc. The weapon you used might be an issue at trial. If you were in your home and "I all had was my .300 Winchester Magnum rifle at hand" - it might be an easily "explainable" issue. If you made a habit of carrying your 300 win mag everyday walking down the street in downtown Denver, it might be more difficult to explain.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxFan4Lyfe View Post
Most people wouldn't know a Glock from a 1911 from a Colt Python. How then exactly would they even ascertain such a thing as the trigger had been changed etc? I am curious about that much.
The prosecution will have expert witnesses examine your firearm - and possibly testify at trial or deposition. They will know the difference in a 1911 and a Python - and if a firearm has been modified. That means that you have to have an expert witness to counter their testimony.
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Old 08-30-2012, 17:52   #234
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You seem to have completely missed the point of the thread. And yes, your light trigger would likely be used to explain why you were negligent or reckless, if your shots hits someone you didn't mean to shoot.
With all due respect here. Wouldn't any of us a a CCW holder be in a world of sh** if one or more of our rounds went astray and struck and then injured or killed an innocent bystander? I would think at that point you would be in very deep trouble regardless of anything else. Trigger work, box stock, anything in between we would be up the creek.

Perhaps I'll leave the light triggered Glock in the safe and keep my stock Glock 19 for social use.
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Old 08-30-2012, 20:33   #235
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Anything can be made an issue. Those that think a modified trigger can't be made an issue have obviously never attended many if any superior court trials. The most insignificant things can be made an issue. I wouldn't make any mod to a carry gun that wasn't approved by Glock.
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Old 08-30-2012, 22:03   #236
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Originally Posted by jmchaney View Post
Well, If I shoot someone for just begging for change, then I need to be prosecuted. In that case though, it will not be the prosecutor bringing up the light trigger. It will be my defense presenting it, in a desperate attempt to escape a murder conviction, by showing the shooting was an accident.

However, if you are suggesting that an otherwise justified self-defense shooting (where the shooter asserts that he fired in self-defense) could be prosecuted as a negligent accident, your imagination is in overdrive.
You will have to show me where a prosecutor was that big of a fool.
I'll try and make this more simple for you:

Your response: I fired my gun in self-defense.

Prosecutor's response: Because of your unreasonable fear of being attacked and because you negligently modified your gun and set up a "hair trigger" effect, you accidentally fired your gun when lethal force was not justified.

In nearly every state of this Union, the act of shooting someone in SD is an "affirmative action"; an intentional act.

The act of intentionally pointing a loaded firearm at another person and having that firearm discharge "accidentally" is the epitome of negligence and recklessness, and if that person you shoot dies, that is considered criminal homicide, be it manslaughter or maybe even murder depending on the state's laws.

Once again, it'll be up to you and/or your attorney to prove otherwise.

As for a case cite, research State of Florida v Officer Luis Alvarez.

The prosecutor tried to accuse the officer of thumb-cocking his revolver, thus setting up a "hair trigger" and accidentally shooting the armed gang-banger he was trying to take into custody when he actually intentionally fired his revolver double-action when the gang-banger reached for his gun.
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Old 08-30-2012, 22:25   #237
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With all due respect here. Wouldn't any of us a a CCW holder be in a world of sh** if one or more of our rounds went astray and struck and then injured or killed an innocent bystander? I would think at that point you would be in very deep trouble regardless of anything else. Trigger work, box stock, anything in between we would be up the creek.

Perhaps I'll leave the light triggered Glock in the safe and keep my stock Glock 19 for social use.
In California we are covered criminally by PC 195.1, Excusible Homicide. Civilly we're Boned, just like everyone else.
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Old 08-31-2012, 11:18   #238
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I'll try and make this more simple for you:

Your response: I fired my gun in self-defense.

Prosecutor's response: Because of your unreasonable fear of being attacked and because you negligently modified your gun and set up a "hair trigger" effect, you accidentally fired your gun when lethal force was not justified.

In nearly every state of this Union, the act of shooting someone in SD is an "affirmative action"; an intentional act.

The act of intentionally pointing a loaded firearm at another person and having that firearm discharge "accidentally" is the epitome of negligence and recklessness, and if that person you shoot dies, that is considered criminal homicide, be it manslaughter or maybe even murder depending on the state's laws.

Once again, it'll be up to you and/or your attorney to prove otherwise.

As for a case cite, research State of Florida v Officer Luis Alvarez.

The prosecutor tried to accuse the officer of thumb-cocking his revolver, thus setting up a "hair trigger" and accidentally shooting the armed gang-banger he was trying to take into custody when he actually intentionally fired his revolver double-action when the gang-banger reached for his gun.
If I shoot someone when lethal force is not justified, you better believe I want it to be an accident. However, if I am justified in using deadly force in defense, it doesn't matter how the shot is fired, even if Casper the ghost pulls the trigger. How could it be otherwise?

I have researched the Alvarez case. He was not charged for accidentally shooting Neville Johnson, he was charged because the shooting was not justified. Witnesses said Johnson was shot down for no reason. Alvarez, in his radio transmission stated someone bumped him and a shot "just went off". The investigating detective testified Alvarez said the victim's hands were in front of him at the time, and made no mention of self-defense. An article from the Miami Herald at the time stated "Initial police reports state that Alvarez's cocked revolver accidentally fired when he reached for the suspect's gun in his waistband". The prosecutor did not "accuse" Alvarez of cocking his revolver, he only used Alvarez's own statement.
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Old 08-31-2012, 14:35   #239
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Anything can be made an issue. Those that think a modified trigger can't be made an issue have obviously never attended many if any superior court trials. The most insignificant things can be made an issue. I wouldn't make any mod to a carry gun that wasn't approved by Glock.
This is why one should consult with an attorney who has experience defending victims who have used deadly force to protect themselves, who is knowledgeable about statute and case law, and who is a Second Amendment supporter and is pro-gun. What may be true in one state is not necessarily true in others.
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Old 08-31-2012, 15:39   #240
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With all due respect here. Wouldn't any of us a a CCW holder be in a world of sh** if one or more of our rounds went astray and struck and then injured or killed an innocent bystander? I would think at that point you would be in very deep trouble regardless of anything else. Trigger work, box stock, anything in between we would be up the creek.
Yes, you'd be in trouble - how much trouble depends on how much at fault you are perceived as being. Shooting in an emergency and doing the best job you can, under the circumstances, will still probably end up with you paying something if you hit a bystander or victim, but even then, the amount awarded will depend on how much a jury blames you. That's without even getting into the plaintiff trying to prove gross negligence and get punitive damages.

Then there is apportionment - the award, in most states, is divided between everybody involved - the guy who got shot, the guy you were shooting at, and you, and relative fault is decided. It might turn out, if you shot your safe, stock gun in necessary self-defense, the jury decides you are 0-25% at fault. So if the guy who got shot is 5% at fault and you are 25% at fault and the criminal is 70% at fault and the award is $1,000,000, you owe the plaintiff $250,000 and he'll never collect the rest.

However the Plaintiff's attorney only wants you at fault because you probably have things like a job, maybe homeowners insurance is involved, maybe you own a house, etc. - the bad guy is worth $0. So the Plaintiff's attorney wants to make YOU look as negligent as possible, or else he can't collect enough to cover what he has spent on the case. He's going to argue you shouldn't have shot and the bad guy would have left peacefully and nobody would have gotten hurt. That's where things like your training and modified trigger and such will come into play.
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Old 08-31-2012, 15:45   #241
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In California we are covered criminally by PC 195.1, Excusible Homicide. Civilly we're Boned, just like everyone else.
Not everyone else. In many states, like KY and Florida, if you are justified in using force, then you are also immune from suit and if someone sues you and you are determined to be justifed, they have to pay for your attorney and costs.
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Old 08-31-2012, 17:28   #242
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Not everyone else. In many states, like KY and Florida, if you are justified in using force, then you are also immune from suit and if someone sues you and you are determined to be justifed, they have to pay for your attorney and costs.
Yeah, I should have said "almost everyone". But let's not forget the possibility of a federal civil rights lawsuit, especially with certain "minority" groups.
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Old 09-01-2012, 05:48   #243
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Yeah, I should have said "almost everyone". But let's not forget the possibility of a federal civil rights lawsuit, especially with certain "minority" groups.
While that is possible, if you were tried and acquitted in a criminal trial and it was clear your actions were excusable, a civil case is going to be hard to mount. Unfortunately in your example, I fear there is a greater chance of something like that happening than in a "normal" suit. Not only is this a shame, but it flies in the face of the Constitution.
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Old 09-15-2012, 08:02   #244
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Btw

I shot my G17 with the 3.5 connector in a small shooting match in Keene, NH. I fired 55 rounds with no ADs or NDs.
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:16   #245
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I shoot very well with the standard connector, but I shoot better with the 3.5 connector. Is there anything wrong with that? Let's say that I can shoot a four-inch group at 50 feet with the standard connector, but the group shrinks to three-inches with the 3.5 connector. Which connector would the responsible man use? And no, no one will ever successfully accuse me of "accidentally" shooting anyone.
Is it worth the questioning for such a small gain ?
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:23   #246
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Is it worth the questioning for such a small gain ?
Yes, it is. If I can hit a 3-inch wide target at 50 feet with my G17 (with 3.5 connector), rather than 4-inch wide target, then it is worth it.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:33   #247
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If you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector, then that is a very good reason to use it. If a defence attorney or prosecutor asks you why you have a 3.5 lb connector, you can truthfully say that you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector.

"nuff said.


In a situation where the shooting is legally justified, and “accidental/negligent discharge” is not at issue, how would a Prosecutor’s question concerning “why you have a 3.5 lb connector” be relevant and admissible? In my opinion, a competent defense attorney would have anticipated that line of questioning and filed a pretrial Motion In Limine, precluding the Prosecutor from asking that type of question.

But then, I believe that far too many attorneys are lazy, incompetent and have no business litigating civil and/or criminal cases. On the whole, I am fairly contemptuous of the competency of the legal profession. A lot of attorneys take cases because the cases pay money and the fact that the attorney is not sufficiently experienced and competent in the relevant area of law, unfortunately, rarely enters into their decision making process and the poor unsuspecting/ignorant client gets screwed.

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Old 09-15-2012, 13:18   #248
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Originally Posted by RJ's Guns View Post
In a situation where the shooting is legally justified, and “accidental/negligent discharge” is not at issue, how would a Prosecutor’s question concerning “why you have a 3.5 lb connector” be relevant and admissible? In my opinion, a competent defense attorney would have anticipated that line of questioning and filed a pretrial Motion In Limine, precluding the Prosecutor from asking that type of question.

But then, I believe that far too many attorneys are lazy, incompetent and have no business litigating civil and/or criminal cases. On the whole, I am fairly contemptuous of the competency of the legal profession. A lot of attorneys take cases because the cases pay money and the fact that the attorney is not sufficiently experienced and competent in the relevant area of law, unfortunately, rarely enters into their decision making process and the poor unsuspecting/ignorant client gets screwed.

RJ
One almost has to have a law degree to read and understand this . . . .
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Old 09-17-2012, 13:27   #249
RJ's Guns
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Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
One almost has to have a law degree to read and understand this . . . .

I will try to clarify what I am saying;

In a situation where the shooting is legally justified (and that depends on the particular facts of the case and the law in the jurisdiction where the shooting occurred) and the shooter INTENDED to shoot the bad guy, and "accidental discharge", is not at issue (such as the shooter did not INTEND to shoot the bad guy, for example, the weapon was fired"accidentally") how would it be legally relevant and admissible at trial, how much, or how little, physical effort it takes to pull the trigger. If the shooter INTENDED to fire the firearm, how is it relevant and admissible,whether it took 3/10 of a pound or 30 pounds of pressure to pull the trigger?The relevant issues at trial are the shooter’s INTENT and whether or not the shooting is legally justified, and not the amount of effort, or lack thereof, that it took to pull the trigger.

The purpose of a Motion In Limine is keep out irrelevant and prejudicial information. If the Court Grants the Motion In Limine, (and I cannot understand why, in the situation I address above, that the Court would not Grant the Motion) the prosecutor cannot raise or refer to the prohibited areas during Opening or Closing, nor ask witnesses such questions or refer to such prohibited issues in the presence of the Jury.

I would be interested to learn, whether or not the attorneys representing the shooters in cases where the amount of effort required to fire the weapon, was admitted into evidence (unless it was a situation where the shooter did not INTEND to fire the weapon and the weapon was discharged"accidentally"), had filed Motion In Limines addressing those issues concerning the amount of effort required to fire the weapon (and I would be highly critical of any attorney that failed to do so). If so, I would be even more interested to learn the Court's basis for denying the motion.
RJ
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Old 09-17-2012, 15:24   #250
glockfan2327
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Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
I won't be surprised if quite a few people say they use that combo. I've seen at least one guy on YouTube say it.

How tight a group do you need for a defensive pistol? A hair trigger is always going to be a better shooter. Doesn't mean it's a good idea for carry.
a hair trigger lmao , I bet you gonna vote for Obama
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