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Old 05-21-2011, 14:44   #21
txinvestigator
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
You assume a justified shooting. However, CCWers may occasionally negligently fire off a round in the Wal Mart or on the street, or maybe miss the bad guy and hit somebody else, or foolishly mess up a justified self-defense shooting by saying something dumb like "I didn't mean to shoot, I was only holding him at gunpoint" for an instantly unjustified shooting.

Those are the times when a modified gun, especially one with a lighter trigger, is a big, big problem.
Not necessarily disagreeing, but how do you see missing the bad guy being any different with a modified trigger rather than a standard one? Or how does saying you didn't mean to shoot change your justification? What "big big problems" could that cause?

Again, if you are justified you are justified, regardless of trigger. If you are NOT justified then you are not. Having a super light trigger might cause you to fire when you shouldn't have, but that is no different than having your finger on the trigger when you should not and firing when you should not because of it.

If anyone has any examples of someone convicted because of a modified trigger. . .
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Old 05-22-2011, 12:14   #22
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If anyone has any examples of someone convicted because of a modified trigger. . .
Strawman Alert! As has been pointed out numerous times by folks who have actually done it, a modification is is not going to be the independent cause of a conviction. However, it can be one variable among many, and it is a variable where the cost almost always outweighs the benefit. Rarely will a single issue get a person convicted, it is almost always a combination of issues. And even if one does not get convicted it doesn't mean there haven't been problems.
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Old 05-22-2011, 12:43   #23
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Not sure you're right... you are referring to the Seventh obviously.. but here are some highlights:

The Seventh Amendment (Amendment VII) to the United States Constitution,
which is part of the Bill of Rights, codifies the right to a jury
trial in certain civil cases. Unlike most of the Bill of Rights,
the Supreme Court has not incorporated the amendment's requirements to the states under the Fourteenth Amendment.

-Now I think the legal key here is that the amendment states that a person is entitled to a jury trial in civil cases (this assumes the case is "brought"), I believe in the case of the Castle Doctrine, the "case" cannot be brought through immunization, therefore there is no trial and no jury.

Its hair splitting but apparently it holds...As far as not having a good case come along? I recently read an article (and had a conversation with the author) who had reported that there have been almost 100 Castle Doctine aqcuitals in Florida since the law went on the books. Id say if it hasnt happened already, it probably holds water...
I'm 100% sure that my earlier statement is the opinion of many attorneys. Wether their opinion is correct is another matter. There are a couple of "go-to" attorneys in the west Tennessee area if you are a good-guy which needs a defense regarding the lawful use of a firearm. Both are very pro-carry. One occasionally speaks at firearm organizational meetings in the area regarding legal aspects of firearms. Both hold that civil suit immunity under castle laws will not stand if challenged, at least in Tennessee; keeping in mind that the actual language of castle laws vary from state to state.

As far as a good case comes along, the case will need to be where where the person would not meet the "guilty" standard for a criminal act, but would meet the standard for a civil suit. Think of something like the (first two) OJ Simpson cases, were he was acquitted in the criminal trial but was guilty in the civil suit.
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Old 05-22-2011, 18:10   #24
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This comes up every so often now that we should have stickies on top of stickies

I'm not aware of one state that has a law on gun modifications and that includes Florida. If gun mods where illegal than night lights, size of caliber, magazine capacity, glow in the dark sights, CW gun training, tactical pants and every thing in between, could be questioned.

Please name me one case, where a gun trigger mod, turned a legal self-defense from legal to illegal?
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Old 05-23-2011, 09:48   #25
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Please name me one case, where a gun trigger mod, turned a legal self-defense from legal to illegal?
Stawman Alert (again)! As has been pointed out numerous times by folks who have actually done it, a modification is is not going to be the independent cause of a conviction, nor will it impact the actual law of self-defense. However, it can be one variable among many, and it is a variable where the cost almost always outweighs the benefit.
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I'm not aware of one state that has a law on gun modifications and that includes Florida. If gun mods where illegal than night lights, size of caliber, magazine capacity, glow in the dark sights, CW gun training, tactical pants and every thing in between, could be questioned.
Actually you sort of prove the point, as some of those items and others like them have been an issue at various criminal and civil trials over the years and have been questioned. Fortunately most of them are easy to defend as normal and accepted modifications. The real problem is those modifications that are not within the normal and accepted realm, or those that are specifically recommended against by those in the field.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 05-23-2011 at 09:52..
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:36   #26
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3 words....
I Don't care

Do you worry about putting different tires on your car? Using different oil? Tearing the label off your pillows?

BTW, for FL folks, if the shoot is deemed good by the police, you can not be brought up on civil charges.

Last edited by fuzzy03cls; 05-23-2011 at 10:39..
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Old 05-23-2011, 10:55   #27
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Why does a different trigger for a pistol start a firestorm on the internet, yet a different triggers for rifle & shotguns don't even raise a eyebrow???

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Old 05-23-2011, 11:29   #28
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Originally Posted by Glockdude1 View Post
Why does a different trigger for a pistol start a firestorm on the internet, yet a different triggers for rifle & shotguns don't even raise a eyebrow???

Two reasons, IMO: Because the question is usually phrased in the "I'm thinking about modifying the trigger on my pistol" format, and defensive shootings with rifles and shotguns with modified triggers are few and far between.
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:36   #29
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Two reasons, IMO: Because the question is usually phrased in the "I'm thinking about modifying the trigger on my pistol" format, and defensive shootings with rifles and shotguns with modified triggers are few and far between.
defensive shootings with rifles and shotguns with modified triggers are few and far between, except by people in (on) their own home (property).
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:38   #30
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Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls View Post
3 words....
I Don't care

Do you worry about putting different tires on your car? Using different oil? Tearing the label off your pillows?

BTW, for FL folks, if the shoot is deemed good by the police, you can not be brought up on civil charges.
If you put tires on your car that the automotive experts say should not be put on that car, and there is a problem then yes, that can come up in court and you should worry about it. As for changing oil or tearing off labels those are somewhat irrelevant to this discussion.
Police do not deem shootings good or bad. That is a function of the DA. And even then you can still be out a lot. The question, however, is far more about shootings that are not good, or that are questionable, or where the evidence is not clear. Lots of folks sitting in jail because they thought they were acting within the law, and far more that have lost money, jobs, friends, family, etc. Why make it any easier for that to happen for no real need? That is the essence of the issue.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 05-23-2011 at 11:44..
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Old 05-23-2011, 11:43   #31
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Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
defensive shootings with rifles and shotguns with modified triggers are few and far between, except by people in (on) their own home (property).
OK, I'm open to new information. How many defensive shootings with rifles and shotgun with modified triggers have happened in the last 10 years or so by people in their home or on their own property?

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Old 05-23-2011, 12:17   #32
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Please name me one case, where a gun trigger mod, turned a legal self-defense from legal to illegal?
I have to admit that I don't know many of the details because I was just at home for lunch.

I saw part of a Court-TV trial one afternoon while I was at lunch. They had the president of a firearm company (some revolver) on the stand and they were questioning him about the "altered trigger". The revolver had an issued recall that was never completed and he was able to point out that his company was NOT the one to alter the trigger because they deemed it to be unsafe. He stated that if this revolver had been sent into them that they would have returned the altered trigger to factory spec before returning it. They determined that this revolver had never been back to the factory because the recall correction was not made to the revolver.

I wish I would have hit the record button the the DVR, but it was the last thing on my lunch break.

To say that it doesn't come up is completely false. If someone didn't think it would have some bearing to the case, then no one would bring it up at a trial.
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Old 05-23-2011, 12:21   #33
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Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
I'm 100% sure that my earlier statement is the opinion of many attorneys. Wether their opinion is correct is another matter. There are a couple of "go-to" attorneys in the west Tennessee area if you are a good-guy which needs a defense regarding the lawful use of a firearm. Both are very pro-carry. One occasionally speaks at firearm organizational meetings in the area regarding legal aspects of firearms.
Many attorneys.... couple attorneys.. that seems a bit oxymoronic And forgive me, the fact that one speaks at firearm organziations doesnt mean anything. I am always sort of impressed that people think just because someone "speaks" at a function of some kind ore another they are undenyable "experts" on an issue. Just saying...


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Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post

Both hold that civil suit immunity under castle laws will not stand if challenged, at least in Tennessee; .
Glad they know this... ask them what next week lottery numbers are and let me know.... ya know.. since they see the future and all and since they sit on the Tennessee Supreme Court and all..... and since castle doctrine laws have been on the books in dozens of states for quite a few years and all.

Im really not trying to give you a hard time.. I just know some attorney much like you are describing and often they portray themselves to be experts in areas and often are not.

Now I had the opportunity to speak with Jon Gutmacher (author of Florida Firearm, Law Use and Ownership, who has sold over 100,000 copies of the many versions of his book and which the book is a reference for Law Enforcement (supposedly) in Florida, and he mentioned on a related issue that he felt invocation of Castle Doctrine Laws were pretty tight. Im inclined to believe that if it really was an issue it would have been attempted already.. although I could be wrong.
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Old 05-23-2011, 14:59   #34
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Originally Posted by RYT 2BER View Post
Many attorneys.... couple attorneys.. that seems a bit oxymoronic And forgive me, the fact that one speaks at firearm organziations doesnt mean anything. I am always sort of impressed that people think just because someone "speaks" at a function of some kind ore another they are undenyable "experts" on an issue. Just saying...


Glad they know this... ask them what next week lottery numbers are and let me know.... ya know.. since they see the future and all and since they sit on the Tennessee Supreme Court and all..... and since castle doctrine laws have been on the books in dozens of states for quite a few years and all.

Im really not trying to give you a hard time.. I just know some attorney much like you are describing and often they portray themselves to be experts in areas and often are not.

Now I had the opportunity to speak with Jon Gutmacher (author of Florida Firearm, Law Use and Ownership, who has sold over 100,000 copies of the many versions of his book and which the book is a reference for Law Enforcement (supposedly) in Florida, and he mentioned on a related issue that he felt invocation of Castle Doctrine Laws were pretty tight. Im inclined to believe that if it really was an issue it would have been attempted already.. although I could be wrong.
If I were so self-satisfied so to use emoticons to add smugness, I'd at least get my spelling correct, but that is another matter.

I happen to have spoken to these two attorneys. They know many other attorneys. They ask each other their views, opinions, approaches, etc, ie. they "network". They say that there are differing opinions, but the general consensus among their peers is as stated before.

Neither goes around "tooting" their own horn about being an expert on a particular subject. The one who speaks to some of the local groups does so without compensation - more of community service than anything else. I know a couple of people who used their services and how their cases were handled. The local television news stations and at least one local newspaper interview him regarding proposed firearm legislation and the legal ramifications. It is for these reasons, and their general demeanor, that I value their opinions. I assume they are better versed on the subject than I am.

How many laws have been overturned which existed for years, until the "right" case came along? I don't have a count, but I'm sure it is quite a few - you probably know of a few yourself.

I have an opinion from a couple of lawyers who have discussed this with their peers, and you have an opinion from an author of a book on the general subject; I suppose neither is worth "two dead flies" until the the law is challenged in court.

Hopefully, neither of us will be on either side of an actual case.

Do you really want civil immunity as part of a castle law? My personal opinion is that it is a two-edged sword. We've all heard of civil lawsuits where the criminal (or their family) sued the victim. (Remember Bernie Goetz?) Sometimes the victim "won", but at significant expense. Sometimes the victim lost, usually at even greater expense. On the other hand, if you, or a family member were injured by criminal acts of another person; and there were not a conviction (juries sometimes don't appear to make the best verdict) would you still like to be able to pursue civil action?
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Old 05-23-2011, 15:07   #35
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My sgl21 has a 2lbs trigger pull
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Old 05-23-2011, 15:17   #36
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OK, I'm open to new information. How many defensive shootings with rifles and shotgun with modified triggers have happened in the last 10 years or so by people in their home or on their own property?
My intent was to comment that modified triggers on any firearm used for SD in the home/"own property" are probably less likely to come under the same scrutiny as a firearm used for SD in the general public.

In the general public there is an "intent to go armed" compared to "a weapon of availability" in the home/'own property'; in addition to "a presumption of threat" by an (uninvited) person entering the home.

And, there are not many folks carrying a long gun for SD in the general public compared to the home/'own property, where they are often used.

My intent was not to specifically address modified triggers on long guns used for SD in the home.
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Old 05-23-2011, 16:52   #37
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Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
If I were so self-satisfied so to use emoticons to add smugness, I'd at least get my spelling correct, but that is another matter.

I happen to have spoken to these two attorneys. They know many other attorneys. They ask each other their views, opinions, approaches, etc, ie. they "network". They say that there are differing opinions, but the general consensus among their peers is as stated before.

Neither goes around "tooting" their own horn about being an expert on a particular subject. The one who speaks to some of the local groups does so without compensation - more of community service than anything else. I know a couple of people who used their services and how their cases were handled. The local television news stations and at least one local newspaper interview him regarding proposed firearm legislation and the legal ramifications. It is for these reasons, and their general demeanor, that I value their opinions. I assume they are better versed on the subject than I am.

How many laws have been overturned which existed for years, until the "right" case came along? I don't have a count, but I'm sure it is quite a few - you probably know of a few yourself.

I have an opinion from a couple of lawyers who have discussed this with their peers, and you have an opinion from an author of a book on the general subject; I suppose neither is worth "two dead flies" until the the law is challenged in court.

Hopefully, neither of us will be on either side of an actual case.

Do you really want civil immunity as part of a castle law? My personal opinion is that it is a two-edged sword. We've all heard of civil lawsuits where the criminal (or their family) sued the victim. (Remember Bernie Goetz?) Sometimes the victim "won", but at significant expense. Sometimes the victim lost, usually at even greater expense. On the other hand, if you, or a family member were injured by criminal acts of another person; and there were not a conviction (juries sometimes don't appear to make the best verdict) would you still like to be able to pursue civil action?
I agree I hope neither of us are ever involved in such a case.

Personally though I would want civil immunity in castle law... I'm under the belief that castle law would only be relevant if the event met the definitions of rightful self defense... I'm sure none of us would ever want to be iin one of those ridiculous situations where we use a gun in self defense but are sued civilly and then become the victims of an idiotic legal process that rewards a criminal.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:46   #38
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Originally Posted by PEC-Memphis View Post
My intent was to comment that modified triggers on any firearm used for SD in the home/"own property" are probably less likely to come under the same scrutiny as a firearm used for SD in the general public.
OK, I thought you might have actually come across some numbers. I've not had any luck getting a good separation of that type of data, so I was hoping you might could send me in a helpful direction.
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Old 05-30-2011, 18:52   #39
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Originally Posted by fuzzy03cls View Post
3 words....
I Don't care

Do you worry about putting different tires on your car? Using different oil? Tearing the label off your pillows?

BTW, for FL folks, if the shoot is deemed good by the police, you can not be brought up on civil charges.
The analogy is more like this: If you put slicks on your car because you wanted more traction on dry smooth pavement, then in the rain you didn't stop in time to avoid hitting somebody. Were your tires slick enough to contribute to the problem, making it at least partially your fault, or was it entirely the other guy's fault, like you want us to believe?
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Old 06-04-2011, 21:00   #40
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Opinions On Chambered Round With Lighter Trigger?

I've done a couple of modifications to my Glock 21 since I bought it. It has a 3.5lbs trigger connector, 4lbs firing pin spring, lighter firing pin safety spring, heavier trigger pull spring and I polished the entire trigger system. So my question is is it safe to leave a round chambered? I'm aware of the 4 cardinal rules and follow them religiously and I'm well aware of how the "safe action system" works. However, would the firing pin safety spring, firing pin safety polish job and lighter firing pin spring become a concern for an AD? Not a ND...but a AD. I also have a lone wolf ultimate trigger stop however it is not installed as it is recommended for competition/plinking only.
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