[TexasPOff]

All mine have them...TXPO

[SouthernBoyVA]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

So, since we are not really sure if you talked to Fred Flintstone or Albert Einstein, or if he worked in sales or engineering.

From my link:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/guts...fired-pistols/


Yeah, Glock calls this DAO.... but, ....

Well let's look at this closer. Albert Einstein is dead so I don't imagine it was him. Fred Flintstone is a cartoon so that sorta rules him out of the equation. And the fellow with whom I spoke was quite knowledgeable and intimate with the operation of his product, so..... I'm going with a rather well-informed Glock employee whom as I vaguely recall introduced himself as a management type.

The problem with people's concept action types is the fact that in the past twenty+ years, hybrids have entered the picture and somewhat muddied the once well defined waters. DAO designs range from the Kel-Tec P11, which many folks believe to be the classic description of a DAO pistol, to the Kahr and Glock, which are striker fired with no second fire capability. This is a good reason to ignore hammers and strikers, which is really what is done with action descriptions, and think of what task(s) the trigger performs in the firing of the gun.

Another good example of confusion is the rather new use of the SA/DA action designation when referring to pistols such as the Beretta 92FS series or revolvers such as the Rugger GP100. In reality, there is no such thing as evidenced by historical action designs for these pistols/revolvers. By virtue of the fact that they are double action automatically implies they are also capable of single action operation. If you had purchased a 92FS Beretta 25 years ago, you would have noted it was described as a DA pistol. I'm not sure why the notation of SA/DA came about in recent years, but I suspect it might have something to do with the entrance into the gun world of a lot of gun-ignorant people (ignorant in this context means lack of knowledge).

In any case, it can get confusing. Look at the Smith and Wesson M&P pistol. It's a SAO.. which would be a SA in historical parlance. But it is a hybrid of a type. Still, the trigger only does one thing and that is to release the striker to fire a cartridge. The gun is held in full cock up to that point, unlike the Glock where the trigger completes the cocking of the striker prior to its release.

[Unkind]

I carry my G19 every day with a 3.5

[alabaster]

My 19c has one and new springs(Except the striker spring), and the 26 has a 3.5 & that's it. I carry 'em both regularly, often both at once when doing deliveries. I agree with the "Finger off trigger" idea, myself.

[sciolist]

I do like the "-" connector without a compensating spring, but prefer OE for carry.

[jarubla]

stock rocks. +1 for stock

-Jay

[MinervaDoe]

Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA

The problem with people's concept action types is the fact that in the past twenty+ years, hybrids have entered the picture and somewhat muddied the once well defined waters. DAO designs range from the Kel-Tec P11, which many folks believe to be the classic description of a DAO pistol, to the Kahr and Glock, which are striker fired with no second fire capability. This is a good reason to ignore hammers and strikers, which is really what is done with action descriptions, and think of what task(s) the trigger performs in the firing of the gun.

Another good example of confusion is the rather new use of the SA/DA action designation when referring to pistols such as the Beretta 92FS series or revolvers such as the Rugger GP100. In reality, there is no such thing as evidenced by historical action designs for these pistols/revolvers. By virtue of the fact that they are double action automatically implies they are also capable of single action operation. If you had purchased a 92FS Beretta 25 years ago, you would have noted it was described as a DA pistol. I'm not sure why the notation of SA/DA came about in recent years, but I suspect it might have something to do with the entrance into the gun world of a lot of gun-ignorant people (ignorant in this context means lack of knowledge).

In any case, it can get confusing. Look at the Smith and Wesson M&P pistol. It's a SAO.. which would be a SA in historical parlance. But it is a hybrid of a type. Still, the trigger only does one thing and that is to release the striker to fire a cartridge. The gun is held in full cock up to that point, unlike the Glock where the trigger completes the cocking of the striker prior to its release.

Thanks. I had to ask exactly because there is so much confusion on this. Now, I think we are on the same page with the striker fired thing, and since Glock describes it as DAO, it makes sense for me to use that term too. Now, my point is that since it is DAO, and some work is required to fire it, the term "hair trigger" does not seem to apply to Glock. The problem is that if you were being tried by a jury, could you make twelve people who could potentially be dumber than dirt understand this.

I mean seriously, when I was looking at a double action J frame at my local gunstore, the guy there told me it was striker fired, "Like your Glock."
But, with just a few seconds of Google searching, it can be shown to have an internal hammer.

Obviously, misinformation abounds on this.

[Michigun]

Most of your 1911's have 4~5lb pulls which have a VERY short travel... ALL of my (carry or otherwise) GLOCKs get 3.5 connectors, which takes them to maybe 4lbs of pull if not 5lbs+ with long pulls... so why not?

[SouthernBoyVA]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

Thanks. I had to ask exactly because there is so much confusion on this. Now, I think we are on the same page with the striker fired thing, and since Glock describes it as DAO, it makes sense for me to use that term too. Now, my point is that since it is DAO, and some work is required to fire it, the term "hair trigger" does not seem to apply to Glock. The problem is that if you were being tried by a jury, could you make twelve people who could potentially be dumber than dirt understand this.

I mean seriously, when I was looking at a double action J frame at my local gunstore, the guy there told me it was striker fired, "Like your Glock."
But, with just a few seconds of Google searching, it can be shown to have an internal hammer.

Obviously, misinformation abounds on this.

I should clarify something I wrote to which your post above responds. The Smith and Wesson M&P is classed by Smith and Wesson as a DAO action design. I don't see how this can be because the trigger only releases the striker which is held in full cock until release. But they do refer to it as a DAO design.

You're right. "Hair triggers" (which is a misnomer) and Glocks don't share the same page together. You can make a Glock have a very light trigger, but in the classic sense of a "hair trigger" designation, not quite. I would not want to take any of my Glocks under four measured pounds on their triggers. My primary 3G G23 has a 4 1/2 pound trigger and for my purposes, that really works well. The mods gave me what I was looking for and this gun is reliable and predictable.

[RussP]

An attempt was made to hijack this Carry Issues thread and turn it into a personal attack on a GT member, Mas Ayoob. It was started as a personal attack, not a discussion of his opinions. That's trolling, folks.

Sadly responding to that attack, other GT members were caught up in the trolling. That's not good.

This kind of behavior has no place in civil discussions about carry issues.

Now, if a member posts and makes a point you disagree with, address the point and justify your position. If a member is on record as having a position on the topic of the thread, state that position, address the point and justify your own position.

But if all you want to do is demean, insult and attack that person, no matter who that person is, instead of attacking the person's positions and opinion, you need to find another forum. If you want to be the playground bully, GT, and especially Carry Issues, is not for you.

If you want to discuss Mas Ayoob's well known position on carrying with a lighter trigger weight, discuss it. That is the topic of this thread. If you just don't like him and you want to recruit other members to your club, do it somewhere else. That's not this thread's topic.

[SouthernBoyVA]

Originally Posted by RussP

An attempt was made to hijack this Carry Issues thread and turn it into a personal attack on a GT member, Mas Ayoob. It was started as a personal attack, not a discussion of his opinions. That's trolling, folks.

Sadly responding to that attack, other GT members were caught up in the trolling. That's not good.

This kind of behavior has no place in civil discussions about carry issues.

Now, if a member posts and makes a point you disagree with, address the point and justify your position. If a member is on record as having a position on the topic of the thread, state that position, address the point and justify your own position.

But if all you want to do is demean, insult and attack that person, no matter who that person is, instead of attacking the person's positions and opinion, you need to find another forum. If you want to be the playground bully, GT, and especially Carry Issues, is not for you.

If you want to discuss Mas Ayoob's well known position on carrying with a lighter trigger weight, discuss it. That is the topic of this thread. If you just don't like him and you want to recruit other members to your club, do it somewhere else. That's not this thread's topic.

Russ, it seems that this has been happening more and more on these forums. For whatever reason, some of the folks appear to have an axe to grind and have no compunction about calling someone on things and getting personal. It's fine to have an opposing view and to voice it but damn, leaving the arena of civility in an attempt to stamp one's opinion on the foreheads of other members leaves a lot to be desired.

I am in no way patronizing you with this. I would like to see members police themselves, but I fear some just will not do this.

[Lior]

3.5 pounder here. With an empty chamber too.

[MinervaDoe]

Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA

I should clarify something I wrote to which your post above responds. The Smith and Wesson M&P is classed by Smith and Wesson as a DAO action design. I don't see how this can be because the trigger only releases the striker which is held in full cock until release. But they do refer to it as a DAO design.

So, it is striker fired too. I think from the perspective of a gun company, they have to keep these product definitions real simple for marketing to the general public and for legal reasons.

Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA

You're right. "Hair triggers" (which is a misnomer) and Glocks don't share the same page together. You can make a Glock have a very light trigger, but in the classic sense of a "hair trigger" designation, not quite. I would not want to take any of my Glocks under four measured pounds on their triggers. My primary 3G G23 has a 4 1/2 pound trigger and for my purposes, that really works well. The mods gave me what I was looking for and this gun is reliable and predictable.

[RussP]

Look folks, this thread is becoming more trouble than it's worth.

Stay on topic.

[SouthernBoyVA]

Originally Posted by MinervaDoe

So, it is striker fired too. I think from the perspective of a gun company, they have to keep these product definitions real simple for marketing to the general public and for legal reasons.

Good point.

I was watching a video set I have about SD handgun training last night (four DVD's in the set). In one of them, the two instructors are discussing different action types for the viewing audience.. not the class. One instructor mentions, "double actions, single actions, and constant actions". I have never heard of constant action handguns and couldn't begin to guess what he might have had in mind. I guess there is no guarantee that SD instructors are going to know in intimate detail things they really should know in order to both answer class questions and convey meaningful and correct information.

As for using a 3.5 connector in my Glocks, I have installed this in four of my carry Glocks, three of which have a Glock 3.5 connector, part #00135, in them. A few hours ago, I swapped out my trigger spring in my 3G G19 for a Wolf 6-pound spring I had laying around. I know that there has been much discussion and arguing regarding the potential legal and civil ramifications tied to modifying one's SD handgun. My take on this is pretty clear. You state and its laws and cases should be your guide. If this is a real possibility, contact an attorney who is experienced in cases of self defense. If you state does not offer an affirmative defense or have a Castle law in place, you are best served by leaving your firearm along and as it was designed by the manufacturer.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by SouthernBoyVA

I know that there has been much discussion and arguing regarding the potential legal and civil ramifications tied to modifying one's SD handgun. My take on this is pretty clear. You state and its laws and cases should be your guide. If this is a real possibility, contact an attorney who is experienced in cases of self defense. If you state does not offer an affirmative defense or have a Castle law in place, you are best served by leaving your firearm along and as it was designed by the manufacturer.

I would add that it goes beyond your state laws and cases, as courts often use precedent established outside of their immediate area. And as always it is far more than the win/lose of a criminal or civil case that one should be aware of. The potential cost of having to have this issue prepped by your attorney and an expert witness can be quite high even if it is just glossed over in court.

[SCmasterblaster]

If you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector, then that is a very good reason to use it. If a defence attorney or prosecutor asks you why you have a 3.5 lb connector, you can truthfully say that you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector.

"nuff said.

[SouthernBoyVA]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

I would add that it goes beyond your state laws and cases, as courts often use precedent established outside of their immediate area. And as always it is far more than the win/lose of a criminal or civil case that one should be aware of. The potential cost of having to have this issue prepped by your attorney and an expert witness can be quite high even if it is just glossed over in court.

I vacillated back and forth on this issue for a bit until I spoke with an attorney who holds seminars in the use of deadly force in my state. His council was informative and helped ease my concerns. I also posed a question to a county commonwealth's attorney about civil suits following SD shootings where there was an acquittal for in a trial for this. He told me that civil suits against someone who has been found to have committed an excusable homicide in Virginia are rare. This is good to know.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

If you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector, then that is a very good reason to use it. If a defence attorney or prosecutor asks you why you have a 3.5 lb connector, you can truthfully say that you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector.

"nuff said.

If you cannot shoot a standard Glock trigger pull well enough for SD, like hundreds of thousands of other people, then putting in a lighter trigger setup will not change that. And getting on the stand to discuss why you bought a gun that you could not shoot well, and that you are so incompetent with that you have to modify it in a manner prohibited by the factory and virtually all organizations that use the gun (LE, military) really won't sound that good to a jury, IMO. 'nuff said.

[Bowtie]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

If you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector, then that is a very good reason to use it. If a defence attorney or prosecutor asks you why you have a 3.5 lb connector, you can truthfully say that you shoot better with the 3.5 lb connector.

"nuff said.

Changing to a lighter connector as a preference is one thing, changing because you cant shoot as well with a standard connector means you need more training or a different gun in my honest opinion.

[SCmasterblaster]

Originally Posted by Bowtie

Changing to a lighter connector as a preference is one thing, changing because you cant shoot as well with a standard connector means you need more training or a different gun in my honest opinion.

Sorry, I was theororetically thinking of the 3.5-lb connector as a quick fix to someone's inabibillty to shoot well with the standard connector. I shoot well with both connectors, but I prefer the smoother trigger pull that the 3.5 offers.

[Bowtie]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

Sorry, I was theororetically thinking of the 3.5-lb connector as a quick fix to someone's inabibillty to shoot well with the standard connector. I shoot well with both connectors, but I prefer the smoother trigger pull that the 3.5 offers.

I understand. I shoot great with the standard connector but prefer a better trigger on my guns.

[RussP]

Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster

Sorry, I was theororetically thinking of the 3.5-lb connector as a quick fix to someone's inabibillty to shoot well with the standard connector. I shoot well with both connectors, but I prefer the smoother trigger pull that the 3.5 offers.

Originally Posted by Bowtie

I understand. I shoot great with the standard connector but prefer a better trigger on my guns.

I agree with these guys.

[atxbandit]

Originally Posted by David Armstrong

and that you are so incompetent with that you have to modify it in a manner prohibited by the factory and virtually all organizations that use the gun (LE, military) really won't sound that good to a jury, IMO. 'nuff said.

The factory does not prohibit. The 34 & 35 both come with the 3.5 connector. My carry piece is a G23 that was LE trade from the Missouri state highway patrol and had 3.5 connector in it when I bought it. I see no reason to change it. My G22 has a 5.5 and will stay that way. I do agree that the glock trigger takes getting used to though. It took lots of practice to get as good as I am with my Berretta or SW revolver.

[David Armstrong]

Originally Posted by atxbandit

The factory does not prohibit.

Yes, the factory does. That is why it is a controlled part and why you cannot buy one without some very specific conditions. The factory prohibits armorers from installing the part under other than those specific conditions under penalty of losing your certification.

The 34 & 35 both come with the 3.5 connector.

And are designated as target/competition use, not SD.

My carry piece is a G23 that was LE trade from the Missouri state highway patrol and had 3.5 connector in it when I bought it. I see no reason to change it.

Then don't. But I can assure you the gun did not come that way originally except on LE letterhead as part of a particular combo including the NY-1 trigger.

Folks, don't shoot the messenger. This is not what I say is the issue, this is what Glock, Inc. says. If you want to think you know more about building a defensive fighting firearm than Glock, or that it is smart to do something to your gun that virtually every LE organization in the U.S. says not to do because of safety issues, go right ahead. But then don't be surprised if it causes a problem for you in court.