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Old 07-11-2011, 08:48   #1
Vic Hays
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Fifth Freedom has some issues with Jesus

Fifth Freedom had a list of complaints against Jesus. I explained to him that they come from a slanted point of view. I wanted to give him a chance to see other points of view so I started this thread.
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Old 07-11-2011, 08:57   #2
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Issues with Jesus personally? He doesn't even know the man
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Old 07-11-2011, 08:57   #3
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Sounds good.. Lets start with a partial list:

sorry had to copy paste it from my other posting:

When one examines the Gospels and compares the stories with the commandments of the Torah (Hebrew Bible) this doctrine of a "sinless Jesus" is not supported. Instead we find that Jesus in fact violated a number of Biblical commandments:

1. Procreation
"Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). This obligates a person to marry and have children. Jesus remained single his entire life. He also encouraged others to disobey this commandment by recommending celibacy (Matthew 19:12)

2. Sabbath Observance
"The seventh day is a Sabbath to the L-rd your G-d. Do not do any work" (Exodus 20:9). Jesus defended his "hungry" disciples when they plucked grain on the Sabbath. This is agricultural labor and is unquestionably a violation of the Sabbath.

Christian apologists insist that Jesus was revealing the true meaning of the Sabbath when he said, "The Sabbath is not made for man; man is made for the Sabbath (Mark 2:27)." This is untenable. Deuteronomy 17:8-13 says that we are to follow the Jewish High Court in disputes of Jewish law and this requirement is recognized by Jesus himself (Matthew 23:2). With whom is he arguing in Mark? It is the same Jewish legal authorities who are Biblicaly authorized to interpret the Law!

If Jesus meant that they were starving and their lives were threatened, the Gospel account must be fictional.1 Talmudic (Pharisee) law agrees this would be a reason to violate the Sabbath (Talmud Yoma ch.8). The Rabbis would not have quarreled with Jesus if this were the case. If there was no danger to life, then plucking grain violates the Sabbath and the apostles were probably guilty of theft for eating from a field not theirs.

3. Not Honoring a Torah Sage
"Honor the face of an elder [zaken] " (Leviticus 19:32). Zaken does not simply mean an old person; for that is the subject of the first half of the verse ("You shall rise before an old person [seiva]"). This is a commandment to respect Torah scholars. Judges and religious leaders are typically called zaken in the Bible (Exodus 24:14, Leviticus 4:15, Numbers 11:25, Deuteronomy 22:16, 25:7). If Jesus did not violate this by calling them "vipers," no one ever did (Matthew 23:13-33).

4. Hand Washing-Failure to Obey the High Cour
t
(Deuteronomy 17:8-13): The obligation to follow the High Court includes rabbinic law. Jesus defended the failure of the apostles to follow a rabbinic requirement ? to wash their hands before eating. Jesus rejects rabbinic law as the "traditions of men (Mark 7:8)." He also defied the Rabbis regarding the Sabbath (see #2) note: the Rabbinical decree on hand washing post-dates Jesus' supposed life time ergo the hand washing argument in the Christian bible is fictional).

5. Insulting a Human Being

Jesus insulted a gentile woman by calling her a dog (Matthew 15:22-27). This is hardly befitting righteous and holy people. Whatever his pedagogical purpose, such a designation is inappropriate.

6. False Prophecy
Deuteronomy 18:20 prohibits false prophecy. The same passage defines false prophecy: "the word does not materialize or come to pass." As the New Testament asserts that Jesus is a prophet (Acts 3:22) one must regard as false prophecy the following statement: ".this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34).

This statement follows a description of signs of the End of Days. "This generation" of course died about 2,000 years ago and the prediction was never actualized. Here is how a prominent Christian commentary (NIV Study Bible p.1613) defends Jesus' "prophecy:"

a. Jesus may be referring to the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.

b. Jesus may be referring to a future generation alive at the beginning of "these things."

This is hardly convincing. Jesus explicitly describes his Second Coming: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn (24:30)." It will involve suffering "never to be equaled again (24:21)." This did not happen when the Temple was destroyed.

The idea that Jesus is referring to a future generation fails too. Throughout this speech Jesus refers to his audience as "you." When Jesus says, "when you see.. (v.15)" the NIV itself explains this as referring to events that happened long ago. Jesus tells his audience they will live to see "all these things" and "all" includes past events and the Second Coming. Obviously Jesus falsely predicted he would return in his audience's lifetime.

7. Not Honoring Parents
"Honor your father and mother" (Exodus 20:12). Jesus ignored his mother when she came to visit. "Someone told him, 'your mother and brother are standing outside, wanting to speak to you' He replied to him, 'who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers" (Matthew 12:47-49).

Jesus caused his parents a whole day of worrying. His parents returned from Jerusalem, assuming Jesus was with them. In fact, Jesus stayed in Jerusalem without informing his parents. They returned to Jerusalem to look for him.

"His mother said to him, 'Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you?' (Luke 2:48)."

8. Kosher Food (Leviticus 11)
Jesus permitted eating food that is not kosher. Although the beginning of Mark 7 addresses the issue of eating with unwashed hands, the end of that chapter goes much further. "It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles but rather what comes out of the mouth that defiles" (Mark 7:15) As if we may have missed the point, 7:19 reads,

"In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean" [KJV reads 'purged all meats']."

Biblical law teaches that what goes into the mouth indeed defiles (Lev.11:39). Ironically, Christianity maintains that the Original Sin was eating.

9. Failing to Rebuke

"You shall surely rebuke your fellow" (Leviticus 19:18). This requires correcting, not excusing, the infractions of others. We have mentioned that Jesus defended Sabbath violation (see #2) and the failure to wash hands before meals (#4), and permitted non-kosher food (#7). Ironically, Jesus said one who teaches others to break a single commandment "will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5:19)

10. Not to Add or Subtract From the Law (Deuteronomy 13:1, 4:2)
Jesus changed Biblical law with regard to divorce. The Bible permits divorce (Deuteronomy 24:1). Jesus does not dispute this point, however, he maintains this law is no longer valid. Thus he subtracted from the Law. "Why then, they asked, did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away? Jesus replied, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning [when G-d made them male and female (Genesis 1:27) and one flesh (2:24)]. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery (Matthew 19:7-9)."

Since Biblical law permits divorce and does not consider remarriage a form of adultery, Jesus is changing Biblical law. Jesus' reference to Genesis is of no avail, for Moses knew Genesis and still proclaimed divorce permissible. Also, Moses said that the Law cannot be changed. Jesus changed the laws of kosher food too (see #7).

11. Opposing a Biblical Commandment (Vows)
Jesus accuses the Pharisees of undermining the commandment to honor parents with the following statement: "But you say that if a man says to his father or mother 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Korban (that is, a gift devoted to G-d)' then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother" (Mark 7:11-12). What Jesus is opposing is not rabbinic, but Biblical law! 2. The Bible grants human beings the power to bind themselves through vows and oaths. A pledge to the Temple is a valid pledge, however foolish or insensitive. This can be compared to a person who sold his entire property for $1 and has no more money to support his ailing parents. This is a foolish sale, to be sure, but a valid sale that cannot be revoked from the lucky buyer.

12. Truth-telling
"Keep far from a false matter" (Exodus 23:7). This verse obligates us to tell the truth. Jesus made a false accusation when he said the Pharisees bear the blood guilt of Cain's murder of Abel-in fact the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth (Matthew 23:35). That is libel.
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Old 07-11-2011, 09:59   #4
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1. Procreation
"Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). This obligates a person to marry and have children. Jesus remained single his entire life. He also encouraged others to disobey this commandment by recommending celibacy (Matthew 19:12)
What if a person can't get someone to marry him? What is a couple of infertile? Also, what's the minimum number of children to have "multiplied"?

Not trying to be argumentative. Just curious.
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Old 07-11-2011, 10:24   #5
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Interesting.
1. How do you know Jesus wasn't married with children? Dan Brown seems to think he is (yes this is a joke)
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Old 07-11-2011, 13:22   #6
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Sounds good.. Lets start with a partial list:

When one examines the Gospels and compares the stories with the commandments of the Torah (Hebrew Bible) this doctrine of a "sinless Jesus" is not supported. Instead we find that Jesus in fact violated a number of Biblical commandments:

1. Procreation
"Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). This obligates a person to marry and have children. Jesus remained single his entire life. He also encouraged others to disobey this commandment by recommending celibacy (Matthew 19:12)
Lets start with 1 and work down.

1. "Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). This was God's Word to Adam. You must interpret this as a command for all men to multiply. Do you Jews encourage those who have genetic defects to multiply? I doubt it. Sounds like you had to work at finding something to fault here.

2. Sabbath Observance. You throw some other things into the mix with a claim of authority for the Jewish High Court. Jesus made His own claim of authority here:
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
God's authority is above the authority of the Jewish High Court.
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Old 07-11-2011, 13:36   #7
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3. Not Honoring a Torah Sage

Again, Jesus ha authority above these sages. He was just being honest.

4. Hand Washing-Failure to Obey the High Court

This was not a health issue, but a ritual to follow whether water was available or not. These type of rituals did not come from God, but men. Jesus was making the point that rituals do not make a man clean.

5. Insulting a Human Being
Jesus insulted a gentile woman by calling her a dog (Matthew 15:22-27).

The Jews of the time and even today consider Gentiles below their status. You think of this as an insult, but the word wasn't really dog was it? It means puppy. It actually was a term of endearment. Jesus came unto His own first. This story points up His mercy toward this Gentile woman of faith before the Jew's completely rejected Him and the Gospel went to the Gentiles.
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Old 07-11-2011, 13:51   #8
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[QUOTE=FifthFreedom;17614189]
6. False Prophecy
Deuteronomy 18:20 prohibits false prophecy. The same passage defines false prophecy: "the word does not materialize or come to pass." As the New Testament asserts that Jesus is a prophet (Acts 3:22) one must regard as false prophecy the following statement: ".this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34).

This statement follows a description of signs of the End of Days. "This generation" of course died about 2,000 years ago and the prediction was never actualized. Here is how a prominent Christian commentary (NIV Study Bible p.1613) defends Jesus' "prophecy:"

7. Not Honoring Parents
"Honor your father and mother" (Exodus 20:12). Jesus ignored his mother when she came to visit. "Someone told him, 'your mother and brother are standing outside, wanting to speak to you' He replied to him, 'who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' Pointing to his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers" (Matthew 12:47-49).

Jesus caused his parents a whole day of worrying. His parents returned from Jerusalem, assuming Jesus was with them. In fact, Jesus stayed in Jerusalem without informing his parents. They returned to Jerusalem to look for him.

"His mother said to him, 'Son, why have you treated us like this? Your father and I have been anxiously searching for you?' (Luke 2:48)." [QUOTE]



6. This passage certainly does seem ambiguous. Obviously it is the generation that sees all of these signs that will not pass away.

7. Jesus Father is God the Father. This duty is certainly above His duty to His earthly parents.
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Old 07-11-2011, 14:01   #9
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8. Kosher Food (Leviticus 11)
Jesus permitted eating food that is not kosher. Although the beginning of Mark 7 addresses the issue of eating with unwashed hands, the end of that chapter goes much further. "It is not what goes into the mouth that defiles but rather what comes out of the mouth that defiles" (Mark 7:15) As if we may have missed the point, 7:19 reads,

"In saying this, Jesus declared all foods clean" [KJV reads 'purged all meats']."

Biblical law teaches that what goes into the mouth indeed defiles (Lev.11:39). Ironically, Christianity maintains that the Original Sin was eating.
.
The idea that rituals cleans food or hearts is absolutely false. Jesus did not permit the eating of the unclean foods. Peter was never taught that. There are some Christians who believe that though and so the "Jesus declared all foods clean" ended up in the NIV Bible. Notice that it is in parenthesis because that is an added statement.

Peter who walked with Jesus for Jesus entire ministry said:

Acts 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
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Old 07-11-2011, 14:04   #10
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#1:

Did not David call Him master? Yes he did. If John 1:1 is true, and it is, He is the Word which helped create all living things. We are His brothers and sisters. He already has a family.

#2:

Back to David. Amazing how we keep coming back to David.
David ate bread from the altar, along with his men, yet didn't violate the Law. Figure that one out and answer your own question.

#3:

They were violating the Law themselves. Is the commandment to tell a brother of his sin a greater commandment? Yes it is.

#4:

The court was to follow Moese. Moses never said it was a sin to not wash your hands before you ate. Goes back to #3.

#5:

God called them unclean. Go figure. They were.

#6:

Stretching. You is obviously an inclusive you. This prophecy has two parts.

#7:

Again, quite a stretch. Who was the responsible party here? You walk out of Walmart and leave your kid behind, is it his fault?

#8:

This footnotes were added. Besides, this is in relation to eating bread with unwashed hands, which isn't a sin, not about eating unclean food, as the food being discussed was bread.

I'll try and get to the rest later.
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Old 07-11-2011, 14:05   #11
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9. Failing to Rebuke[/B]
"You shall surely rebuke your fellow" (Leviticus 19:18). This requires correcting, not excusing, the infractions of others. We have mentioned that Jesus defended Sabbath violation (see #2) and the failure to wash hands before meals (#4), and permitted non-kosher food (#7). Ironically, Jesus said one who teaches others to break a single commandment "will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 5:19)
You seem to want it both ways. First you complain that Jesus rebukes(see number 3) and now you complain that Jesus does not rebuke. Just more of baseless accusations.
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Old 07-11-2011, 14:10   #12
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11. Opposing a Biblical Commandment (Vows)
Jesus accuses the Pharisees of undermining the commandment to honor parents with the following statement: "But you say that if a man says to his father or mother 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Korban (that is, a gift devoted to G-d)' then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother" (Mark 7:11-12). What Jesus is opposing is not rabbinic, but Biblical law! 2. The Bible grants human beings the power to bind themselves through vows and oaths. A pledge to the Temple is a valid pledge, however foolish or insensitive. This can be compared to a person who sold his entire property for $1 and has no more money to support his ailing parents. This is a foolish sale, to be sure, but a valid sale that cannot be revoked from the lucky buyer.
What Jesus was referring to was a legal trick to circumvent the commandment to honor their parents by dedicating everything they owned to the temple. This way they could avoid having to take care of their parents as was required by the commandment.

Do you really think that avoiding taking care of parents by a vow is pleasing to God?
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Old 07-11-2011, 14:16   #13
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12. Truth-telling
"Keep far from a false matter" (Exodus 23:7). This verse obligates us to tell the truth. Jesus made a false accusation when he said the Pharisees bear the blood guilt of Cain's murder of Abel-in fact the guilt of all righteous blood shed on earth (Matthew 23:35). That is libel.
Only an assertion on your part. Jesus was speaking the Truth.
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Old 07-11-2011, 16:33   #14
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Sounds good.. Lets start with a partial list:
6. False Prophecy
Deuteronomy 18:20 prohibits false prophecy. The same passage defines false prophecy: "the word does not materialize or come to pass." As the New Testament asserts that Jesus is a prophet (Acts 3:22) one must regard as false prophecy the following statement: ".this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34).

This statement follows a description of signs of the End of Days. "This generation" of course died about 2,000 years ago and the prediction was never actualized. Here is how a prominent Christian commentary (NIV Study Bible p.1613) defends Jesus' "prophecy:"

a. Jesus may be referring to the destruction of the Temple in 70 CE.

b. Jesus may be referring to a future generation alive at the beginning of "these things."

This is hardly convincing. Jesus explicitly describes his Second Coming: "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn (24:30)." It will involve suffering "never to be equaled again (24:21)." This did not happen when the Temple was destroyed.
Which part do you claim "never happened?"

If the later, are you aware of the great torment that happened during the seige?

If the former, then I'd like to ask your interpretation of Isaiah 13, especially:

Isa 13:6 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come!
7 Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every man's heart will melt,
8 and they will be dismayed. Pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in travail. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the earth a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it.
10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising and the moon will not shed its light.
11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pride of the arrogant, and lay low the haughtiness of the ruthless.
12 I will make men more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the LORD of hosts in the day of his fierce anger.
14 And like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with none to gather them, every man will turn to his own people, and every man will flee to his own land.
15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword.
16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished.
17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold.
18 Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children.

Isaiah here is talking (primarily, in the same manner as Christ was perhaps speaking polyvalently) about the destruction of Babylon, was he not? Do you consider Isaiah a false prophet, or do you think that he just might be using "apocalyptic" imagery?
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:31   #15
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Lets start with 1 and work down.

1. "Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). This was God's Word to Adam. You must interpret this as a command for all men to multiply. Do you Jews encourage those who have genetic defects to multiply? I doubt it. Sounds like you had to work at finding something to fault here.

2. Sabbath Observance. You throw some other things into the mix with a claim of authority for the Jewish High Court. Jesus made His own claim of authority here:
Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
God's authority is above the authority of the Jewish High Court.

1:

G-d's word to Adam is correct therefore it is a commandment to ALL men, not just Jews.

2:

You said: You throw some other things into the mix with a claim of authority for the Jewish High Court


Try reading what I wrote. What I am saying is that the court would have been in total agreement with him, had it been the case that life was in danger since Shabbos observance is suspended in the case of life being in danger. However this was not the case here. He violated Shabbos and allowed others to do so as well.
jsus may have made his own personal claim of authority, but since he isn't G-d, he has no right to do so. Keep in mind he claimed. " He who breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called the least in heaven."
See also his remark:
"heaven and Earth shall pass away before one tittle of the Law shall pass away" ( I am paraphrasing here) Heaven and Earth are still here in case you haven't noticed..
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:43   #16
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3. Not Honoring a Torah Sage

Again, Jesus ha authority above these sages. He was just being honest.

4. Hand Washing-Failure to Obey the High Court

This was not a health issue, but a ritual to follow whether water was available or not. These type of rituals did not come from God, but men. Jesus was making the point that rituals do not make a man clean.

5. Insulting a Human Being
Jesus insulted a gentile woman by calling her a dog (Matthew 15:22-27).

The Jews of the time and even today consider Gentiles below their status. You think of this as an insult, but the word wasn't really dog was it? It means puppy. It actually was a term of endearment. Jesus came unto His own first. This story points up His mercy toward this Gentile woman of faith before the Jew's completely rejected Him and the Gospel went to the Gentiles.


#5 first... Vic, if anyone other than Jesus called you a dog, a #!$#@ or even a puppy-dog would you take it as a COMPLIMENT?

Refer, also to Matthew 15:25 -- it too insults the woman.

You are simply in a total state of denial, and now arguing the ridiculous, in a vain attempt to disprove what is clearly before your eyes.

You keep saying this jsus "has the authority" I notice how you said he basically didn't have to honot the sages yet you always disregard the actual commandment that I listed that he clearly broke "Honor the face of an elder [zaken] " (Leviticus 19:32). Zaken does not simply mean an old person; for that is the subject of the first half of the verse ("You shall rise before an old person [seiva]"). This is a commandment to respect Torah scholars. Judges and religious leaders are typically called zaken in the Bible (Exodus 24:14, Leviticus 4:15, Numbers 11:25, Deuteronomy 22:16, 25:7). If Jesus did not violate this by calling them "vipers," no one ever did (Matthew 23:13-33).

It seems the way this is going to go ios every time we come to someplace that he clearly sinned, you are going to say he somehow "had the authority" to sin

Same way with your argument against the high court. WE are COMMANDED by G-d to follow them (Deuteronomy 17:8-13): The obligation to follow the High Court includes rabbinic law. Jesus defended the failure of the apostles to follow a rabbinic requirement ? to wash their hands before eating. Jesus rejects rabbinic law as the "traditions of men (Mark 7:8)." He also defied the Rabbis regarding the Sabbath (see #2) note: the Rabbinical decree on hand washing post-dates Jesus' supposed life time ergo the hand washing argument in the Christian bible is fictional).
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:46   #17
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[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17615335]
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Originally Posted by FifthFreedom View Post
6. False Prophecy
Deuteronomy 18:20 prohibits false prophecy. The same passage defines false prophecy: "the word does not materialize or come to pass." As the New Testament asserts that Jesus is a prophet (Acts 3:22) one must regard as false prophecy the following statement: ".this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place." (Matthew 24:34).

This statement follows a description of signs of the End of Days. "This generation" of course died about 2,000 years ago and the prediction was never actualized. Here is how a prominent Christian commentary (NIV Study Bible p.1613) defends Jesus' "prophecy:"

Yes I am fully aware of how Xtian apologist try to explain away his prophecy that never happened.
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:51   #18
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[QUOTE=Vic Hays;17615335]
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7. Jesus Father is God the Father. This duty is certainly above His duty to His earthly parents.
Our duty is to obey G-d. and one of those is to honor our parent both in life and death..in the same vein, one man told jsus he would follow him but wanted to bury his father first. Jsus in his arrogance said "let the dead bury their dead"
How rude! First this is two separate mitzvot one is to prepare and give the dead a proper burial the second is honoring parents and in burying his father, the main would have been doing what was proper. jsus of course like the serpant before him didn't actually TELL him NOT to, rather put extreme pressure on him to choose between following commandments and following him.
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Old 07-12-2011, 07:53   #19
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There are some Christians who believe that though and so the "Jesus declared all foods clean" ended up in the NIV Bible. Notice that it is in parenthesis because that is an added statement.
Oh so now you are saying that the "NIV bible" that I should you referred me to to look for it's apologies for unfulfilled prophecy is NOT ACCURATE??
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Old 07-12-2011, 08:11   #20
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Originally Posted by Brasso View Post
#1:

Did not David call Him master? Yes he did. If John 1:1 is true, and it is, He is the Word which helped create all living things. We are His brothers and sisters. He already has a family.

#2:

Back to David. Amazing how we keep coming back to David.
David ate bread from the altar, along with his men, yet didn't violate the Law. Figure that one out and answer your own question.

#3:

They were violating the Law themselves. Is the commandment to tell a brother of his sin a greater commandment? Yes it is.

#4:

The court was to follow Moese. Moses never said it was a sin to not wash your hands before you ate. Goes back to #3.

#5:

God called them unclean. Go figure. They were.

#6:

Stretching. You is obviously an inclusive you. This prophecy has two parts.

#7:

Again, quite a stretch. Who was the responsible party here? You walk out of Walmart and leave your kid behind, is it his fault?

#8:

This footnotes were added. Besides, this is in relation to eating bread with unwashed hands, which isn't a sin, not about eating unclean food, as the food being discussed was bread.

I'll try and get to the rest later.

Did not David call Him master? Yes he did. If John 1:1 is true, and it is, He is the Word which helped create all living things. We are His brothers and sisters. He already has a family.


Did David call who Master?


Back to David. Amazing how we keep coming back to David.
David ate bread from the altar, along with his men, yet didn't violate the Law. Figure that one out and answer your own question.


Yes it is amazing..it is also amazing how you never quote scripture in context. David didn't sin. he was told that he could only have showbread if they were ritually pure and were not defiled and David answered that they had kept from women. Therefore he was not sinning. Also they were exhausted to the point of near death so even had they been, the preservation of life would supercede eating the bread in a contaminated state.

They were violating the Law themselves. Is the commandment to tell a brother of his sin a greater commandment? Yes it is.


Oh? what law were they violating?

God called them unclean. Go figure. They were.


Jsus insulted a woman for no reason which is clearly a violation of the Torah.
To love the stranger (Devarim / Deuteronomy 10:19)

Not to wrong the stranger in speech (Shemot Exodus 22:20)

Now stop beating a dead horse. Jesus sinned. Get over it! This woman is not the only person Jesus insulted in the Christian bible. There are quite a few examples

6:Stretching. You is obviously an inclusive you. This prophecy has two parts.

I gotta admit, ya lost me there perhaps you could be clearer on your meaning?

Again, quite a stretch. Who was the responsible party here? You walk out of Walmart and leave your kid behind, is it his fault?

Brasso, do you have any children? I do, if one of them were to take off for a whole day, not tell you where they were worry you all day and when you finally found them they responded to you in such a disrespectful way, would you feel disrespected? would you punish them?

This footnotes were added. Besides, this is in relation to eating bread with unwashed hands, which isn't a sin, not about eating unclean food, as the food being discussed was bread.

see my response in my last post to vic.
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