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Old 07-20-2011, 09:14   #1
Sam Spade
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Street Fights

http://www.break.com/index/crazy-str...vegas-2085114#


This is what a street fight looks like. Not a "mugging", not a "beat down", but a street fight. So...

Should you get involved? If so, how? Can you tell the aggressors from the victims? What if you came in to the middle of things? What if you came in late and saw one of the "ladies" taking a few lumps?

If you were set upon in such a fashion, could you execute your 1.5s draw from concealment? Could you retain control of the weapon after you did? Do you have empty-hand skills to fill the gap? If your empty-hand skills center on a grappling art, will they serve in the 5:1 pile?

None of these players is very good at fighting, BTW. How might things change (for you) if they were?

"Answers are the easy part, questions raise the doubt." What other questions should we be asking ourselves?
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:26   #2
David Armstrong
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A pretty good example of you don't always know who all the players are and who is waiting to attack you. So I'd suggest the question of "Is this the only assailant or does he have friends I haven't ID'd?"

Last edited by David Armstrong; 07-20-2011 at 09:31..
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:30   #3
John Rambo
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Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:32   #4
rohanreginald
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I don't want to get mixed up in some gang rivalry. However, I have stepped in to help a guy and his wife who were with two kids while being assaulted.

That was messed up I couldn't tell who was on whose side. No way would I get involved in that.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:38   #5
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I try my best to not put myself in situations where something like that could be a possible outcome.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:47   #6
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I thank you have to help the guy in red shorts. He was running a way got tripped up. Then he was getting beat on by 4 people. If the other guy did not get involved they could of hurt the red shorts guy. It turned out good though guy in white camo shorts got knocked out with that last kick. Maybe he learned his lesson.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:47   #7
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In this case, I say it's better to stay out of it. If you have a camera or video device, record the event, call the authorities and present them the evidence. Chances are that the kids in the above video are just thugs being crazy, but what if it were not?

The proof on your video could help convict the actual assailant. But when it comes to drawing or getting involved, I vote stay out of it. No way to know what is really going on.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:53   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vip18971 View Post
Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.
Especially if your carrying. Any of them could have gotten your gun & used it or you may have felt the need to draw even though a weapon was not produced & you may be in trouble.

If anything call 911.
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:57   #9
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Red shorts guy was definitely retreating at the beginning of the video...but from what?

Two guys/two girls on one wasn't cool, but the video doesn't show why he was running in the first place.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:02   #10
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Wow that was a crazy "fight". I agree with staying out of it. Especially if you don't know the people or why they're even fighting. I've seen people catch the wrong end, really trying to be good samaritans and break up a fight. But little did they know...

Red shorts could have been anybody, could have had it coming. Or not. Who knows? Not me. I would have just sidelined, recorded the video, and then showed it to my friends!
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:03   #11
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That was the weakest fight I've ever seen.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:25   #12
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Call 911. be a good witness
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Last edited by James Dean; 07-20-2011 at 10:25..
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:40   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Dean View Post
Call 911. be a good witness
This times a million.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:47   #14
Mister_Beefy
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as the situation unfolded in the video, no way I would get involved.

however if once the guy was unconscious on the pavement if someone started stomping on his head or lifted a heavy object to strike him, I would intervene.

fine by me if some punks want to tussle, but I won't sit back and watch a murder.
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Old 07-20-2011, 10:54   #15
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People are disgusting, what I would do? Call the police, and probably record if I thought about it for evidence. I wouldn't be enjoying it as much as the cameraman that's for sure.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:39   #16
Sam Spade
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Lots of comments on staying out of it, and that's fine.

Now, what if the attack was brought against you? Where are you justified in drawing/shooting? Where are you actually capable of drawing? Do you have skills to cover the physical end of things? Could you protect your weapon--either in or out of the holster--if you're down on the pavement like that? Does your carry method help or hinder you when trying to escape or when in that effed-up tangle?
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:45   #17
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  • Now, what if the attack was brought against you? I'd draw in that situation, 5 on 1 is deadly force in my opinion, and I know I could articulate that in court.
  • Where are you justified in drawing/shooting? Drawing YES, shooting depends on their actions after my weapon is drawn.
  • Where are you actually capable of drawing?There are many barriers there that I hope I would have the foresight to get behind before the fight came to me, and if I didn't have the foresight I am drawing regardless.
  • Do you have skills to cover the physical end of things? I am not trained in any hand to hand fighting, but I used to fight Fed LEO's in my past job, and many times it took multiple guys to get me to give up so I am confident.
  • Could you protect your weapon--either in or out of the holster--if you're down on the pavement like that? Yes as a part of my old job I picked up many weapon retention techniques.
  • Does your carry method help or hinder you when trying to escape or when in that effed-up tangle? Me carrying concealed would probably hinder more in that situation than OC, but I can still draw fast enough before they close the reactionary gap (hopefully).
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:15   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vip18971 View Post
Theres a simple answer to all of your questions:

Don't get involved. Turn around and walk away.
+1000

For this particular situation based on seeing what little we saw, coming into the middle of it, don't know anyone involved. Not all situations but this one, yes: don't get involved.

My personal answer is I would have no problem with turning my head and walking away in the other direction without even looking back or even calling the police. I don't get involved in street gang fighting.

Again, not my answer for everything in life, but for these two minutes, this is all you are going to get from kensteele.

Edit: It was entertaining. The red shorts delivered the knockout kick to the camo white shorts at the very end; it was total retaliation since in the very beginning of the video, the red shorts he is running away (for unknown reasons) and he is chased and first grabbed and detained by the camo white shorts. Camo white shorts took a pretty good blow earlier as well. Camo white shorts got the worst of it, red shorts got off relatively unscathed despite the 5-on-1.

Last edited by kensteele; 07-20-2011 at 12:30..
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Old 07-20-2011, 12:51   #19
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If I witness the guy running away, getting jumped by multiple guys and then getting beat while laying on the ground I will probably do something. That **** really ****ing pisses me off. Draw pistol in strong side hand and Fox OC in off side hand and give verbal commands. Hope they scatter or get distracted by me enough the guy on the ground isn't going to get maimed/killed. Use the OC on anybody that turns towards me. If they ignore me use the OC on the pile (stream pattern, hope it has good range!). Use the firearm to defend myself if necessary. Hesitate to use firearm in defense of the guy on the ground, but if doing so will save his life (say he goes unconcious, is getting kicked in the head, etc) I just might. Try to put my back to a wall and keep my head on a swivel. Maybe ask the bystanders WTF is going on initially.

Or maybe not intervene, especially if I am not by myself.

If for some reason multiple guys are chasing me down I very well may draw. As we know and as the video shows it only takes a second or two to get knocked down and piled on and then you are not only in a very dangerous situation where drawing and firing will be very difficult/maybe not possible but you also stand the chance of losing control of your firearm. It is far too easy to grab a pistol out of a typical open top zero retention (other than a little friction) IWB concealment holster. Or get your head kicked in.


Edit: And I would prefer to be carrying openly. I won't pretend as though, should somebody get close enough to be hands on, and especially should I wind up on the ground against multiple attackers, my IWB holstered firearm will remain a secret. Thus I would MUCH rather have the better retention that goes with an OWB holster as well as the quicker draw (and easier one handed draw)
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Last edited by Warp; 07-20-2011 at 13:03..
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Old 07-20-2011, 14:47   #20
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Given this sceanrio just exploding and not knowing if Red Shorts is really the victim, I'm just a witness or moving toward safety.

If it were an attack on me or my wife, then I'm probably drawing if I can.

In the Tae Kwon Do classes , generally 60 seconds of intense sparring, fighting, kicking leaves me completely gassed. I'm in decent shape for 45.

I've seen healthy, physically fit teenagers gassed in two minutes.

Without the other guy ambushing the mob, red shorts was in big trouble.

Add to it that I'm diabetic, with a touch of arthritis in my feet and ankle. Out running the mob is unlikely. Too damn old to fight.

Being bum rushed and given the crowded street, drawing a gun is going to be problematic.

I know enough TKD to possibly survive one on one, but not even a grand master could take on five without some serious issues.

If I carried OC then maybe a wide blast to cover my track, slashing and jammming the Kubaton stick/keys, eye gouging, throat, neck, and other tender spots are my target.

Honestly, I'm too old and not in the mood, and likely would try to maim or kill the closest one involved.
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