Serious question for Christians and Jews.

frank4570 · 07-20-2011, 22:39

If we go on the assumption that gods plan, is what it is, and it is unknowable, what is the point of prayer?
I understand prayers of thanks. But prayers of any other sort seem, a waste of time, or something.
Your mom is sick, you pray for her to get better, that makes sense. But god already has his plan. And his plan may be for your mom to get worse, or die, or whatever. So praying for her to get better may be praying for something contrary to gods will.

It seems the only prayers which would make sense would be 1) Thanks and 2) gods will be done. That's it.
Am I missing something?

FifthFreedom · 07-21-2011, 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

If we go on the assumption that gods plan, is what it is, and it is unknowable, what is the point of prayer?
I understand prayers of thanks. But prayers of any other sort seem, a waste of time, or something.
Your mom is sick, you pray for her to get better, that makes sense. But god already has his plan. And his plan may be for your mom to get worse, or die, or whatever. So praying for her to get better may be praying for something contrary to gods will.

It seems the only prayers which would make sense would be 1) Thanks and 2) gods will be done. That's it.
Am I missing something?

Because we know G-d answers prayer as I pointed out in another thread and gave a few examples of prayers that were answered.

Brasso · 07-21-2011, 07:30

He answers prayers of those who ask, within His will, and believe. Obviously praying for a sick person to recover is in His will. The problem is that most people don't believe. I would imagine that most answered prayers are in spite of the person not believing and His mercy, than prayers of faith.

He already said that anything you ask, believing, you will recieve.

frank4570 · 07-21-2011, 07:41

So then, god changes his plan sometimes? Or is it that answering the prayer IS the plan?

FifthFreedom · 07-21-2011, 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

So then, god changes his plan sometimes? Or is it that answering the prayer IS the plan?

Frank,
do you "Plan" for your children's future? Of course, or at least let's hope so. Do those plans sometime's change due to certain circumstances. For example, you plan to send your child to a certain college but they decide their heart is set on another and ask for your support. Do you not sometimes alter your original plans due to your love of your child and support them as long as they are not asking your blessing to do something evil or immoral?

frank4570 · 07-21-2011, 07:53

Dude, I'm not god.

I am assuming that as you see it, god has it all worked out already. As an example, he already knows when my mom will die. So when that time comes, praying for her to get better is praying for something other than gods plan.
See what I'm saying?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FifthFreedom

Frank,
do you "Plan" for your children's future? Of course, or at least let's hope so. Do those plans sometime's change due to certain circumstances. For example, you plan to send your child to a certain college but they decide their heart is set on another and ask for your support. Do you not sometimes alter your original plans due to your love of your child and support them as long as they are not asking your blessing to do something evil or immoral?

FifthFreedom · 07-21-2011, 08:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

Dude, I'm not god.

I am assuming that as you see it, god has it all worked out already. As an example, he already knows when my mom will die. So when that time comes, praying for her to get better is praying for something other than gods plan.
See what I'm saying?

Dude,
I didn;t say you were. Let me point to the Tanach...

IIKings 20:1

1. In those days Hezekiah became critically ill, when Isaiah the son of Amoz the prophet came to him, and said to him, "So has the Lord said, 'Give orders to your household, for you are going to die and you shall not live.' "
2. And he turned his face toward the wall and prayed to the Lord, saying,
3. "Please, O Lord, remember now, how I walked before You truly and wholeheartedly, and I did what is good in Your eyes." And Hezekiah wept profusely.
4. And it was when Isaiah had not gone out to the inner court, and the word of the Lord came to him, saying,
5. "Return and say to Hezekiah the ruler of My people, 'So has the Lord God of your father David said, "I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold I shall heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord.

Get it? G-d answers prayers.

frank4570 · 07-21-2011, 08:13

Ok, your scripture says god DOES answer prayers, I get that. But it isn't what I am asking.
Does god CHANGE his plan?

Quote:

Originally Posted by FifthFreedom

Dude,
I didn;t say you were. Let me point to the Tanach...

IIKings 20:1

1. In those days Hezekiah became critically ill, when Isaiah the son of Amoz the prophet came to him, and said to him, "So has the Lord said, 'Give orders to your household, for you are going to die and you shall not live.' "
2. And he turned his face toward the wall and prayed to the Lord, saying,
3. "Please, O Lord, remember now, how I walked before You truly and wholeheartedly, and I did what is good in Your eyes." And Hezekiah wept profusely.
4. And it was when Isaiah had not gone out to the inner court, and the word of the Lord came to him, saying,
5. "Return and say to Hezekiah the ruler of My people, 'So has the Lord God of your father David said, "I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold I shall heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord.

Get it? G-d answers prayers.

FifthFreedom · 07-21-2011, 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

Ok, your scripture says god DOES answer prayers, I get that. But it isn't what I am asking.
Does god CHANGE his plan?

G-d planned to exterminate those he took out of Egypt due to their sin of the Golden Calf. Moshe prayed they be forgiven, the plan was changed,.

Hezekiah was a righteous person, but G-d decreed he would die ( there was a reason) He prayed, G-d heard his prayer and added to his life. ( change of plans)

Triple7 · 07-21-2011, 08:19

This comes with a Christian debate written all over it. Pre-destination or Determinism.
For the pre-destine camp there is a line that has been set out and no matter what, the line will be followed. So prayers of intercession aren't really valid. (Though most pre-destinationist won't say that)
Free Willers will say the opposite that intercessory prayers are valid and they can petition God. But then God can't know the future, (Or there is no future to know.) But most of them don't like that option.

I won't say were I fall.......

frank4570 · 07-21-2011, 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by FifthFreedom

G-d planned to exterminate those he took out of Egypt due to their sin of the Golden Calf. Moshe prayed they be forgiven, the plan was changed,.

Is that because there were *unforseen* complications? Or did he just change his mind or what?

He didn't know this is how this whole thing was going to go down? Was god surprised by this guys prayers?

creaky · 07-21-2011, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by FifthFreedom

G-d planned to exterminate those he took out of Egypt due to their sin of the Golden Calf. Moshe prayed they be forgiven, the plan was changed,.

Hezekiah was a righteous person, but G-d decreed he would die ( there was a reason) He prayed, G-d heard his prayer and added to his life. ( change of plans)

A series of good answers, FF, but I'm getting the feeling that you're answering a contrarian who has no other purpose than to be a contrarian.

frank4570 · 07-21-2011, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Triple7

This comes with a Christian debate written all over it. Pre-destination or Determinism.
For the pre-destine camp there is a line that has been set out and no matter what, the line will be followed. So prayers of intercession aren't really valid. (Though most pre-destinationist won't say that)
Free Willers will say the opposite that intercessory prayers are valid and they can petition God. But then God can't know the future, (Or there is no future to know.) But most of them don't like that option.

I won't say were I fall.......

You know what? You're right. I've looked at this before. The only thing that makes sense to me is pre-destination, when it comes to this group of religions. But that is not how the denominations see it. I should have seen this coming.

FifthFreedom · 07-21-2011, 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

Is that because there were *unforseen* complications? Or did he just change his mind or what?

He didn't know this is how this whole thing was going to go down? Was god surprised by this guys prayers?

How in the world would I know if G-d was "surprised??"

Brasso · 07-21-2011, 08:48

Knowing what someone is going to do does not mean that you are making them do it.

Triple7 · 07-21-2011, 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

You know what? You're right. I've looked at this before. The only thing that makes sense to me is pre-destination, when it comes to this group of religions. But that is not how the denominations see it. I should have seen this coming.

Well don't let me sway you towards pre-destination. There are arguments for both, hence the reason why this is the most debated "Christian topic".

John Calvin has a lot to say on the matter.

Triple7 · 07-21-2011, 08:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brasso

Knowing what someone is going to do does not mean that you are making them do it.

If you're God it does.
If God knows what you will do......can you do something different? No because he is all knowing.

BradD · 07-21-2011, 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

If we go on the assumption that gods plan, is what it is, and it is unknowable, what is the point of prayer?
I understand prayers of thanks. But prayers of any other sort seem, a waste of time, or something.
Your mom is sick, you pray for her to get better, that makes sense. But god already has his plan. And his plan may be for your mom to get worse, or die, or whatever. So praying for her to get better may be praying for something contrary to gods will.

It seems the only prayers which would make sense would be 1) Thanks and 2) gods will be done. That's it.
Am I missing something?

Not an easy question. See the following.

http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/...es/cslewis.htm

Triple7 · 07-21-2011, 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradD

Not an easy question. See the following.

http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/...es/cslewis.htm

I'm pretty much down to anything written by CS Lewis...but sooo long for internet mind

Brasso · 07-21-2011, 10:37

Quote:

If you're God it does.
If God knows what you will do......can you do something different? No because he is all knowing.

That's ridiculous. Read what I posted again.

I know that when I put food in my dogs bowl in the morning that he is going to eat it. Does that mean I made him eat it?

Triple7 · 07-21-2011, 11:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brasso

That's ridiculous. Read what I posted again.

I know that when I put food in my dogs bowl in the morning that he is going to eat it. Does that mean I made him eat it?

But you are not "all powerful and all knowing" if he has perfect knowledge of the future....then it's gonna happen just like that. Or he isn't all knowing.

BTW you don't know your dog is gonna eat the food. I left out food for my cat knowing that he would eat it.....but the damn dog did. lol

Also I'm arguing the other side of what I actually believe here so give me a little slack.

ksg0245 · 07-21-2011, 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brasso

That's ridiculous. Read what I posted again.

I know that when I put food in my dogs bowl in the morning that he is going to eat it. Does that mean I made him eat it?

I think the point is you can't to anything other than what God knows beforehand. You don't know if the dog will be distracted by a squirrel, say, or hit by a car before he gets a chance to eat. God presumably knows those things.

Brasso · 07-21-2011, 14:42

Yes, He does. But that doesn't mean you don't still make a choice. It's the choices we make, and the lessons we learn, that allow us to grow. He could have just skipped all of this and made those that choose Him perfect from the get go and not made us go through all of this world. But He didn't. He doesn't force our hand just because He already knows what it is.

frank4570 · 07-21-2011, 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brasso

Yes, He does. But that doesn't mean you don't still make a choice.

And he alread knows what that choice will be, all of your choices.

Quote:

It's the choices we make, and the lessons we learn, that allow us to grow. He could have just skipped all of this and made those that choose Him perfect from the get go and not made us go through all of this world. But He didn't. He doesn't force our hand just because He already knows what it is.

Then things are going to happen as they are, with or without your prayers. Unless he has already planned to listen to your prayers before you ever thought of making them.

Schabesbert · 07-21-2011, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by frank4570

Then things are going to happen as they are, with or without your prayers. Unless he has already planned to listen to your prayers before you ever thought of making them.

Yes. (To the "he has already planned to listen to your prayers before you ever thought of making them" part).