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Old 07-20-2011, 22:39   #1
frank4570
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Serious question for Christians and Jews.

If we go on the assumption that gods plan, is what it is, and it is unknowable, what is the point of prayer?
I understand prayers of thanks. But prayers of any other sort seem, a waste of time, or something.
Your mom is sick, you pray for her to get better, that makes sense. But god already has his plan. And his plan may be for your mom to get worse, or die, or whatever. So praying for her to get better may be praying for something contrary to gods will.

It seems the only prayers which would make sense would be 1) Thanks and 2) gods will be done. That's it.
Am I missing something?
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Old 07-21-2011, 06:56   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
If we go on the assumption that gods plan, is what it is, and it is unknowable, what is the point of prayer?
I understand prayers of thanks. But prayers of any other sort seem, a waste of time, or something.
Your mom is sick, you pray for her to get better, that makes sense. But god already has his plan. And his plan may be for your mom to get worse, or die, or whatever. So praying for her to get better may be praying for something contrary to gods will.

It seems the only prayers which would make sense would be 1) Thanks and 2) gods will be done. That's it.
Am I missing something?
Because we know G-d answers prayer as I pointed out in another thread and gave a few examples of prayers that were answered.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:30   #3
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He answers prayers of those who ask, within His will, and believe. Obviously praying for a sick person to recover is in His will. The problem is that most people don't believe. I would imagine that most answered prayers are in spite of the person not believing and His mercy, than prayers of faith.

He already said that anything you ask, believing, you will recieve.
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:41   #4
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So then, god changes his plan sometimes? Or is it that answering the prayer IS the plan?
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:48   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
So then, god changes his plan sometimes? Or is it that answering the prayer IS the plan?

Frank,
do you "Plan" for your children's future? Of course, or at least let's hope so. Do those plans sometime's change due to certain circumstances. For example, you plan to send your child to a certain college but they decide their heart is set on another and ask for your support. Do you not sometimes alter your original plans due to your love of your child and support them as long as they are not asking your blessing to do something evil or immoral?
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Old 07-21-2011, 07:53   #6
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Dude, I'm not god.

I am assuming that as you see it, god has it all worked out already. As an example, he already knows when my mom will die. So when that time comes, praying for her to get better is praying for something other than gods plan.
See what I'm saying?

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Frank,
do you "Plan" for your children's future? Of course, or at least let's hope so. Do those plans sometime's change due to certain circumstances. For example, you plan to send your child to a certain college but they decide their heart is set on another and ask for your support. Do you not sometimes alter your original plans due to your love of your child and support them as long as they are not asking your blessing to do something evil or immoral?
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:02   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
Dude, I'm not god.

I am assuming that as you see it, god has it all worked out already. As an example, he already knows when my mom will die. So when that time comes, praying for her to get better is praying for something other than gods plan.
See what I'm saying?
Dude,
I didn;t say you were. Let me point to the Tanach...

IIKings 20:1

1. In those days Hezekiah became critically ill, when Isaiah the son of Amoz the prophet came to him, and said to him, "So has the Lord said, 'Give orders to your household, for you are going to die and you shall not live.' "
2. And he turned his face toward the wall and prayed to the Lord, saying,
3. "Please, O Lord, remember now, how I walked before You truly and wholeheartedly, and I did what is good in Your eyes." And Hezekiah wept profusely.
4. And it was when Isaiah had not gone out to the inner court, and the word of the Lord came to him, saying,
5. "Return and say to Hezekiah the ruler of My people, 'So has the Lord God of your father David said, "I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold I shall heal you.
On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord.


Get it? G-d answers prayers.
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:13   #8
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Ok, your scripture says god DOES answer prayers, I get that. But it isn't what I am asking.
Does god CHANGE his plan?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FifthFreedom View Post
Dude,
I didn;t say you were. Let me point to the Tanach...

IIKings 20:1

1. In those days Hezekiah became critically ill, when Isaiah the son of Amoz the prophet came to him, and said to him, "So has the Lord said, 'Give orders to your household, for you are going to die and you shall not live.' "
2. And he turned his face toward the wall and prayed to the Lord, saying,
3. "Please, O Lord, remember now, how I walked before You truly and wholeheartedly, and I did what is good in Your eyes." And Hezekiah wept profusely.
4. And it was when Isaiah had not gone out to the inner court, and the word of the Lord came to him, saying,
5. "Return and say to Hezekiah the ruler of My people, 'So has the Lord God of your father David said, "I have heard your prayer; I have seen your tears. Behold I shall heal you.
On the third day you shall go up to the house of the Lord.


Get it? G-d answers prayers.
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Fear your government.
"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:15   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
Ok, your scripture says god DOES answer prayers, I get that. But it isn't what I am asking.
Does god CHANGE his plan?
G-d planned to exterminate those he took out of Egypt due to their sin of the Golden Calf. Moshe prayed they be forgiven, the plan was changed,.

Hezekiah was a righteous person, but G-d decreed he would die ( there was a reason) He prayed, G-d heard his prayer and added to his life. ( change of plans)
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:19   #10
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This comes with a Christian debate written all over it. Pre-destination or Determinism.
For the pre-destine camp there is a line that has been set out and no matter what, the line will be followed. So prayers of intercession aren't really valid. (Though most pre-destinationist won't say that)
Free Willers will say the opposite that intercessory prayers are valid and they can petition God. But then God can't know the future, (Or there is no future to know.) But most of them don't like that option.

I won't say were I fall.......
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:22   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FifthFreedom View Post
G-d planned to exterminate those he took out of Egypt due to their sin of the Golden Calf. Moshe prayed they be forgiven, the plan was changed,.
Is that because there were *unforseen* complications? Or did he just change his mind or what?

He didn't know this is how this whole thing was going to go down? Was god surprised by this guys prayers?
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For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:28   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FifthFreedom View Post
G-d planned to exterminate those he took out of Egypt due to their sin of the Golden Calf. Moshe prayed they be forgiven, the plan was changed,.

Hezekiah was a righteous person, but G-d decreed he would die ( there was a reason) He prayed, G-d heard his prayer and added to his life. ( change of plans)
A series of good answers, FF, but I'm getting the feeling that you're answering a contrarian who has no other purpose than to be a contrarian.
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:28   #13
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Originally Posted by Triple7 View Post
This comes with a Christian debate written all over it. Pre-destination or Determinism.
For the pre-destine camp there is a line that has been set out and no matter what, the line will be followed. So prayers of intercession aren't really valid. (Though most pre-destinationist won't say that)
Free Willers will say the opposite that intercessory prayers are valid and they can petition God. But then God can't know the future, (Or there is no future to know.) But most of them don't like that option.

I won't say were I fall.......
You know what? You're right. I've looked at this before. The only thing that makes sense to me is pre-destination, when it comes to this group of religions. But that is not how the denominations see it. I should have seen this coming.
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"Rats aren't creepy, experimenting on them IS." Emilie Autumn.

For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:28   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
Is that because there were *unforseen* complications? Or did he just change his mind or what?

He didn't know this is how this whole thing was going to go down? Was god surprised by this guys prayers?
How in the world would I know if G-d was "surprised??"
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:48   #15
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Knowing what someone is going to do does not mean that you are making them do it.
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:57   #16
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You know what? You're right. I've looked at this before. The only thing that makes sense to me is pre-destination, when it comes to this group of religions. But that is not how the denominations see it. I should have seen this coming.
Well don't let me sway you towards pre-destination. There are arguments for both, hence the reason why this is the most debated "Christian topic".

John Calvin has a lot to say on the matter.
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:58   #17
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Knowing what someone is going to do does not mean that you are making them do it.
If you're God it does.
If God knows what you will do......can you do something different? No because he is all knowing.
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Old 07-21-2011, 08:59   #18
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
If we go on the assumption that gods plan, is what it is, and it is unknowable, what is the point of prayer?
I understand prayers of thanks. But prayers of any other sort seem, a waste of time, or something.
Your mom is sick, you pray for her to get better, that makes sense. But god already has his plan. And his plan may be for your mom to get worse, or die, or whatever. So praying for her to get better may be praying for something contrary to gods will.

It seems the only prayers which would make sense would be 1) Thanks and 2) gods will be done. That's it.
Am I missing something?
Not an easy question. See the following.

http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/...es/cslewis.htm
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Old 07-21-2011, 09:03   #19
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Not an easy question. See the following.

http://www.worldwithoutend.info/bbc/...es/cslewis.htm
I'm pretty much down to anything written by CS Lewis...but sooo long for internet mind
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Old 07-21-2011, 10:37   #20
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Quote:
If you're God it does.
If God knows what you will do......can you do something different? No because he is all knowing.
That's ridiculous. Read what I posted again.

I know that when I put food in my dogs bowl in the morning that he is going to eat it. Does that mean I made him eat it?
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