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Old 07-31-2011, 02:50   #41
TreverSlyFox
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Quote:
Originally Posted by engineer151515 View Post
I would like to add that some LEO refused to confiscate firearms.

They deserve to be commended but will probably never be recognized for making a personal stand against the order.

I have YET to see any report of any Officers refusing the order.

What I did see was a cross section of Officers from departments around the country that DID confiscate weapons as ordered and didn't bat an eye at doing it. Maybe a couple did refuse, but the overwhelming majority didn't give it a seconds thought.

I think New Orleans and Katrina gave us a very good example of the current Law Enforcement mentality in this country. They have the same mistaken belief that "I was just following orders." gives them a free pass, as if it will give them a defense like the Nazis thought at the Nuremberg trials.
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Old 07-31-2011, 07:20   #42
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It won't be popular but........

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Originally Posted by TreverSlyFox View Post
I have YET to see any report of any Officers refusing the order.

What I did see was a cross section of Officers from departments around the country that DID confiscate weapons as ordered and didn't bat an eye at doing it. Maybe a couple did refuse, but the overwhelming majority didn't give it a seconds thought.

I think New Orleans and Katrina gave us a very good example of the current Law Enforcement mentality in this country. They have the same mistaken belief that "I was just following orders." gives them a free pass, as if it will give them a defense like the Nazis thought at the Nuremberg trials.
....every news story & video clip available then and now shows these LEO putting on their "soldier wanna be" gear and breaking into houses and beating up old ladies!

Put your money where your mouth is: what story or what video is there showing even 1 LEO saying "NO....we won't do that, it's unconstitutional!"

Here is SSG May stating he would not confiscate firearms:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLaKs...eature=related

Since when does the local Mayor and his flunkie police chief have the authority to "suspend" the Constitution?
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:55   #43
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Originally Posted by TreverSlyFox View Post
I have YET to see any report of any Officers refusing the order.
I know of them

Spoke personally.

Don't expect a news report on them.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:12   #44
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I seem to remember a whole lot of aid, search and rescue, and relief efforts. Seems all of those were good things........
I was referenceing the gun confiscating aspect of the Katrina situation. I did not realize you were talking about the whole situation in general. Of course there was a lot of good done by good ppl. The heavy handed taking away of the constitutional rights of American citizens had no shining moments.
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Old 07-31-2011, 10:50   #45
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I was referenceing the gun confiscating aspect of the Katrina situation. I did not realize you were talking about the whole situation in general. Of course there was a lot of good done by good ppl. The heavy handed taking away of the constitutional rights of American citizens had no shining moments.
I was going to say the same as AK. The military did offer a LOT in the way of rescue efforts.

There was just so much that indicated the logistics just weren't there on the government's side. Examples of this would be the massive lots of FEMA trailers that weren't utilized, ice trucks going on wild goose chases and not getting where they were needed, soldiers standing around without orders/missions for days on end, etc.

In regard to gun confiscations...again, think of the logistics of resisting. It's a death sentence for you unless no one on the opposing side can call for backup AND you nail all of them. Otherwise you will instantly become enemy number one and they dedicate much attention and equipment to "stopping" you.

On the side of the government I guess I do not understand the logic of disarming people when the SHTF. I will be worried about surviving, not going on a shooting rampage. And if I had such a desire, why would I pack up my family and belongings or be sitting tight in my house rather than getting to it already?? Kind of like everyday life. The CCWer is NOT the enemy of the public/LE...it's the nut that begins to open fire on everyone.

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Old 07-31-2011, 12:25   #46
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Do not expect the SC do do a damn thing. This is the same body that said a black man is worth 3/5 of a white man. They also are "confused" about what the FF "really meant' with the 2nd Am, as it is actually very clear to any one who reads the writings of the Founders. Their "confusion" is willful, as they do not like the idea of people beiong "allowed" to own weapons individually.
YET...they can extrapolate a right to an abortion from the 4th amendment..??

Honestly, i think when cops 'just follow" orders, you do not have a choice as a nation. Gun confiscation is like Crystallnaght-sp?, things will get far worse afterwards.
People who seize your guns while you are not a threat DO NOT have your best interests in mind. I cannot envision ANYTHING good coming from being disarmed.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:38   #47
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Good thread. I really appreciate what the military did in post Katrina rescue operations but I am ticked off at the people who stayed behind without preps making themselves a royal pain in the butt for others who had to risk their lives and spend lots of money to get them out when they could have gotten on a bus or walked out of N.O.
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Old 07-31-2011, 13:45   #48
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As the son of a high ranking high profile police officer I was raised with more respect for the law and the uniform and of course the men and women who wear it than most anyone else.

I am also a NJ resident and a gun owner and therefore I have the worst gun rights in the country, not much I can do.

I constantly see people on this forum type things like "I'd NEVER let some government 'trample on my constitutional rights' - [that one always makes me chuckle]" and sometimes i've read how "I'd never let them take my guns!"...

this is , to me, akin to "I ain't lettin that **** give ME no ticket , I wasnt speedin, HE CANT DO THAT I KNOW MY RIGHTS I KNOW THE LAW" - yeah make sure u tell him that! And yell it at him witht that attitude, definitely, u let him know! bottom line, reality check- 99% of the time you'll lose, the officer will win, that's just how it is.

Same as gun confiscation: I believe someone said, the bottom line is: give them up or be prepared to defend them; that is to say, shoot at the cops that want to take them. There is 99.9% I'd never do that, we'd have to be at TEOTWAWKI for that to be an option. So despite tough talk from whoever about not giving up your guns, If the government wants them they're gonna take them! its as simple as that, and you're powerless to do anything about it.

if SHTF and they want them, they're getting them unless you shoot the guys that are there to trake them. In which case they return with more people and kill you. Its just that simple. Do I like it, does anyone? No and I doubt anyone does. it's just the truth.

Your "rights get trampled on" whenever necessary, the more and quickier this is realized the easier it is to adapt to life and live AROUND that fact.
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Old 07-31-2011, 13:48   #49
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Originally Posted by ScrappyDoo View Post
As the son of a high ranking high profile police officer I was raised with more respect for the law and the uniform and of course the men and women who wear it than most anyone else.

I am also a NJ resident and a gun owner and therefore I have the worst gun rights in the country, not much I can do.

I constantly see people on this forum type things like "I'd NEVER let some government 'trample on my constitutional rights' - [that one always makes me chuckle]" and sometimes i've read how "I'd never let them take my guns!"...

this is , to me, akin to "I ain't lettin that **** give ME no ticket , I wasnt speedin, HE CANT DO THAT I KNOW MY RIGHTS I KNOW THE LAW" - yeah make sure u tell him that! And yell it at him witht that attitude, definitely, u let him know! bottom line, reality check- 99% of the time you'll lose, the officer will win, that's just how it is.

Same as gun confiscation: I believe someone said, the bottom line is: give them up or be prepared to defend them; that is to say, shoot at the cops that want to take them. There is 99.9% I'd never do that, we'd have to be at TEOTWAWKI for that to be an option. So despite tough talk from whoever about not giving up your guns, If the government wants them they're gonna take them! its as simple as that, and you're powerless to do anything about it.

if SHTF and they want them, they're getting them unless you shoot the guys that are there to trake them. In which case they return with more people and kill you. Its just that simple. Do I like it, does anyone? No and I doubt anyone does. it's just the truth.

Your "rights get trampled on" whenever necessary, the more and quickier this is realized the easier it is to adapt to life and live AROUND that fact.
While you state the unfortunate reality of the situation... how do you explain us not having funny accents and being subjects today?

-Emt1581
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Old 07-31-2011, 13:54   #50
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redundancy

that's why you have backup plans......if you can't bug out with all your weapons before they arrive with the swat team...then you can have many of them hidden and some cached or some at a remote location/family/friend/etc...
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Old 07-31-2011, 13:56   #51
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
While you state the unfortunate reality of the situation... how do you explain us not having funny accents and being subjects today?

-Emt1581
I have no wish to argue with you, but using the American Revolution in reference to this as part of that argument is basically the same thing as saying, lets discuss calibers, I support xxx caliber, and if you don't think its good enough let me shoot you with it Hah ha ha then we'll see how bad it is!

Anything is possible, and sure, if it was so absolutely terribly bad that the American Revolution II was happening, I'd certainly revisit my feelings toward the government. We'll see when that happens, tho.
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Old 07-31-2011, 14:12   #52
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Originally Posted by ScrappyDoo View Post
I have no wish to argue with you, but using the American Revolution in reference to this as part of that argument is basically the same thing as saying, lets discuss calibers, I support xxx caliber, and if you don't think its good enough let me shoot you with it Hah ha ha then we'll see how bad it is!

Anything is possible, and sure, if it was so absolutely terribly bad that the American Revolution II was happening, I'd certainly revisit my feelings toward the government. We'll see when that happens, tho.
I do not understand your relation of the revolution to a caliber preference.

What you seem to be saying is that we are powerless against the government and should just submit to their demands. My point was, if our founding fathers had done that, we would have never broken away from England.

But that is if the numbers are there. If not, you become a target who gets unlimited manpower and resources aimed at your demise.

So if enough people have the "from my cold dead hands" attitude, AND ACT ON IT, I'd put my money on them rather than the gov/LE in that situation.

Problem is, I think our society has become soft and whipped. Otherwise welfare and the entitlement class would not exist...and that's just one example.

-Emt1581
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Old 07-31-2011, 14:26   #53
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It's cool man... I shouldn't have posted to begin with. I stopped using this particular forum over a year ago because I realized I disagreed with almost everyone. The thing is, i AM very in to preparing and survival and I do thing something bad is gonna happen. but that's where my agreement basically seems to end, and I really have no want to debate people online, so I shouldn't have posted something that calls for debate. My own fault sorry.
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Old 07-31-2011, 14:42   #54
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post

What you seem to be saying is that we are powerless against the government and should just submit to their demands.

Problem is, I think our society has become soft and whipped. Otherwise welfare and the entitlement class would not exist...and that's just one example.

-Emt1581
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScrappyDoo View Post
It's cool man... I shouldn't have posted to begin with. I stopped using this particular forum over a year ago because I realized I disagreed with almost everyone. The thing is, i AM very in to preparing and survival and I do thing something bad is gonna happen. but that's where my agreement basically seems to end, and I really have no want to debate people online, so I shouldn't have posted something that calls for debate. My own fault sorry.
This cracked me up! Scrappy just put into action what EMT stated was the problem! He doesn't like it, so he just gave up.

I find myself agreeing with EMT at the oddest times!! I think he is right on this one.
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Old 07-31-2011, 15:23   #55
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"gave up" means i don't want to be rude, the only thing I can do to get my point across is to say rude things, and that just makes the problem worse.

I think part of the problem is, a lot of people here think that they're in the majority with their opinions... on a lot of stuff. If the 2008 election didn't explain this, A lot of people in this country feel a particular way... Now I don't really like most of those ways either, but a "majority" do...

And just to get my point across here-- the guns got taken away in Katrina, right? And there was Already a law against it and they made an extra law, but the guns got taken away, right? Plan on it happening again if necessary.
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Old 07-31-2011, 17:43   #56
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"gave up" means i don't want to be rude, the only thing I can do to get my point across is to say rude things, and that just makes the problem worse.

I think part of the problem is, a lot of people here think that they're in the majority with their opinions... on a lot of stuff. If the 2008 election didn't explain this, A lot of people in this country feel a particular way... Now I don't really like most of those ways either, but a "majority" do...

And just to get my point across here-- the guns got taken away in Katrina, right? And there was Already a law against it and they made an extra law, but the guns got taken away, right? Plan on it happening again if necessary.
That's where I'm confused...why was it "necessary" in the first place?

It looked more like a knee jerk reaction from politicians who had their head up their butt and didn't know what else to do so they did/ordered what came natural to them instead of doing some real good. My money says that's where the mayor/chief's efforts ended. You think they had the slightest clue how and where to send the rescue choppers?? Hell no!! That was all military! At that point Nagen was just prepping himself for the next photo op and news conference...talking about chocolate cities and such.

In regard to the 2008 election, my personal belief is that the people fell for Obama's claims of "Change" and were so thirsty for it they were ready to drink the sand. Let's see what happens the next time around.

Either way the American people better wise up and start taking responsibility for themselves or they'll find they are asking the government permission to take a leak and will end up crossing their legs in obedience when told no.

-Emt1581
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Old 07-31-2011, 18:53   #57
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Either way the American people better wise up and start taking responsibility for themselves or they'll find they are asking the government permission to take a leak and will end up crossing their legs in obedience when told no.

-Emt1581

Dang, look at that! I am agreeing with EMT twice in one day!!
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Old 07-31-2011, 19:33   #58
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.....I actually asked in Cop Talk or somewhere else what a citizen should do and it turned out that, although a cop might be doing something illegal, you still cannot legally shoot them in self-defense. Instead you are to hand over your guns and comply, then pray the case doesn't get buried in civil court later on...

Now if our founding fathers had done that, I'm pretty sure we'd all be subjects and speaking in funny accents.

-Emt1581
Cops are not lawyers or judges (generally speaking there could be a few). Each has different laws. IIRC, a citizen can use deadly force against an officer, that is committing illegal act involving deadly force. However, you may not live to see the officer convicted. If you live, you will need a good lawyer and very solid evidence of the officers illegal deadly force act.
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Old 07-31-2011, 19:58   #59
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Either way the American people better wise up and start taking responsibility for themselves or they'll find they are asking the government permission to take a leak and will end up crossing their legs in obedience when told no.

-Emt1581
Sorry to break it to everyone but urination and defecation are already regulated by the EPA.
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Old 07-31-2011, 20:13   #60
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Cops are not lawyers or judges (generally speaking there could be a few). Each has different laws. IIRC, a citizen can use deadly force against an officer, that is committing illegal act involving deadly force. However, you may not live to see the officer convicted. If you live, you will need a good lawyer and very solid evidence of the officers illegal deadly force act.
But look at the situation at hand. This seems to be THE example. ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate guns. Officer follows the illegal order. Homeowner tells the cops to go pound sand instead of handing them over, then shuts the door. Cops break the door down and, seeing the homeowner with a gun in his hands just start shooting. The homeowner shoots the officer(s).

Even though the police were following an illegal order, and then entered the home without probable cause or a warrant just before opening fire on a citizen that posed no direct threat to him/them....that citizen was fired upon illegally. Seems like a justifiable shoot on the part of the citizen by what you're saying.

IMO, once that unit's back-up arrives, without some sort of escape tunnel or genius plan, you're toast and will be lucky to have the chance to go to court over the issue.

As as side-note I'd just like to say that this thread does not seek to bash all cops. They do a damn tough job and rarely are thanked for it. What we are talking about here is a very specific situation and circumstance that took place and needs to be discussed and prepared for so it doesn't happen again.

-Emt1581
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