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Old 08-01-2011, 00:19   #61
racerford
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The situation as describe you would likely be introuble. I have copied the text of the self defense law in Texas You basically cannot resist and the officer has to use more than necessary force. To win you would ned lots of witnesses and proably video, and that may not be enough. Of course if there are other officers around, who may not see everything that you do, or that you do, may use deadly force to protect their fellow officer. So you may not live to go to trial on you lawful use of self defense.

Best bet is to have multiple weapons, and only have one out and turn it over. It is a losing battle in the moment. You can not survive if you are dead. This is not the "die a martyr" sub-board.

9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in
Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against
another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is
immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or
attempted use of unlawful force.
(b) The use of force against another is not justified:
(1) in response to verbal provocation alone;
(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows
is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace
officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or
search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under
Subsection (c);
(3) if the actor consented to the exact force used or
attempted by the other;
(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted
use of unlawful force, unless:
(A) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly
communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing
he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts
to use unlawful force against the actor; or
(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or
discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences
with the other person while the actor was:
(A) carrying a weapon in violation of Section
46.02; or
(B) possessing or transporting a weapon in
violation of Section 46.05.
(c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is
justified:
(1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the
peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts
to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search;
and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably
believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself
against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use
of greater force than necessary.
(d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this
subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:08   #62
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Sorry to break it to everyone but urination and defecation are already regulated by the EPA.
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Old 08-01-2011, 10:52   #63
UneasyRider
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But look at the situation at hand. This seems to be THE example. ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate guns. Officer follows the illegal order. Homeowner tells the cops to go pound sand instead of handing them over, then shuts the door. Cops break the door down and, seeing the homeowner with a gun in his hands just start shooting. The homeowner shoots the officer(s).

Even though the police were following an illegal order, and then entered the home without probable cause or a warrant just before opening fire on a citizen that posed no direct threat to him/them....that citizen was fired upon illegally. Seems like a justifiable shoot on the part of the citizen by what you're saying.



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Never open the door. Do you have a warrant? No? Get off of my land.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:02   #64
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this is a real no win situation: in an emergency, you really need to be armed. History is full of examples of those that were killed or starved to death AFTER voluntarily giving up their weapons.
YET, resist, and even if you beat the confiscation squad, there is no way that any court will allow you to walk on this after a trial. No amount of justification is enough in the eyes of the law, to let a peon shoot an official legitimately.

I also do not buy the "just give them one gun and hide the others" idea. Officers will know what you have, or are likley to have by other indicators in your house, 4473's rat neighbors/freinds/relatives, ect. Having an extra set or three of your basic guns is a great idea, but i am not sure if it is the real solution here, it just puts off the inevitable.

In America, its quite disturbing that we have this discussion this often. it was not a possibility past generations would have taken seriously.
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Old 08-01-2011, 12:59   #65
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See I know I am lucky because I've got some smarts and a great education, and to no fault of others they may or may not have that. BUT There is no excuse for ignorance- lack of knowledge is one thing, but lack of facts and wisdom is something else, particularly when you ignorantly arrogantly promulgate incorrect things. You're liable to cause yourself legal and or medical troubles, or worse SoMEONE ELSE will listen to that and get themselves into issue.

The Police ABSOLUTELY can and WILL do MANY things to you , up to and including coming into your house and/or searching it "without a warrant" ! Are you kidding me?? I mean haven't you at LEAST watched COPS where "in plain view" is clearly used and abused, they "see" things "openly" that then gives them the right to conduct their search which you or I would not really be so easy to have noticed "openly" because they weren't so openly displayed??? Net result: bad guy goes to jail .

They can TOTALLY "see things" when you've opened the door to tell them what they can and can't do. Make sure you try it next time. Oh by the way, they're also well within their rights to search around if they're arresting you. They could have an Arrest warrant for you, and when they're there to arrest you they need to search around for their safety. (AkA a Protective Sweep). Of particular importance is the fact that - THEY DON'T NEED TO ARRIVE WITH AN ARREST WARRANT. they can show up to your house to ask if you've seen the lost little doggie or kitten from the next neighborhood. Oh you have an attitude? You just assaulted the officer when you slammed that door on him or her, now you're under arrest. Now you're getting searched. Your place is getting searched. Evidence is getting siezed. All because you knew the law and you told him what's up. Net result : you're going to jail.

I didn't even include the rights of police to use "exigent circumstances" which when properly "utilized" and let that mean properly explained to their supervisor and then the judge after the fact, basically lets them do whatever they "need to do" want to do to bust your ass and search and sieze your stuff.

And make no further mistake, 4th Amendment protecting "unreasonable" search and seizure is basically more helpful to law enforcement than those tough-guy citizens who "know their rights" because properly documented situation and circumstance of the officers is almost always granted, agreed, and protected by judges.


And I haven't even MENTIONED "probable cause" yet- thats a whole NEW Can of worms.

I say all this because if you all believe we're so close to SHTF and it's gonna SHTF and we're in such big trouble, then now more than ever you NEED to understand the way it really works.... Or despite your text and intentions / "what you know" - you'll be the first in jail or casualty of crossing the law enforcement officers / government.
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Old 08-01-2011, 15:29   #66
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Originally Posted by ScrappyDoo View Post
See I know I am lucky because I've got some smarts and a great education, and to no fault of others they may or may not have that. BUT There is no excuse for ignorance- lack of knowledge is one thing, but lack of facts and wisdom is something else, particularly when you ignorantly arrogantly promulgate incorrect things. You're liable to cause yourself legal and or medical troubles, or worse SoMEONE ELSE will listen to that and get themselves into issue.

The Police ABSOLUTELY can and WILL do MANY things to you , up to and including coming into your house and/or searching it "without a warrant" ! Are you kidding me?? I mean haven't you at LEAST watched COPS where "in plain view" is clearly used and abused, they "see" things "openly" that then gives them the right to conduct their search which you or I would not really be so easy to have noticed "openly" because they weren't so openly displayed??? Net result: bad guy goes to jail .

They can TOTALLY "see things" when you've opened the door to tell them what they can and can't do. Make sure you try it next time. Oh by the way, they're also well within their rights to search around if they're arresting you. They could have an Arrest warrant for you, and when they're there to arrest you they need to search around for their safety. (AkA a Protective Sweep). Of particular importance is the fact that - THEY DON'T NEED TO ARRIVE WITH AN ARREST WARRANT. they can show up to your house to ask if you've seen the lost little doggie or kitten from the next neighborhood. Oh you have an attitude? You just assaulted the officer when you slammed that door on him or her, now you're under arrest. Now you're getting searched. Your place is getting searched. Evidence is getting siezed. All because you knew the law and you told him what's up. Net result : you're going to jail.

I didn't even include the rights of police to use "exigent circumstances" which when properly "utilized" and let that mean properly explained to their supervisor and then the judge after the fact, basically lets them do whatever they "need to do" want to do to bust your ass and search and sieze your stuff.

And make no further mistake, 4th Amendment protecting "unreasonable" search and seizure is basically more helpful to law enforcement than those tough-guy citizens who "know their rights" because properly documented situation and circumstance of the officers is almost always granted, agreed, and protected by judges.


And I haven't even MENTIONED "probable cause" yet- thats a whole NEW Can of worms.

I say all this because if you all believe we're so close to SHTF and it's gonna SHTF and we're in such big trouble, then now more than ever you NEED to understand the way it really works.... Or despite your text and intentions / "what you know" - you'll be the first in jail or casualty of crossing the law enforcement officers / government.
That was a nice visit back to my undergrad crim. just. courses... so how is it again we became citizens instead of subjects? More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law? Hell you can even answer how to do it illegally so long as you don't play the "be somewhere else" card...

-Emt1581
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Old 08-01-2011, 18:19   #67
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post
That was a nice visit back to my undergrad crim. just. courses... so how is it again we became citizens instead of subjects? More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law? Hell you can even answer how to do it illegally so long as you don't play the "be somewhere else" card...

-Emt1581
Never open the door!
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Old 08-01-2011, 18:21   #68
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Never open the door!
That MIGHT work for girl scouts and salesman...

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Old 08-01-2011, 18:35   #69
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That MIGHT work for girl scouts and salesman...

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Old 08-01-2011, 18:37   #70
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Clearly you haven't seen Despicable Me

They'll use cookie robots
No, no I haven't.

Now back to the issue of keeping our guns safe from police/soldiers who are breaking the law by following an illegal order to confiscate our guns...

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Old 08-01-2011, 19:31   #71
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As far as the "casualty" on the bridge, IIRC it was a MENTALLY HANDICAPPED guy and his brother just trying to cross that bridge to get to safety. Police told them to turn back and they refused. The MH brother was shot and killed. Again, this is what I remember from seeing the story in a news special a year or so later.

Now as to what happened and such...

Police confiscated guns. The citizens did not put up much of a fight. That old lady in her kitchen kinda proved the point of the citizens being in the right and the police being in the wrong. No LE were shot or killed. From what I understand there was ALREADY a law in place the forbade the gun confiscations but it happened anyway.

We've talked about this dozens of times here. It either ends up in a flame war or everyone gets real quiet. So I'll go ahead and ask it...

Would you really have resisted? Would you shoot police officers (even though they were breaking the law in trying to take your guns)? Do you think the fact that LE was breaking the law would matter or save you from the needle IF you survived?

What this really comes down to is...are you prepared to die for what you believe is right? There are those that say get out of dodge ahead of time or ASAP but sometimes that just isn't possible (this point usually turns into a pissing match as well).

I actually asked in Cop Talk or somewhere else what a citizen should do and it turned out that, although a cop might be doing something illegal, you still cannot legally shoot them in self-defense. Instead you are to hand over your guns and comply, then pray the case doesn't get buried in civil court later on...

Now if our founding fathers had done that, I'm pretty sure we'd all be subjects and speaking in funny accents.

-Emt1581
Well GOD forbid but I can not see myself just giving up my guns so my wife could be raped or killed by some dirt bag looter & i am helpless to do anything to save her or myself. So I guess I would have to do what I have to do & hope that I live though it. I guess it would be kill or be killed!!! I think you would be better off going down fighting then not fighting at all.
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Old 08-01-2011, 19:33   #72
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"...you gotta know when to hold'em. Know when to fold'em. Know when to walk away, know when to run..."

Each scenario is individual in nature. Each has to reconcile when and where the line is drawn and when enough's enough. Lines are being drawn every day. On both sides. It was interesting to watch it unfold and see the actions of both during the aftermath. What would I have done ?

Well, they are the government and after all, they are here to help.
You are joking are you not??
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Old 08-01-2011, 19:43   #73
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new or leans is run by the same clowns that ran it before.....
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Old 08-01-2011, 20:24   #74
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Never open the door!
They just kicked it in if no one opened up.
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Last edited by panzer1; 08-01-2011 at 20:25..
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Old 08-01-2011, 20:54   #75
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new or leans is run by the same clowns that ran it before.....
Worse perhaps. We now have the royal family in complete control of the uber-corrupt democratic machine

What we DO have is one kick ass Federal prosecutor tho

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 08-01-2011 at 20:55..
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Old 08-01-2011, 21:01   #76
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They just kicked it in if no one opened up.
No warrant? Kick in my door? I hope you like surprises, I'll be waiting in the back of the house.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:22   #77
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No warrant? Kick in my door? I hope you like surprises, I'll be waiting in the back of the house.
It's really not that simple when the courts, and a jury of your peers, might have you locked away for life because we have become a country of groups, where some groups have more rights than others based on their job or whatever.

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/g...3df229697.html

Quote:
In a 3-2 decision, Justice Steven David writing for the court said if a police officer wants to enter a home for any reason or no reason at all, a homeowner cannot do anything to block the officer's entry.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:47   #78
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In a 3-2 decision, Justice Steven David writing for the court said if a police officer wants to enter a home for any reason or no reason at all, a homeowner cannot do anything to block the officer's entry.
Not sure what he was smoking, but I'd love to hear his views on warrants.

I also think his terminology was off. We CAN do a whole lot to block entry if we want...at least initially.

With all the back and forthing and interesting tidbits, no one has been able to offer sound reasoning yet with regards to keeping our weapons while confiscators carry out ILLEGAL orders...again without playing the "be somewhere else" card...

-Emt1581
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:41   #79
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EMT1581,

If you have some insight on how to accomplish this, I would be interested in hearing it, as you seem to have more legal knowledge than I. If you don't want to post it, please feel free to PM. Confidentiality assured.

Thanks.
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:36   #80
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It's really not that simple when the courts, and a jury of your peers, might have you locked away for life because we have become a country of groups, where some groups have more rights than others based on their job or whatever.

http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/g...3df229697.html

[/COLOR][/LEFT]
I'm no fool, you shoot a cop around here and they will kill you. I'm just sayin' that I really believe in the constitution and don't plan on living unless it's as a free man, anything else and you can keep it.
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