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Old 08-02-2011, 10:37   #81
cyrsequipment
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I've never understood the "logic" of forcibly resisting the police.

You would not survive, period.

You may be right, the police may be illegally trying to confiscate your guns, but you'll still be dead.

The best plan is to lay low, don't draw attention to yourself and wait it out.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:40   #82
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That was a nice visit back to my undergrad crim. just. courses... so how is it again we became citizens instead of subjects? More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law? Hell you can even answer how to do it illegally so long as you don't play the "be somewhere else" card...

-Emt1581
The difference between the American Revolution and the taking of guns now revolves around:

- The AR was generally supported by the populace. Gun owners have been marginalized/demonized by the general population and dispersed in society - so they do not have support.

- AR British looked up as oppressors - now police viewed as help by the general public

I agree with others that say that although there is a written law against confiscation of guns by lawful owners; in time of an emergency I can see confiscation happening. First the person enforcing the law has to know about them - will they? and will they refuse to do it? - I doubt it. Second, they take the gun and say fight it in court. What happens if those enforcing the law are wrong? - nothing and you will be lucky to get your guns back. You will not will a court case on your front door step.

My understanding is that gun stores must keep records of who buys guns from them but there is no central data base. So, authorities must get the info from a gun store or go house to house. If this is not correct please let me know.



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Old 08-02-2011, 15:01   #83
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Uneasy,

I'd go a bit easy on throwing around that "I'm a free man" stuff. This is America, 2011. It's not a free country and hasn't been for many years. A semi-free country, yes. But not free. The list of things you can't do here is huge.

More on topic.

Obviously if you want to keep your property in the face of forced confiscation one has several choises.

Don't be there when they kick your door in.

Don't have what they are looking for available for them to find.

Fight.

Since my space communicator's battery has died Scottie won't beam me up anymore so I know of no other options. Sorry.


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Old 08-02-2011, 16:07   #84
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Catshooter and a few others, I thank you because finally some logic, common sense, and reality got thrown around up in here.

I mean I am seriously not trying to be mean here but it's almost close to mental illness if you *really believe* you can rely on 'no warrant? get out/get off while I slam the door in your face!' and seriously, comparing this to the american revolution is basically admitting ignorance, lack of education, or again mental illness cause, it was a while ago, when you know, they hadn't harnessed electricity yet or uh , formed the government that made the laws you're taking about selectively accepting or dismissing according to your whims or {misguided} interpretation of it.

And let me finish with this: It has been proven time and again in this nation that Ignorance is not accepted as an excuse; however, I don't like it but I damn sure have to live with it. Just because *you* don't know what the laws are and what the police/government/etc. can and cannot do doesn't' mean THEY Don't know and again, if its NECESSARY they're gonna do what they have to do regardless. You can cry thomas paine and american revolution and get off my property with no warrant till you're blue in the face -but the ACLU ain't gonna help someone who's plumb wrong. And realize, THIS is the type of thing that can potentially make normal law abiding gun owners look bad. I really don't want them coming for MY guns because YOU dare them to "come and take them" with a misguided attempt at legal molon labe.
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Old 08-02-2011, 16:17   #85
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EMT1581,

If you have some insight on how to accomplish this, I would be interested in hearing it, as you seem to have more legal knowledge than I. If you don't want to post it, please feel free to PM. Confidentiality assured.

Thanks.
I'm just as curious as I've never heard of a sound solution to the issue.

However if those sworn to uphold the law no longer do...why do we credit them with being a law enforcer instead of dealing with them accordingly?

If we are passive enough as a culture to just accept our inability to defend ourselves from tyranny... what did the founders fight and die for and what good is having a constitution or rights??

The fact that we as S&Pers cannot figure out a solution AND as so eager to accept defeat does not sit well with me. Maybe it is reality but that reality needs to change. NOW is the time to do it, not during the next SHTF when JBT's come a knockin...

As for my personal opinion, I'll preface it by saying it would make sense in a perfect world, but then again in a perfect world the original problem wouldn't exist. Here goes though...

I'm thinking if confiscators knew...without a doubt...they would not be supported by the courts in their efforts and that the use of deadly force was specifically granted to use against anyone attempting to ILLEGALLY confiscate firearms during times of crisis...they would hopefully think twice instead of blindly following orders.

Personally, if I knew I would lose in court and would be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law PLUS I would be subject to death...unless I'm defending my family...I wouldn't do whatever the offense in question was! If my job was in question, my boss can go pound sand! I'll happily file a wrongful termination suit when we saddle up afterwards. That's another thing that bothers me, how eager the confiscators were to comply. No griping, no questioning...nothing!

But there is no such dictation. There is a "you can't do that" in place. This obviously has the same effect as "gun-free zones" or "drug-free school zones" otherwise LE/Mil/etc. wouldn't even consider doing such a thing let along blindly obey such orders.

A major problem with such a law would be how the defense attorney's would wipe their rear ends with it every time a career criminal, POS, scumbag shot an officer. This would come into play and be used in some perverted way as justification.

Again, this is a very specific situation but it has the potential to turn this country on it's head and make the current economic situation look like a tropical vacation!

-Emt1581
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Old 08-02-2011, 16:21   #86
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Catshooter and a few others, I thank you because finally some logic, common sense, and reality got thrown around up in here.

I mean I am seriously not trying to be mean here but it's almost close to mental illness if you *really believe* you can rely on 'no warrant? get out/get off while I slam the door in your face!' and seriously, comparing this to the american revolution is basically admitting ignorance, lack of education, or again mental illness cause, it was a while ago, when you know, they hadn't harnessed electricity yet or uh , formed the government that made the laws you're taking about selectively accepting or dismissing according to your whims or {misguided} interpretation of it.

And let me finish with this: It has been proven time and again in this nation that Ignorance is not accepted as an excuse; however, I don't like it but I damn sure have to live with it. Just because *you* don't know what the laws are and what the police/government/etc. can and cannot do doesn't' mean THEY Don't know and again, if its NECESSARY they're gonna do what they have to do regardless. You can cry thomas paine and american revolution and get off my property with no warrant till you're blue in the face -but the ACLU ain't gonna help someone who's plumb wrong. And realize, THIS is the type of thing that can potentially make normal law abiding gun owners look bad. I really don't want them coming for MY guns because YOU dare them to "come and take them" with a misguided attempt at legal molon labe.
...and yet you still didn't answer the question...

"More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law? Hell you can even answer how to do it illegally so long as you don't play the "be somewhere else" card... "

Spewing insults and claims of ignorance does not make you correct. While you might be frustrated and disagree, at least share your thoughts of how to solve the problem with us.

-Emt1581

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Old 08-02-2011, 16:34   #87
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What happens when the opposing force rams the door open or rips it from the frame?

-Emt1581
Even in the case of a State of Emergency, wouldn't this be unlawful entry? Or Warrantless Search and Seizure?
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Old 08-02-2011, 17:06   #88
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...and yet you still didn't answer the question...

"More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law? Hell you can even answer how to do it illegally so long as you don't play the "be somewhere else" card... "

Spewing insults and claims of ignorance does not make you correct. While you might be frustrated and disagree, at least share your thoughts of how to solve the problem with us.

-Emt1581

Seriously I can't even communicate with you, you're just on a whole different level man. I've tried ignoring you and you just keep spitting the same stuff and people are all saying you're wrong, but you keep saying the same stuff. I mean you sound like the damn crazy kid from Arizona, what's nxt are you gonna say" how can you deny mathematics???" next?? You want me to help you figure out how to beat the police and government? Make a decision because at first you were saying they COULDN"T accomplish what they wanted to accomplish, now they CAN but it's illegal so I have to answer how to stop it? No thanks man, You go on scheming and I'm going to keep on having the utmost respect for the law and government and if and when they need to flex their muscles, they can use YOU as the example, and me and mine will talk about your case in the news over dinner.

And seriously, I don't know how to put this, what I said IS CORRECT, if you don't agree with it you're not only misguided you're PLAIN WRONG. I'm sorry if you Don't like the way the world works, the way our laws and government etc function. I'm really sorry it's not "the way it should be. " you're REALLY not helping yourself by believing that, you need to start formulating your plans for the future based on the actual truth not what you think it is or should be. I say that with no disrespect intended , it's actually concern because it seems like you either don't know or just don't want to accept the power of the government and law enforcement.
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Old 08-02-2011, 17:11   #89
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Seriously I can't even communicate with you, you're just on a whole different level man. I've tried ignoring you and you just keep spitting the same stuff and people are all saying you're wrong, but you keep saying the same stuff. I mean you sound like the damn crazy kid from Arizona, what's nxt are you gonna say" how can you deny mathematics???" next?? You want me to help you figure out how to beat the police and government? Make a decision because at first you were saying they COULDN"T accomplish what they wanted to accomplish, now they CAN but it's illegal so I have to answer how to stop it? No thanks man, You go on scheming and I'm going to keep on having the utmost respect for the law and government and if and when they need to flex their muscles, they can use YOU as the example, and me and mine will talk about your case in the news over dinner.

And seriously, I don't know how to put this, what I said IS CORRECT, if you don't agree with it you're not only misguided you're PLAIN WRONG. I'm sorry if you Don't like the way the world works, the way our laws and government etc function. I'm really sorry it's not "the way it should be. " you're REALLY not helping yourself by believing that, you need to start formulating your plans for the future based on the actual truth not what you think it is or should be. I say that with no disrespect intended , it's actually concern because it seems like you either don't know or just don't want to accept the power of the government and law enforcement.

Third or forth time now...

"More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law? Hell you can even answer how to do it illegally so long as you don't play the "be somewhere else" card..."

Once again, back off with the insults. For someone that seems to worship the law, you do not follow rules to well, at least not the TOS for GT.

-Emt1581
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Old 08-02-2011, 17:28   #90
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I always find these threads interesting and concerning for a variety of reasons. It started out with quite a different spin, remember? "What really happened?" Now it has evolved into 'what would you do?'

Personally, I think keeping a very low profile is a good start. I think having a plan for a variety of 'what if' scenarios is the answer. If you're making your plan after the situation, you're likely either too late or will make a less-than-optimal decision.

In the case of illegal confiscations, I have no desire to endanger a misguided LEO. If they are illegally confiscating weapons, I might give them a weapon to confiscate. The rest of the details have been discussed in many other threads. I would not resist. I would take quite a different tact and dazzle them with my cordial cooperation.

IF you choose to take a "stand" with LEOs that are acting outside the law, how do you think you will prevail? Perhaps you, your wife, and your children are going to take on your local LE? I think we've seen at least one example that jumps immediately to mind of how that went for folks in recent times. Not well.
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Old 08-02-2011, 17:30   #91
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The difference between the American Revolution and the taking of guns now revolves around:

- The AR was generally supported by the populace. Gun owners have been marginalized/demonized by the general population and dispersed in society - so they do not have support.

- AR British looked up as oppressors - now police viewed as help by the general public

I agree with others that say that although there is a written law against confiscation of guns by lawful owners; in time of an emergency I can see confiscation happening. First the person enforcing the law has to know about them - will they? and will they refuse to do it? - I doubt it. Second, they take the gun and say fight it in court. What happens if those enforcing the law are wrong?

During a SHTF, you name the forcible felony and it could happen as a result of being disarmed

AND

- nothing and you will be lucky to get your guns back. You will not will a court case on your front door step.

My understanding is that gun stores must keep records of who buys guns from them but there is no central data base. So, authorities must get the info from a gun store or go house to house. If this is not correct please let me know.

Not sure on that one.



-
You raise good points about the AR vs. today. However with the AR vs. confiscation, not so much....still a decent comparison.

My history is a little foggy but I think, initially the AR was not even remotely supported by the majority.

Gun owners are demonized by anti-gunners and guns are demonized by far more than that.

How are confiscators NOT oppressors? But yes, except for this VERY SPECIFIC situation...the POLICE are there to help.

As far as there being a law against it, but it still happening... what is the point of the law other than the feel good examples I gave before that are nothing more than illusions?

When asking it the "enforcer" will "know about" prohibiting laws...I bet if their butt was on the line they would. Otherwise the power trip and/or criminal mentality takes over...no consequences...sure I'll do it, why not??

-Emt1581
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Old 08-02-2011, 17:35   #92
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I always find these threads interesting and concerning for a variety of reasons. It started out with quite a different spin, remember? "What really happened?" Now it has evolved into 'what would you do?'

Personally, I think keeping a very low profile is a good start. I think having a plan for a variety of 'what if' scenarios is the answer. If you're making your plan after the situation, you're likely either too late or will make a less-than-optimal decision.

In the case of illegal confiscations, I have no desire to endanger a misguided LEO. If they are illegally confiscating weapons, I might give them a weapon to confiscate. The rest of the details have been discussed in many other threads. I would not resist. I would take quite a different tact and dazzle them with my cordial cooperation.

IF you choose to take a "stand" with LEOs that are acting outside the law, how do you think you will prevail? Perhaps you, your wife, and your children are going to take on your local LE? I think we've seen at least one example that jumps immediately to mind of how that went for folks in recent times. Not well.
I'm certainly not arguing your OPINION here jdavonic. However, what is the point of a law banning a given practice if LE/Soldiers defy it and in doing so endanger the public??

Also with that dazzling cordiality, what do you do if the single weapon is not enough and they search your home anyway? I've actually already planned for such a situation (not really with confiscation in mind but it serves the same purpose) but if you have not and all your guns end up being taken...when you probably need them the most...how do you defend yourself?

Thanks

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Old 08-02-2011, 17:42   #93
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I'm certainly not arguing your OPINION here jdavonic. However, what is the point of a law banning a given practice if LE/Soldiers defy it and in doing so endanger the public??
Generally LE/Soldiers don't "defy" the laws. I believe the people giving the orders are suspect. While I appreciate the frustration and concerns, IMHO...'you live today to fight tomorrow' and fighting LE/Soldiers in a confiscation scenario will likely result in 'fight today, die today'.

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Originally Posted by emt1581
Also with that dazzling cordiality, what do you do if the single weapon is not enough and they search your home anyway? I've actually already planned for such a situation (not really with confiscation in mind but it serves the same purpose) but if you have not and all your guns end up being taken...when you probably need them the most...how do you defend yourself?
Again, just my opinion...but I think you need to be monitor and be aware of your surroundings. You need to have plans before a disaster. If you have both, the other issues can be addressed.
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Old 08-02-2011, 18:09   #94
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Generally LE/Soldiers don't "defy" the laws. I believe the people giving the orders are suspect. While I appreciate the frustration and concerns, IMHO...'you live today to fight tomorrow' and fighting LE/Soldiers in a confiscation scenario will likely result in 'fight today, die today'.


Again, just my opinion...but I think you need to be monitor and be aware of your surroundings. You need to have plans before a disaster. If you have both, the other issues can be addressed.
As I said, LE and soldiers do a damn good job and risk their lives every day! This is just a VERY specific situation we are talking about here. And in following such an order they would be defying the law.


It's the nature of the "live" that subjects you to death. If you "live today" by giving in and giving up your guns...what happens when those who wish to do you harm come a calling? Is that not the same thing as death...or worse?

And yes, fight today probably means die today.

-Emt1581
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Old 08-02-2011, 18:12   #95
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It's the nature of the "live" that subjects you to death. If you "live today" by giving in and giving up your guns...what happens when those who wish to do you harm come a calling? Is that not the same thing as death...or worse?

And yes, fight today probably means die today.

-Emt1581
Where did I say that I would give up all of my guns
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Old 08-02-2011, 19:02   #96
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Where did I say that I would give up all of my guns
Ah.. 2 shay sir.

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Old 08-02-2011, 21:17   #97
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I have a question.
What was the response by the authorities AFTER-WARDS?
Did anyone admit their mistake?
Any apologies?
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Old 08-02-2011, 22:30   #98
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.......I shouldn't chime... awww, whatever

I'm on the "power/JBT" side of this thing. On this side, lawful citizens are safe from me. If on the other side of that door? What I would do is to hopefully be able to talk them down and away when they're knocking. If unable to shoo them.... I just don't know. I do know that I've not as much to lose as most here.

Scrappy, I understand what you're saying, and you're points are valid when steeped in the reality of this "thang." However, EMT making the AR comparison is logical in the narrow scope. A majority of our populace feared the British Army, the most 'powerful' military in the world in that time. The majority said as you are saying, we cannot prevail against that kind of might. Many willfully succumbed to confiscations, intrusions, unlawful entry and habitation of their abodes etc. They did so in the name of "I am a loyal supporter of the government, and I cannot prevail even if I felt otherwise." Yet, a point came when enough became enough... and someone, a group, stood up.

What occurred in NOLA, although wasn't predictable in my mind at the time, is in hindsight a "that figures." Fine folks in NOLA but, the majority turned out to be not so upstanding. A majority entitlement society of people who were unprepared in mostly all ways to fend in the face of disaster. They turned to what they knew, and thought entitled to take and do... the police as well as the thugs that is.

The NOLA neighborhoods that banned together and formed armed security were relatively unmolested by the government or by the thugs. What's that saying for strength in numbers and the government's unwillingness to confront organized citizens? There were no standoffs or shots fired between these people and the police. The police in NOLA were no better than the thugs, that is each only preyed on the weak. EMT has eluded to this end.

Under the right conditions and circumstances, one man can be a martyr. The masses can be motivated and incited to rebel. I suppose EMT et al have to make their choice as to if they are that one, and hope the conditions are ripe to evolve a resistance.

What happened in NOLA may just not occur in say... Charleston. The mindsets on both sides of the fence are different from NOLA. Also, awareness of the ills of NOLA are fresh on both sides of this issue. The police and politicians are less likely to foolishly act. The citizens are hopefully less likely to foolishly stand-by and be loyal subjects if the police do unlawfully act.

During the aftermath of NOLA, I find it interesting that the courts did, in fact, support the Constitution and back the tenets of "WeThe" when it came down to it. Although the specifics and accountablility were not aggressively addressed as many would have liked, the courts did stand Constitutionally firm in most cases.


"The majority is never right. Never, I tell you! That's one of these lies in society that no free and intelligent man can help rebelling against. Who are the people that make up the biggest proportion of the population -- the intelligent ones or the fools? I think we can agree it's the fools, no matter where you go in this world, it's the fools that form the overwhelming majority."
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:54   #99
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However if those sworn to uphold the law no longer do...why do we credit them with being a law enforcer instead of dealing with them accordingly?
Because they might kill you, imprison your family, etc. If you do survive the first round, when things calm down a jury of your peers will imprison you for fighting back against Officer Friendly.

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More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law?
You learn to fight without weapons. Seriously, people have been doing it since the first caveman. A pointy stick or a machete, and a blind corner, tips the odds dramatically in your favor against an intruder even if he's armed with a firearm.

Don't be 100% dependant on things that can be taken away. Learn to fight with what God gave you...
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:15   #100
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Originally Posted by emt1581 View Post

"More importantly how do we retain our weapons to defend ourselves from rapists, murderers, looters, etc. during times of crisis when an ILLEGAL order is given to confiscate them WHILE following the law? Hell you can even answer how to do it illegally so long as you don't play the "be somewhere else" card..."

-Emt1581
In the scenarios that you have discussed, you don't.

If they are coming for your stuff, you already made some sort of error.

1. You made yourself known (most likely walking around visibly armed, or talking like you have been through this thread)

2. Didn't hide your stuff.


You've already made one error, don't make a bigger one and try to fight the police, you will not win.

I've worked in LE for almost my entire career, people are not going to stop the police. I am not that good, and I know enough about this stuf to know that there is not an indivicual or family or county that is capable to resisting an all out assault from LEOs. You won't survive.

I can tell you that most LEOs in this country (local, county, state, federal) are not against armed citizens. BUT they are against people that openly threaten officers, citizens or government officials. They are also going to follow orders, if you (or anyone else) makes an arse of themselves, or starts making threats like have been made in this thread, you will be looked at.

I do not condone illegal acts by Law Enforcement, but if you turn this into an "us against them" situation (and we are talking about at least a partial breakdown of society in this thread), you are putting some brave men and women in a position where they will be forced to defend themselves.

In the scenarios that have been discussed, the best thing to do is keep a low profile and ride it out.

You ain't Rambo.
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