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Old 07-27-2011, 16:11   #1
frank4570
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So, when did god change his mind?

So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?
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Old 07-27-2011, 16:16   #2
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Read Galatians from 2:15 to the end. The answer is there.
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Romans 3:23 -> 6:23 -> 5:8 -> 10:9 -> 10:13


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Old 07-27-2011, 16:56   #3
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So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?
It's pretty sad that an atheist thought of this. If only more Christians would come out of their box and think.

Not that I'm encouraging atheism. Far from it. But he makes some good points.
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Old 07-27-2011, 17:00   #4
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Brasso, I won't debate any of this endlessly, but I have a question for you. If you believe in keeping the Law as part of your salvation (and I'm sorry if I'm mis-stating that), how do you get past Galatians?
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Old 07-27-2011, 17:06   #5
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The rules of any religion are made by the people who run the church.

If you only need to be a good person to be saved, you don't need a church.

If you don't need a church, you won't contribute money to a church.

The people who run the church are the ones who need your money to live the lifestyle they enjoy. They make the rules.

It's not hard to understand.
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Old 07-27-2011, 19:33   #6
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So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?
The problem is that there aren't any "good" people, but since Jesus died for all sinners from the beginning of creation, God has been able to be merciful.

Peter wrote that the rules haven't changed.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
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Old 07-27-2011, 20:26   #7
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Brasso, I won't debate any of this endlessly, but I have a question for you. If you believe in keeping the Law as part of your salvation (and I'm sorry if I'm mis-stating that), how do you get past Galatians?
I don't believe in keeping the Law as part of my salvation. This is where Christianity misses the mark, so to speak.

My salvation was secured when Messiah died on the cross and I accepted Him. The works come in later, as I try to live an obedient life to please Him. You don't keep the Law to get saved. You keep it because you ARE saved. That's part of the Covenant. He redeems you and in return you try not to keep sinning. This is the True Gospel.

REPENT! and believe for the Kingdom of God is a hand. Christians have the grace and forgiveness down pretty good. It's the repent part that they seem to have a problem with. You can't repent to something that you think no longer exists. Look up the definition of repent. It doesn't simply mean to feel sorry about what you did or didn't do. It means to turn and go back the other way. There is only One way. There has always been only One way. God has been trying to get His people to follow it for thousands of years.

Galatians has nothing to do with the Law becoming void.

Isa 48:12 “Listen to Me, O Yaʽaqoḇ, and Yisra’ĕl, My called: I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last.
Isa 48:13 “Also, My hand has laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand has stretched out the heavens. I call to them, let them stand together.
Isa 48:14 “All of you, gather yourselves, and hear! Who among them has declared these? יהוה has loved him. Let him do His pleasure on Baḇel, and His arm be on the Chaldeans.
Isa 48:15 “I, I have spoken, I have also called him, I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isa 48:16 “Come near to Me, hear this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, I was there. And now the Master יהוה has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
Isa 48:17 Thus said יהוה, your Redeemer, the Set-apart One of Yisra’ĕl, “I am יהוה your Elohim, teaching you what is best, leading you by the way you should go.
Isa 48:18 “If only you had listened to My commands! Then your peace would have been like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Isa 8:20 To the Torah and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this Word, it is because they have no light.

There is a pretty good partial study of Galatians here:
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/.../lesson60.html
http://www.wildbranch.org/teachings/.../lesson61.html
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Old 07-27-2011, 21:34   #8
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Originally Posted by Vic Hays View Post
The problem is that there aren't any "good" people, but since Jesus died for all sinners from the beginning of creation, God has been able to be merciful.

Peter wrote that the rules haven't changed.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
So, you're saying that non jews and non christians have always, and still are able to get to heaven same as jews and christians?
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Old 07-27-2011, 21:38   #9
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Why are there so MANY Gods?

Why are there so MANY religions?

Why are there so MANY variations of religions within Religions?

How many people do you know who are sure that "their" religion is the only "right" one and all others are false? What if ALL religions are equally false?

There are ONLY TWO invariable constants about Religions throughout history, worldwide.

(1) The existence of A Religion of some kind or another.

(2) Clergy within said Religion who derive their sustenance from the contributions of the faithful marks who buy whatever is their load of nonsense about "what God wants" of them.

Some Clergy say God demands a 10% Tithe envelope in the offering plate every Sunday. Some such Clergy demand to see your Tax Returns to ensure that you are not shorting God's take from you.

At least one Clergyman said that God demanded that several hundred faithful followers feed cyanide-laced Kool-Aide to their children and then drink some themselves. And they did.

Some Clergy say that God demands that they hijack airliners and slam them into skyscrapers. And they did.

Gee, God sure cannot seem to make up his mind about what he wants from us, does he/she/it?

Could it possibly be that (gasp!) the unquestionable Clergy are lying to us about what God wants from us? Either because they are just as deluded as their predecessors who lied to them, or they are simply lying for their own personal benefit? Hard to say which, but it doesn't matter anyway.

Even the Gods themselves are not constant.

That which is "important" is that which is always a constant.

Gods are never constant from one religion to another.

Therefore, the details of the individual God worshipped are unimportant.

They are "mportant" only to provide moral authority to the clergy, so said clergy can demand material support of the gullible faithful.



They also waste a lot of time on meaningless, button sorting, "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" arguments and "Holy Book" quotations such as you see thread after thread after thread about here in the GT-RF.
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Old 07-27-2011, 22:15   #10
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So, you're saying that non jews and non christians have always, and still are able to get to heaven same as jews and christians?

Not me. The Bible says so. God is willing to overlook ignorance as long as it is not willful. With knowledge comes responsibilty.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.
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Old 07-28-2011, 07:43   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?
Short answer:

He never did.
There is no "Hell" in the Torah either.
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שנית מסדה לא תיפול
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:01   #12
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Short answer:

He never did.
There is no "Hell" in the Torah either.
That is correct. The idea of a continually burning Hell is not Biblical. There is the grave, and there is the garbage dump where things get burned up. The idea of being tortured in an afterlife is of pagan origin.

Malachi 4:1 " For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," says the Lord of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
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Old 07-28-2011, 10:08   #13
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Its all in the bible, you just have to find it!
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Old 07-28-2011, 17:37   #14
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Its all in the bible, you just have to find it!
Fine.

First, prove that the Bible is in fact the revealed word of God.

If it isn't, it is not worth much more than the paper it is printed on.



And, NO, "you have to accept it on faith" is nothing but a cop-out.

"Faith" is nothing more than "Opinion".

Unproven opinion.
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Old 07-28-2011, 18:04   #15
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So, during the time of the jews, gods rule was that all good people in the world go to heaven. The 7 Nohide laws. That seems pretty reasonable.

Then he created jesus. And created hell. And made the new law that everybody goes to hell no matter what kind of person they are. Except for those who worship the guy who lived in Bethlehem, those people get to go to heaven.

Why did he reverse his rules?
First is knowing that there are no good people, none of us are born worthy of salvation as is and back then for God to grant remission from sin there had to be shedding of blood.

God didn't then create Jesus and hell, Jesus was created long before then but only came to earth as God in the flesh to redeem mankind once and for all, the perfect Sacrifice. Father God deemed our earthly sacrifices as insufficient and He loves us so much that He sent His Son to be the Savior of all mankind as long as man believed and followed Jesus' ways.

Hell/Sheol/Tarturus/etc was created when Lucifer rebelled against God. He and 1/3 of Heaven were cast down to earth and some into the pit bound in chains until the time appointed by Yahweh revealed in Revelation. We are here because during the rebellion we chose to inhabit bodies of man and get a second chance, those who didn't choose to are forever damned. Those who have the eyes to see that they need Jesus will be granted eternal life so that we can go back home to our original state, which is in Heaven with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit.

Also even back then, when the "good" people, being those who lived by the Law of God died, they didn't go to Heaven. They went to the better side of Hades. Now after Jesus' resurrection, all go to Heaven. But the Bible also says there is going to be a new Heaven and a new earth when Satan's 7000 year timeline is up.

So why did God change the rules? Animal sacrifice was no longer sufficient. His Son Yeshua would be the final and ultimate sacrifice for all of humanity. Belief in and obedience to Jesus is key to making it to heaven.

PRAISE JESUS FOREVER AND FOREVER!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAian48rpRA
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Old 07-28-2011, 18:07   #16
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That is correct. The idea of a continually burning Hell is not Biblical. There is the grave, and there is the garbage dump where things get burned up. The idea of being tortured in an afterlife is of pagan origin.
That might be worth it's own thread.
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Old 07-28-2011, 21:02   #17
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Fine.

First, prove that the Bible is in fact the revealed word of God.

If it isn't, it is not worth much more than the paper it is printed on.

Even if one denies that the Bible is the word of God... It is an example of ancient literature. It sheds life on ancient culture and belief. It has reverberated throughout the art and philosophy of western civilization. The language of the King James Version has had major impact on English literature. Looks like a lot of worth to me.

Are the Iliad and the Odyssey trash because Zeus doesn't sit on Olympus?
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Old 07-28-2011, 21:21   #18
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Nevermind.
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Yeshayahu 9:7 Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of David and over His reign, to establish it and sustain it with justice and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

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Old 07-28-2011, 21:23   #19
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Even if one denies that the Bible is the word of God... It is an example of ancient literature. It sheds life on ancient culture and belief. It has reverberated throughout the art and philosophy of western civilization. The language of the King James Version has had major impact on English literature. Looks like a lot of worth to me.

Are the Iliad and the Odyssey trash because Zeus doesn't sit on Olympus?
I think "Thor" is upset because Odin doesn't sit in Asgard.
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:52   #20
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Fine.

And, NO, "you have to accept it on faith" is nothing but a cop-out.

"Faith" is nothing more than "Opinion".

Unproven opinion.
Hebrews 11:"1 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2 This is what the ancients were commended for.

3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4 By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.”[a] For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she[b] considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13 All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14 People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15 If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17 By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18 even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[c] 19 Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22 By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
23 By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24 By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25 He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26 He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27 By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31 By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.[d]
32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground. 39 These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect. "
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