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Old 08-02-2011, 01:28   #1
knoxvegasdaddy
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stolen handgun

%^$#%*^$&^!

I feel like a tool! I have let a handgun get out of my care & custody, and now it roams the street. I'm kicking myself in the ass over a number of things. Any help/guidance/advice you can offer is much appreciated.


1. Sorry, gents! The thought of one of you "finding" it the wrong way has me pretty damn upset.

2. I want it back (duh), but I'd be completely happy if I never saw it again, as long as it is off the street.


missing: HS 2000 generation 2 9mm (Springfield XD before Springfield bought the production rights for those not familiar) black frame, o.d. green teflon coated slide. (slide was black from factory)

I'm 99% certain it was taken by my now former sole employee, who was out of work 3 weeks (hepatitus c) and came back to work on Friday. He's a prior felon (cocaine possession 6 years ago) allegedly trying to get his life back on track post prison / post nasty divorce.

To date, a hard working, reliable person, but as it turns out, according to the Deputy who took the report, both of his brothers are "clients".

The gun went missing between Friday evening and Sunday morning from my work truck.

Unfortunately, I don't have the damn serial number. I have the serial number, make, and model of every gun I have ever owned except that one, and it is the only used gun i owned. I traded a friend for it in 2000, and apparently never added it to the list. I know the distributor where it was bought, but not who it was sold to originally.

I learned Sunday that serial # is required for entry into the Federal database, so the gun can't be logged in as stolen. what a screw up on my part!

If anyone can offer any help at all, I'll be eternally grateful.
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Old 08-02-2011, 01:44   #2
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Do you have any pictures of the gun, and if you do can you possibly get the serial number from the picture?

Also do you have the box, or the fired casing?(Long shot, and I assume that you already thought of it, but I am throwing it out there.)

Call the guy you got it from and tell him what happened. He may have the serial number somewhere, and he might rememeber who he got it from. Start tracking from there until you can find the original owner/purchaser. Then you can call the gunstore, and find the serial number. Gunstores have to keep the 4473 until they close, and then send them to the ATF. There is a 4473 for that gun somewhere. Not to mention the original HS 2000 are not that common.

Best of luck, it sucks that you are going through this, but if you provide the police with a picture or soe other proof of what the gun is, while it wont go into NCIC as a stolen, it may still find its way back to you.

Work on traking down the serial number though. That will help you the most.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:22   #3
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got MUCH fired brass! i keep 'em

no photos

had it 11 years, don't remember the guys name

Intrac was the sole north american importer, they were hq'd in knoxville tn, and they are to my knowledge, out of business, and their records are in care of atf probably, but I think they may have retailed through craigs firearms supply, which is very much in business! thats a start. thanks
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:06   #4
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Did you buy it at a gun store? If so, you can make contact with them to get the SN out of their FFL log.
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:59   #5
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I should have asked, other than the serial number, is there any identifying information or something unique that makes this particular gun stand out?

The OD Teflon coated slide is pretty unique for an HS2000. That is something that I would have the officer/detecive include in the report as well. Also, if you haven't given a written statement, consider doing so.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:25   #6
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Hire some illegal aliens to search form it. I hear they will do things that Americans just won't do. And they work cheap.

Just a thought.
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:04   #7
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Even if you have the serial number and it is recovered, it may be a looooong tiiiiiiiime 'til you see it again. My stolen pistol was recovered 18 months ago... and it is still sitting in the evidence locker in town... while the dude they recovered it from sits in jail and the debate on what else they can charge him with continues. I think this is weird. And I really would like my gun back. Although I did use the excuse of it being gone to buy a couple more, Mr.C isn't going to let that fly again...

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Old 08-02-2011, 09:57   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs.Cicero View Post
Even if you have the serial number and it is recovered, it may be a looooong tiiiiiiiime 'til you see it again. My stolen pistol was recovered 18 months ago... and it is still sitting in the evidence locker in town... while the dude they recovered it from sits in jail and the debate on what else they can charge him with continues. I think this is weird. And I really would like my gun back. Although I did use the excuse of it being gone to buy a couple more, Mr.C isn't going to let that fly again...

Mrs.Cicero
I took 2 guns in trade for a heating system I was selling. Later sell one of them to a cop. He runs the # the next day. I get a call from the Troopers. Stolen!!! 1994 in Wasilla. I meet up with the cop I sold it to. Give him his money back. Then try to get the Troopers to go after the guy I got it from. I want my money back. I get this instead. "Well it's been so long we won't be able to ever trace it back to the thief." Case closed. Sometimes I wonder if I was scammed by the Troopers. Happened 12 months ago. Is that cop hunting with a free .458 Winchester model 70? Gotta wonder.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:33   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrs.Cicero View Post
Even if you have the serial number and it is recovered, it may be a looooong tiiiiiiiime 'til you see it again. My stolen pistol was recovered 18 months ago... and it is still sitting in the evidence locker in town... while the dude they recovered it from sits in jail and the debate on what else they can charge him with continues. I think this is weird. And I really would like my gun back. Although I did use the excuse of it being gone to buy a couple more, Mr.C isn't going to let that fly again...

Mrs.Cicero
That's nuts.

We generally photograph and return stolen property immediately.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:51   #10
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That's nuts.

We generally photograph and return stolen property immediately.
Even guns? I'd ask the evidence desk whatever happened to the right to a speedy trial for the accused (only because I want my gun back, not out of any sympathy for the mope), but it's not her fault - BATF is involved somehow, and I do not know anything else about the circumstances of the recovery. For all I know he used it to kill someone and the prosecutor wants to wave the gun around at the trial. If there ever is a trial. Or maybe the prosecutor just really likes HKs and wants to play with it awhile. Whatever. I just want my pistol back before I'm too old and decrepit to shoot it.


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Old 08-02-2011, 11:05   #11
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Originally Posted by smokeross View Post
I took 2 guns in trade for a heating system I was selling. Later sell one of them to a cop. He runs the # the next day. I get a call from the Troopers. Stolen!!! 1994 in Wasilla. I meet up with the cop I sold it to. Give him his money back. Then try to get the Troopers to go after the guy I got it from. I want my money back. I get this instead. "Well it's been so long we won't be able to ever trace it back to the thief." Case closed. Sometimes I wonder if I was scammed by the Troopers. Happened 12 months ago. Is that cop hunting with a free .458 Winchester model 70? Gotta wonder.
You didn't get scammed by the troopers. I've worked similar cases. Hand to hand transactions are hard to trace, and the trail usually goes cold quickly. Almost no one identifies people they buy guns from. 16 years is a LONG time, and that gun has probably changed hands 10 times. At the least, almost no one would be able to remember who they got it from.

Not only would it be virtually impossible to track down who actually stole it, the statute of limitations probably ran out 10 years ago.
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Old 08-02-2011, 11:29   #12
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Even guns? I'd ask the evidence desk whatever happened to the right to a speedy trial for the accused (only because I want my gun back, not out of any sympathy for the mope), but it's not her fault - BATF is involved somehow, and I do not know anything else about the circumstances of the recovery. For all I know he used it to kill someone and the prosecutor wants to wave the gun around at the trial. If there ever is a trial. Or maybe the prosecutor just really likes HKs and wants to play with it awhile. Whatever. I just want my pistol back before I'm too old and decrepit to shoot it.


Mrs.Cicero
I've never seen an exception. There is no real evidentiary value in keeping the gun so long as it is confirmed to be your gun. The only thing we "get" by keeping the gun is the ability to bring it from evidence and in to court and say "this is the exact gun that we took off of the person."

As far as the right to a speedy trial goes, a lot of times a defendant will waive speedy trial for one reason or another. Sometimes those rights are suspended as well, for example if a person's competency or fitness to stand trial are in question.

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You didn't get scammed by the troopers. I've worked similar cases. Hand to hand transactions are hard to trace, and the trail usually goes cold quickly. Almost no one identifies people they buy guns from. 16 years is a LONG time, and that gun has probably changed hands 10 times. At the least, almost no one would be able to remember who they got it from.

Not only would it be virtually impossible to track down who actually stole it, the statute of limitations probably ran out 10 years ago.
Agreed. This is all the more reason to do FTF transactions through an FFL if you are even the least bit uncomfortable. As an officer, I would be willing to check a serial number for stolen in a FTF sale under the condition that both the selling and receiving party were present and I had actual, physical possession of the weapon when the check was performed.
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Old 08-02-2011, 15:26   #13
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I took 2 guns in trade for a heating system I was selling. Later sell one of them to a cop. He runs the # the next day. I get a call from the Troopers. Stolen!!! 1994 in Wasilla. I meet up with the cop I sold it to. Give him his money back. Then try to get the Troopers to go after the guy I got it from. I want my money back. I get this instead. "Well it's been so long we won't be able to ever trace it back to the thief." Case closed. Sometimes I wonder if I was scammed by the Troopers. Happened 12 months ago. Is that cop hunting with a free .458 Winchester model 70? Gotta wonder.
Yep. Nutt'n gets past you.
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Old 08-02-2011, 16:05   #14
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I've never seen an exception. There is no real evidentiary value in keeping the gun so long as it is confirmed to be your gun. The only thing we "get" by keeping the gun is the ability to bring it from evidence and in to court and say "this is the exact gun that we took off of the person."

As far as the right to a speedy trial goes, a lot of times a defendant will waive speedy trial for one reason or another. Sometimes those rights are suspended as well, for example if a person's competency or fitness to stand trial are in question.
Oh, it's my gun. I bought it new. I have the original receipt. I reported it stolen within 30 days of discovering it missing. Every couple months I call them and ask about it. They say, "Yeah, we still have it. No, you can't have it back until after the trial, which hasn't even had a date set. Call again in another 60 days." I was so happy when it was recovered... thinking I'd get it back... next time I call I'll ask who would have to sign off to release it and see where that takes me. I hate being a squeaky wheel...

Why on earth would anyone voluntarily waive their right to a speedy trial? I understand suspending it for a competency exam/hearings. But why waive rights voluntarily? What does that achieve?

Mrs.Cicero
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Old 08-02-2011, 18:30   #15
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Why on earth would anyone voluntarily waive their right to a speedy trial? I understand suspending it for a competency exam/hearings. But why waive rights voluntarily? What does that achieve?

Mrs.Cicero
For starters, there's always the hope off getting off... While it may just be a pipe dream, many defendants think that stretching it out increases their chances of acquittal, or they could get offered a sweet deal due to clogged courts.

For most it's just doing all they can to delay the inevitable. County jails tend to be a little "nicer" than the State Penn. I don't think inmates are as prone to violate each other at county. Its been my understanding that the majority of inmates would like to stay at county as long as possible (especially since that time counts toward their sentence).

I've also heard rumor that the State CO's at TDCJ, here in Texas, aren't nearly as "nice" as County CO's... Unless they're in Williamson County. Those guys can't seem to get to TDCJ fast enough.
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Old 08-02-2011, 18:39   #16
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Every couple months I call them and ask about it. They say, "Yeah, we still have it. No, you can't have it back until after the trial, which hasn't even had a date set. Call again in another 60 days." I was so happy when it was recovered... thinking I'd get it back... next time I call I'll ask who would have to sign off to release it and see where that takes me. I hate being a squeaky wheel...
That would be the 6th Amendment, and the accused's right to 'confront' witnesses. The right to confront and cross-examine witnesses also applies to physical evidence; the prosecution must present physical evidence to the jury, providing the defense ample opportunity to cross-examine its validity and meaning. Prosecution generally may not refer to evidence without first presenting it.

The prosecution can't present evidence they don't have, because they gave it back to you.
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Old 08-02-2011, 18:48   #17
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That would be the 6th Amendment, and the accused's right to 'confront' witnesses. The right to confront and cross-examine witnesses also applies to physical evidence; the prosecution must present physical evidence to the jury, providing the defense ample opportunity to cross-examine its validity and meaning. Prosecution generally may not refer to evidence without first presenting it.

The prosecution can't present evidence they don't have, because they gave it back to you.
Well, hell, as the owner of the evidence, I'd like the right to negate his waiver of his right to a speedy trial, because I want my gun back. Let's call that "victim's rights" and- Cicero inserting comment - please excuse Mrs.C's fascist tendencies, she just wants more guns.

Never mind. Someone needs a turkey pot pit and a beer.

Mrs.Cicero
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Old 08-02-2011, 20:40   #18
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That would be the 6th Amendment, and the accused's right to 'confront' witnesses. The right to confront and cross-examine witnesses also applies to physical evidence; the prosecution must present physical evidence to the jury, providing the defense ample opportunity to cross-examine its validity and meaning. Prosecution generally may not refer to evidence without first presenting it.

The prosecution can't present evidence they don't have, because they gave it back to you.
Generally the prosecutor will consult with the defense attorney and judge in the earler stages of the case; and secure the defense attorney's stipulation that any photographs of the evidence may be used in place of the evidence. Once that happens the item is returned to the owner.

In the event the defense attorney disputes this, the item may well sit in lockup through the trial.

Or, the judge can decide that the victim's need for the item to be returned outweighs the defense attorney's objection to it being returned, and he can order it's return and the substitution of photographs for it.
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Old 08-02-2011, 20:52   #19
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The only thing I can reccomend is not to make blind accusations. That can be considered slander, especially since the person is the ONLY former employee, for someone that knows you personally it wouldnt be too hard to figure out who you are talking about
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Old 08-02-2011, 21:22   #20
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This is always how it goes with guns...they get "special treatment" because they're guns. If I shot somebody on duty around here, I would never see my gun again. Virtually guarantee it. If I ran them over with my car, we'd have it fixed and back on the road ASAP.

Likewise, Ms. Cicero's car gets stolen and she has it back in a day or two after it's recovered. A gun, though, that sits for months.
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