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Old 08-14-2011, 11:23   #1
Japle
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Misplaced credit

I play in a church band. This morning between songs, one of the pastors told the congregation about an old woman who’d nearly died.
She had a 95% blockage in one of her coronary arteries. The doctors put in a stent to open the artery and now she’s going to be going home in a couple of days.

Naturally, the pastor gave all the credit for her recovery to God. This, IMNSHO, is a total crock.

The credit should go, in no particular order, to:

The cardiac surgeon who performed the operation.
The medical researchers who developed the procedure.
The medical researchers who developed the medicated stent used in the procedure.
The engineers, programmers, technicians and service personnel who designed and built the equipment, wrote the computer software that controlled it, installed it and handled the maintenance that kept it operating perfectly.

Also, I happen to know that, if you look on the back of each piece of equipment used in the cardiac cath lab where the procedure was done, you’ll find a small green and silver metallic label with my initials on it. I did the final quality control checkout on that equipment the week before I retired.

But, of course we all know that the old lady is alive solely due to the love and benevolence of God.

Yeah, right!!
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Old 08-14-2011, 12:38   #2
nmstew
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so very true. But you know what the religious crowd will say: "God made all those people, so he gets the credit." God needs alot of human help to accomplish things if you ask me.
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Old 08-14-2011, 13:19   #3
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thank god for all the people that helped her..... and that covers every one.... now where is the sunday lunch everyone always talks about
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Old 08-14-2011, 13:59   #4
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Originally Posted by Japle View Post

Also, I happen to know that, if you look on the back of each piece of equipment used in the cardiac cath lab where the procedure was done, you’ll find a small green and silver metallic label with my initials on it. I did the final quality control checkout on that equipment the week before I retired.

But, of course we all know that the old lady is alive solely due to the love and benevolence of God.

Yeah, right!!
Thanks Japle, you did your part, God bless you.
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Old 08-14-2011, 14:09   #5
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Understand your point. Not sure I agree. I've run into folks who want footnotes to just about every thing they read. Not impressed. If the pastor was giving a academic lecture, extremes in documentation would be expected. If you consider this a serious omission on the part of the pastor, you need to bring it to the attention of the pastor. If that fails to satisfactorily resolve the issue, take it to the personnel board.
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Old 08-14-2011, 14:20   #6
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Posted by Brucev:
If you consider this a serious omission on the part of the pastor, you need to bring it to the attention of the pastor. If that fails to satisfactorily resolve the issue, take it to the personnel board.
Seriously? That's your response? Take it to the personnel board?
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Old 08-14-2011, 14:22   #7
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I struggle with that issue also. It always sounds like a stretch when someone makes a statement such as the one your pastor made.

However, it is true that God gave those people the talent, energy, etc. that were required. Just because God doesn't do the work through an obvious miracle doesn't mean He deserves no credit.

Also, haven't you read 1 John? (other places also, but that is the most obvious one) It's one thing to disagree with your spiritual brother. It's something else to run him down in public, especially around folks who are already looking for ammo to use against our side.

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Old 08-14-2011, 14:29   #8
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Seriously? That's your response? Take it to the personnel board?
Over the years I've dealt with staff members and volunteers on a wide enough scale to appreciate how conflict can be resolved. I first said approach the pastor with whom you take issue. Then if no accord was reached, turn to the personnel board. Accountability is not optional for anyone. If this is simply a personality conflict, etc., then you need to take a look at yourself. Consider what Jesus said in Matt. 18:15-17. Hope things work out.
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Old 08-14-2011, 16:36   #9
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Bruce, buddy, you’ve missed the point completely.

While I do “take issue” with what the pastor said, I don’t have a personality conflict with him. I like the guy.

What I object to is the way he gave credit to his god, in the absence of any evidence at all that his god even exists, much less was involved in any way in the matter under discussion, while giving no credit at all to the very real people who contributed to saving the old lady’s life. It’s absurd.

In the case we’re talking about, the woman lived and God got the credit. If she’d died, would God have gotten the blame? Somehow, I don’t think so.
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Old 08-14-2011, 18:14   #10
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Posted by BradD:
It's one thing to disagree with your spiritual brother. It's something else to run him down in public, especially around folks who are already looking for ammo to use against our side.
My “spiritual brother”? “Our side”?

Let’s be clear about one thing; I’m an Atheist. The pastor is not my “spiritual brother”. When it comes to religion, we’re not on the same "side".

I play in the church band because I want to keep up my basic skills and keep my chops in shape. The church is a convenient place to do that. I’m not a member of the church. No one has ever asked me to become a member. That’s fine with me. It avoids an awkward conversation.

As to the “ammo” comment, there’s already plenty of it out there. My help isn’t needed.
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Old 08-14-2011, 18:28   #11
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If I cut my hand on a dirty knife and do nothing to clean the wound, I'm going to get an infection, and probably die. If on the other hand I take care of it, I'll most likely be OK in a couple of days. Putting a band aid on the cut takes nothing away from God. If He decides it's my time, nothing I can do will prevent it.

How do you know He didn't stop an infection, etc...?

I could tell you about miraculous healings, but you wouldn't believe it anyway. I'm not even sure why I'm taking the time to write this.
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Old 08-14-2011, 19:15   #12
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How do you know He didn't stop an infection, etc...?
Neosporin God...

I think I'll go with Neosporin.

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Old 08-14-2011, 20:13   #13
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Had four stints put in two years ago. I was awake and watched the whole thing. The cardiologist did it. He didn't glow or anything. However, it did cost more than 10% of my income.
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Old 08-14-2011, 21:08   #14
Japle
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Moscogee,

This might sound like a funny question, but did the doctor or nurse tell you to cough at any time during the procedure?
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Old 08-14-2011, 21:16   #15
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Bruce, buddy, you’ve missed the point completely.

While I do “take issue” with what the pastor said, I don’t have a personality conflict with him. I like the guy.

What I object to is the way he gave credit to his god, in the absence of any evidence at all that his god even exists, much less was involved in any way in the matter under discussion, while giving no credit at all to the very real people who contributed to saving the old lady’s life. It’s absurd.

In the case we’re talking about, the woman lived and God got the credit. If she’d died, would God have gotten the blame? Somehow, I don’t think so.
Yes, I misunderstood. I thought you considered this a actual problem. You have fun now. And next time you don't like something the pastor says, find the bone in your back and ask him about it.
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Old 08-14-2011, 21:24   #16
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I suspect that her determination and will power to see you perform again was instrumental in her recovery.
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Old 08-14-2011, 22:01   #17
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My “spiritual brother”? “Our side”?
Sorry dude. I don't keep up with the roster around here. I guess I'd never really thought about whether the people playing the music are Christians. At first, it seemed odd to me, but I'm sure the folks at the church are glad to have you around, especially if they know you're an atheist. I'm sure that would be the case at our church anyway.
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Old 08-14-2011, 23:13   #18
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So you feel bad you didn't receive credit in a sermon in a church? You do realize folks have done much more and had other PEOPLE (often who had nothing to do with it) get all the credit.
Do you have any idea what GOD is? Ok thats not a fair question. I have a "idea" what I think he/she/it is. Its very possible I am unable to understand that simple question.
To me think of the most powerful character you have ever seen on TV, movie,book. IMO God is as far above them as their "character" is above us.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:34   #19
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Moscogee,

This might sound like a funny question, but did the doctor or nurse tell you to cough at any time during the procedure?
Not that I remember? They kept telling me not to move or raise my head. I had a large catheter in my femoral artery. They didn't want me to do anything that would increase the blood pressure where the catheter was inserted. I had to lay flat on my back for several hours after the procedure so the incision in the artery wouldn't blow out.

Given all this, I think asking me to cough would have been counter productive. Why do you ask.
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Old 08-15-2011, 06:37   #20
Japle
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As I said earlier, what I object to is the way he gave credit to his god, in the absence of any evidence at all that his god even exists, much less was involved in any way in the matter under discussion, while giving no credit at all to the very real people who contributed to saving the old lady’s life. It’s absurd.

Did I expect the pastor to give me personal credit? Are you kidding me? How could he possibly know? The idea is, once again, absurd.
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Old 08-15-2011, 07:06   #21
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As I said earlier, what I object to is the way he gave credit to his god, in the absence of any evidence at all that his god even exists, much less was involved in any way in the matter under discussion, while giving no credit at all to the very real people who contributed to saving the old lady’s life. It’s absurd.

Did I expect the pastor to give me personal credit? Are you kidding me? How could he possibly know? The idea is, once again, absurd.
Your op read... "The credit should go, in no particular order, to: The cardiac surgeon... the medical researchers... the medical researchers... the engineers, programmers, technicians and service personnel... Also... if you look... you’ll find a... label with my initials on it. I did the final quality control checkout on that equipment the week before I retired." It is reasonable to infer that you objected to the pastor not giving credit to those you listed which included yourself.

You objection is curious. You "object to the way he gave credit... " to God. Yet you do understand that he spoke from his perspective as pastor of the church. Why then object. He is speaking in character with his beliefs. To expect anything less is illogical.
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Old 08-15-2011, 09:51   #22
Japle
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Posted by Brucev:
He is speaking in character with his beliefs. To expect anything less is illogical.
I didn't expect anything other than what I heard.
I do expect him to give credit to a supernatural being before giving any to real people.
I don't expect logic from a pastor who's speaking to his congregation.
I do expect him to reinforce his religion’s delusional view of the Universe.

And you should expect an Atheist to comment on an obvious religious-based absurdity when it pops up.
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Old 08-15-2011, 11:12   #23
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Japle, did you ever correct the pastor regarding his cardinal sin of giving God the Glory?

I don’t think you have the nads to tell him.

I think you’re just a typical atheist. I always wonder what ever happened to atheists that makes them so hateful and yet act like cowardly pansies.

All you folks ever want to do is ridicule and humiliate believers. You play in the church band for your own convenience and then turn around and badmouth the guy who lets you do that.

All you are is a damn hypocrite.
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Old 08-15-2011, 11:23   #24
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I think you’re just a typical atheist. I always wonder what ever happened to atheists that makes them so hateful and yet act like cowardly pansies.
So if atheists speak up such as in the cases of the Seven in Heaven Way street sign or objecting to the ground zero cross, the they're angry, hateful, bitter, ..., and if they don't speak up they're cowardly pansies?

So, which is it?
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Old 08-15-2011, 11:24   #25
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Posted by Japle I didn't expect anything other than what I heard.
I do expect him to give credit to a supernatural being before giving any to real people.
I don't expect logic from a pastor who's speaking to his congregation.
I do expect him to reinforce his religion’s delusional view of the Universe.[/
So what are you whining about. What a crybaby. If it bothers you so much don't play there anymore. Get over yourself already. It is beyond me why you play at a church anyway. That's like a Christian playing in the local Satanist band. Sometimes I swear people just astound me.
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