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Old 08-16-2011, 00:19   #1
rsplante
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.45 Super in G21

Wow, I've been away for a few years and there seems to be hundreds of categories. I hope this is the correct one for my post. (p.s., since I last posted here, I added a G27 to my collection. I also added a LaRue Tactical 5.56 OBR, a real tack driver. 0.25 moa at 100 yd. with my handloaded mk262 clones)

I was at the range last week, shooting my Glock 22, when the guy on the next range noticed me eyeing his pistol and offered to let me shoot it. Didn't seem to have noticably increased felt recoil over the 40 S&W. He said it was a Glock 21, with a KKM barrel (w/ a huge compensator, four side ports and two on top) and .45 Super. He claimed to have hung out with some Delta guys his last trip to Afghanistan. He said that that was what they were shooting, so he made one for himself. It did shoot nice.

My questions abound. With just having met the guy, I had no way of knowing 1) if he had really spent any time around Delta guys, 2) if that is truly what they were shooting, and 3) if that gun was really loaded with .45 Super. He claimed that shooting .45 ACP, the compensator was mostly ineffective, but that with .45 Super, it seemed to largely eliminate muzzle flip. Everyone I have spoken to since has had their doubts(). I even wrote to KKM and their reponse was a predictable, "our barrels are the finest blah blah blah, and are capable of shooting 45 Super, but a Glock would not be our first pick..." What does everyone here think? Is there a possibility that the guy was completely truthful? Partially truthful? I was all set to make one of these myself until I encountered all the skepticism. Could it work?
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Old 08-16-2011, 12:10   #2
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Who knows if he was truthful, I usually don't believe the Delta stories though...

did your post count get reset to 1? Or were you just a lurker back in the old days?
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Old 08-16-2011, 13:17   #3
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It's NOT that simple to do (safely). Personally, I wouldn't make this conversion on anything except a very well broken-in Gen3 Model 21 with, at least, a stainless steel guide rod and 22# recoil spring installed.

I'd strongly suggest that nobody should attempt to use 45 Super in a Glock with a plastic guide rod assembly. (The standard Gen3 Glock rod.) I'm, also, suspicious about several things you've said; e.g.: There wasn't much recoil; you didn't really notice the difference between what you were shooting and typical 40 S&W caliber recoil.

I can tell you that when I've fired my own G-21's with 45 Super cartridges the noise and percussion were highly noticeable. (The percussion actually shook the dust off the overhead rafters!) My G-21's are fitted with extended, muzzle-ported barrels; and, when 45 Super is used, you're going to definitely realize that a 45 ACP it ain't.

The other thing I'm suspicious of is whether or not American soldiers are running around in the field carrying G-21's with humongous compensators attached to their barrels? Such a pistol isn't typical for any military unit I've ever heard of. (Neither is the specialty pistol ammunition.)

Can you do this with a Gen3 G-21? Yes, you can; BUT, the rest of the pistol is going to have to be safety upgraded in order to handle the additional pressure and percussion. Did the fellow you spoke to serve on foreign soil with Delta personnel who were so equipped? 'Hang around' is not the same thing as, 'serve'. Neither has anything been said about Delta personnel actually carrying these things in combat.

This story, while possible, seems highly unlikely to me. If you want to do this to your Gen3 G-21. There are a number of excellent threads on Glock Talk about how to make the conversation. GT member, 'Turbonatr' (Who, coincidentally, lives near me.) has had a lot to say on this subject.

I've never fired a pistol fitted with a Lone Wolf compensator; still I think there should have been a lot more noise and a lot more muzzle blast than you seem to indicate. Too bad you didn't pick up one of the ejected cartridge cases and read the headstamp - That would have told you a lot.

http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197490

Last edited by Arc Angel; 08-16-2011 at 13:31..
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Old 08-16-2011, 14:11   #4
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The thread that Arc Angel provided is very informative. My G21sf works great with 45 Super. I put in a 24 lb recoil spring Wolf guide rod and recoil buffer and it works great. However I only shoot abut 300 rounds a year through it maximum.

I prefer my converted S&W 4506 for the 45 Super. It's heavier and seems to handle the hotter loads better.

I think it is doubtful that any branch of the military has used the 45 Super, I wish they did as it would add to the popularity of this great cartridge!

If this was a 45 Super you shot you would know it!!! It is noticeably louder and more powerful than a 45+P!
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Last edited by Trigger Finger; 08-16-2011 at 14:12..
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Old 08-16-2011, 22:21   #5
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Yeah, you really would notice the difference between 45 auto +P and 45 Super... unless the loads were worked up using the 45 Super data on the Hodgdon website (which looks like regular 45 auto data to me).
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Old 08-17-2011, 02:59   #6
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I emailed KKM about a year ago because I wanted a fully supported barrel to shoot 45 Super through my G21, and they said it could be done, but they advised against it because the 45 barrel is a little thinner than say a 10mm barrel. How long it would last shooting 45 Super is anyones guess. (maybe I should stick to 40 Super instead). I also emailed Buffalore Bore about the pressures they load their Super up to, and they said their loads are at 23,000psi. Still Buffalore Bore 45 Super is more powerful than say their 45 +P.
I am considering getting a USP to shoot 45 Super since it has the dual recoil spring assembly to withstand the 45 Super pressure.
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Old 08-17-2011, 15:30   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJoy View Post
I emailed KKM about a year ago because I wanted a fully supported barrel to shoot 45 Super through my G21, and they said it could be done, but they advised against it because the 45 barrel is a little thinner than say a 10mm barrel. How long it would last shooting 45 Super is anyones guess. (maybe I should stick to 40 Super instead). I also emailed Buffalore Bore about the pressures they load their Super up to, and they said their loads are at 23,000psi. Still Buffalore Bore 45 Super is more powerful than say their 45 +P.
I am considering getting a USP to shoot 45 Super since it has the dual recoil spring assembly to withstand the 45 Super pressure.

I don't think that a fully supported barrel is critical for the 45 Super due to the thicker brass used in the 45 Super casing! The fact that the 45 barrel is thinner than a 10mm barrel is meaningless because a 10mm is loaded at around 33,000 to 37,000 psi where a 45 Super is loaded to 28,000 psi maximum. If the 10mm barrel can handle 37,000 psi then the very slightly thinner 45 barrel should be able to handle 28,000 psi and in the case of Buffalo Bore 23,000. That sounds a little low to me by the way. I was always under the impression that a 45+P was about 22,000 to 23,000 psi. Having shot many Buffalo Bore 45acp, 45+P and 45 Super I am almost certain that they load the super to at least 27,000 psi.

The most important thing is springs and recoil buffer. How much do you really intend to shoot the 45 Super anyway? The beauty of this installation is that the gun will continue to be able to shoot 45 ACP just as it used to!!! When you need the extra power you load it with 45 Super!!!! Just like a 357 Magnum revolver.

The USP is nice if you need another expensive gun. BTW that never stopped me from buying a gun.
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Last edited by Trigger Finger; 08-17-2011 at 15:37..
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Old 08-18-2011, 00:45   #8
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Good info. How much more recoil did you feel shooting Buffalo Bore 45 Super than their 45+P? And since your shooting 45 Super out of your Glock, what recoil buffer are you using? 300 rounds a year sounds like enough for me too. If I can use the Glock I may forgo the USP.
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Old 08-18-2011, 01:30   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoJoy View Post
Good info. How much more recoil did you feel shooting Buffalo Bore 45 Super than their 45+P? And since your shooting 45 Super out of your Glock, what recoil buffer are you using? 300 rounds a year sounds like enough for me too. If I can use the Glock I may forgo the USP.

The Glock is a light pistol so the recoil with a 45 Super is more noticeable!
I would guess that the recoil, noise and flash is about 20% more than a 45 +P. You are gaining about 150-200 fps over a 45+P.

The recoil buffer I use is from "Buffer Technologies". I have also heard that "Wilson" makes good buffers. You can find both of these on Midway USA. I change my buffer about every 300 rounds.

Of course I also put in a 24 lb recoil spring and a metal spring guide rod, from "Wolf Gun springs". I think Midway also have these for a few dollars less!

I buy my ammo from this location. It's the best price on the web for 45 Super and it is Buffalo Bore, just at a better price.

http://www.targetsportsusa.com/c-189-45-super-ammo.aspx

Good luck and let me know how it turns out. PM me.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:16   #10
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I have a lot of experience with the 45Super in a G21, Springfield Armory 1911, and S&W 4506; and about 3 years ago I spoke with G. Hindman of ACE Firearms in TX who holds the rights to the 45super name.
With the G21 and standard barrel with 24lb SS recoil guide spring I would get significant "smilies" due to the unsupported barrel, and do not recommend it. I have two Lone wolf barrels which are better supported and do not produce smilies. Tried with/without a buffer and saw no difference. Also use the latest new G21 mags. I bent the locking block pin and had to replace it, so check yours often if you try the 45Super in the G21. In conclusion; I could not get the G21 100% reliable, as I would get occasional "nose dives" of rounds into mag problem using Buffalo Bore 230s, and have abandoned any further G21 efforts. What is needed with the G21 is a ported or comped barrel, as G. Hindman said this was the only way they could make it work right (I think they used a cut away slide and ported barrel), by slowing down the slide velocity. He recommended ONLY all steel 5" guns like the 1911 or 4506 properly modified. He gave me spring specs for the 4506 and with new Wolf recoil and fp springs, I now have it set up for the 45Super, and it's been 100%. I have also tried the SA1911 with a 28lb recoil spring and hd firing pin spring, and although it was reliable, I found the recoil to be too severe. The 4506 is much better.

Bottom line: I use my S&W 4506 for 45Super. I would try the G21 with a compensated barrel but think it would be too bulky for carry if it proved to be 100%. The 1911 works but the recoil is severe and racking the slide with a 28lb spring is a workout!
Hope this helps all those out there wanting to try the 45Super.
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Old 08-18-2011, 09:22   #11
Arc Angel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
I don't think that a fully supported barrel is critical for the 45 Super due to the thicker brass used in the 45 Super casing! The fact that the 45 barrel is thinner than a 10mm barrel is meaningless because a 10mm is loaded at around 33,000 to 37,000 psi where a 45 Super is loaded to 28,000 psi maximum. If the 10mm barrel can handle 37,000 psi then the very slightly thinner 45 barrel should be able to handle 28,000 psi and in the case of Buffalo Bore 23,000. That sounds a little low to me by the way. I was always under the impression that a 45+P was about 22,000 to 23,000 psi. Having shot many Buffalo Bore 45acp, 45+P and 45 Super I am almost certain that they load the super to at least 27,000 psi.

The most important thing is springs and recoil buffer. How much do you really intend to shoot the 45 Super anyway? The beauty of this installation is that the gun will continue to be able to shoot 45 ACP just as it used to!!! When you need the extra power you load it with 45 Super!!!! Just like a 357 Magnum revolver.

The USP is nice if you need another expensive gun. BTW that never stopped me from buying a gun.
That's a good post! The reason, 'Why' I've kept repeating, 'third generation', 'third generation', etc. is exactly because of the excessive chamber rebate on all Glock 45 ACP pistols up to the 3rd generation models.

Even with the heavier web on 45 Super brass, I still don't like to see so much brass sticking out the bottom of the chamber. Whenever I've compared my Gen3 G-21's to earlier models (including early Gen3's) I've been surprised at the large amount of rebate I've seen on these early Glock 45's.

ADDED: I've tried those plastic frame buffers in my Glocks. As far as I'm concerned they're a complete waste of money. They chew up real fast and can jam the gun.

Iceman cHuck made another good post! In fact I do use an extended and muzzle-ported Bar-Sto Precision barrel in both of my 45 Super G-21's. I've seldom loaded these cartridges, 'all the way up' and haven't had a problem with the lighter 22# recoil springs.

For frequent or, 'heavy' use I do think that a 24# spring is necessary; and a steel guide rod is a, 'must'.

http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9...ocopyofg21.jpg

Last edited by Arc Angel; 08-18-2011 at 09:34..
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Old 08-18-2011, 13:54   #12
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"In conclusion; I could not get the G21 100% reliable, as I would get occasional "nose dives" of rounds into mag problem using Buffalo Bore 230s, and have abandoned any further G21 efforts."

Iceman cHuck, good post. I have not had had any of the problems you bring up. I should have included this earlier but I did put in a more powerful magazine spring from Wolf. I think it increases the spring power by 5 or 10% and never had a problem. In fact it feeds the Buffalo Bore 230 gr HP and the 255 gr LSWC. I have considered getting the Lone Wolf 5 inch ported barrel to reduce recoil.

With all due respect Hindman wants everyone to go through him or Ace or follow his exact specifications if you want a 45 Super handgun. And he is probably correct if you want to shoot allot of 45 Super rounds every year but I am just a light to medium user of this cartridge and have been using it for several years now with only positive results. Including using a large batch of Triton 45 Super ammo I obtained years ago and am still chipping away at.

I do prefer shooting 45 Super out of my S&W 4506 however and that's what I shoot the majority of the time!

I put buffers in all of my 45 Super handguns and don't really notice any difference but I don't think it could hurt as long as you inspect and replace when needed. I think it could only help, maybe not much but even if it works only slightly it would be beneficial!!

Nice looking Glock Arc Angel. How much of a reduction in recoil or flip do you get with that barrel?
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Old 08-18-2011, 16:07   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigger Finger View Post
...... Nice looking Glock Arc Angel. How much of a reduction in recoil or flip do you get with that barrel?
Thank you! It and it's, 'twin brother' are well worth owning. I enjoy using them very much. A fast spring change on my Wolff Gunsprings' rod; and I'm able to switch back and forth between 45 ACP, and 45 Super. (A cartridge I have profound respect for! Short of something humongous from Magnum Research, 45 Super is as large as I'm willing to go in a semiautomatic design.)

Well, I don't know how to actually measure muzzle flip; but, on slow fire, the reduction is noticeable. (5 to 8%, maybe?) Those two muzzle crosscuts really come into their own during rapid fire, though, when I find front sight recovery to be, about, twice as fast and much more controllable. (8 to 12%, maybe higher?)

What I never cease to be amazed at is how much more, 'wallop' I get from that silly little extra 1/2 inch in barrel length. Don't know how to measure that either; but, people watching me plink have often made comments like, 'That 45 really seems to be hitting hard'; and, you know, it seems that way to me, too!
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Old 08-18-2011, 19:56   #14
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My 45 Super is on a G21sf with a 6" 4-port LW barrel and a 22# spring. Works fine. Never a smiley, never a problem. It shoots all the 200, 230, 255 and 265 grain slugs I've loaded up for it... and without changing the spring its still reliable with 45 auto ammo.

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Old 08-19-2011, 22:50   #15
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Apparently it got reset. I actually had a pretty high post count as I recall. I see from your name that you are a fire medic. I volunteered as a Paramedic with my first fire dept. 1984-1995. Now I just do fire. Pasadena Fire Dept, Pasadena Texas. It's the largest single municipality vol. fire dept in the country. We have 9 stations and over 200 members.
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Old 08-19-2011, 22:58   #16
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If I see the guy again, I'll make sure I get a shell casing. As for our military being equiped with these, someone on another site claimed that Delta operators get a stipend to pretty much get what they want to carry; however, he said that he is not aware of anyone ever using it to have one of these made (clearly implying that he was in the know. whatever) This was at an outdoor range and I was not under any cover, so it is possible that I missed the difference in sound. I've shot a friend's .44 magnum, and mainly noticed the recoil difference.
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Old 08-19-2011, 23:03   #17
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From what I have gathered so far, it appears that everyone is reluctant to discuss .45 Super specifics due to the copyrighted name. They usually hem and haw along the lines of, the name .45 Super is owned by Ace Custom 45s Inc., but...
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Old 08-19-2011, 23:22   #18
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It sounds like people are talking about using a stock Glock barrel. The one I fired had a KKM Precision barrel witha 4 port compensator:
[URL]http://www.kkmprecision.com/custom_pistol_barrels/home.php?cat=17[/URL]

Last edited by rsplante; 08-19-2011 at 23:22..
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Old 08-19-2011, 23:29   #19
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The one I tried with the KKM barrel (fully supported) had the 4 port compensator, which basically looked like a ~1" extension to the G21 slide. i.e. blocky like the glock slide. It was definately long for a carry gun, but from what I can recall, it seemed to be the same relative size as a competition Glock.
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Old 08-19-2011, 23:37   #20
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Thanks, I may try it with the KKM barrel. It has a huge compensator on it, so I would think it will have an even lighter recoil than yours.
[URL]http://www.kkmprecision.com/custom_pistol_barrels/product.php?productid=38&cat=17&page=1[/URL]

Last edited by rsplante; 08-19-2011 at 23:40..
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