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Old 08-19-2011, 10:18   #1
ArtificialGrape
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Need Absolved of Abortion? Hustle to Madrid.

Pope Benedict XVI has conferred upon all the priests administering confession during the World Youth Day celebration in Madrid to absolve confessors of abortion and lift the automatic excommunication.

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Old 08-21-2011, 16:31   #2
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Why is this a story? Repentance and confession leading to salvation is quite common in the Bible.
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Old 08-21-2011, 19:09   #3
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You cannot have your sins absolved by anyone, they have to be forgiven by the King of Kings Himself, Jesus Christ.
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Old 08-21-2011, 19:46   #4
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Why is this a story? Repentance and confession leading to salvation is quite common in the Bible.
It seems that only a limited number of priests are normally authorized to absolve abortion within the Roman Catholic Church. However, for people that have been involved in abortion, and that happen to be in Madrid during this particular week, then they can be absolved by any of the priests administering confession for World Youth Day.

It would appear that people that are not in Madrid for the week, and don't have access to one of the otherwise authorized priests are out of luck.

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Old 08-21-2011, 20:33   #5
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Well I'm sure I will upset the "religious" Catholics but last I checked, I did not need a human priest to absolve me of anything. Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven.

Besides, have you seen the price of airfare to Madrid lately + luggage fees.

This is a perfect example of religion vs. Christianity.
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Old 08-22-2011, 15:08   #6
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Sometimes I wish Atheists would mind their own business and leave us believers alone.
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:00   #7
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Sometimes I wish Atheists would mind their own business and leave us believers alone.
Like when Christians:
  • Tell consenting adults who to marry
  • Tell women what to do with their bodies
  • Tell researchers what can be done with a clump of cells
  • Tell people in AIDS ravaged Africa that condoms are evil
  • Are activists pushing to teach Christian Creation in science classes
Is that the example of leaving alone that atheists should strive to follow?

I would be glad to leave alone if religion was harmless, and I was left alone, but I don't see that happening.
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:04   #8
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Like when Christians:
  • Tell consenting adults who to marry
  • Tell women what to do with their bodies
  • Tell researchers what can be done with a clump of cells
  • Tell people in AIDS ravaged Africa that condoms are evil
  • Are activists pushing to teach Christian Creation in science classes
Is that the example of leaving alone that atheists should strive to follow?

I would be glad to leave alone if religion was harmless, and I was left alone, but I don't see that happening.
No, I was just speaking in terms of posting matters of the "other side" on internet threads. Let's not get off topic here AG.
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:18   #9
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No, I was just speaking in terms of posting matters of the "other side" on internet threads. Let's not get off topic here AG.
That wasn't clear from your previous message, but fair enough.

I guess you didn't see the thread as a public service announcement for those that might be in need of absolution.

Does it also bother you when snowbird and DonGlock initiate threads regarding matters involving the "other side", or does it all depend on who the "other side" is?
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:29   #10
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That wasn't clear from your previous message, but fair enough.

I guess you didn't see the thread as a public service announcement for those that might be in need of absolution.

Does it also bother you when snowbird and DonGlock initiate threads regarding matters involving the "other side", or does it all depend on who the "other side" is?
A little. Probably why I don't look at them much anymore. And no, it really doesn't depend on who the "other side" is.

You could do a search and find I have yet to post a thread about atheists doing this or that. Not my thing.
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Old 08-23-2011, 07:59   #11
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Well I'm sure I will upset the "religious" Catholics but last I checked, I did not need a human priest to absolve me of anything. Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven.
You need to check again. Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic.
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Old 08-23-2011, 10:39   #12
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You need to check again. Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic.
Well I am definitely not a theologian but didn't they say the above about Jesus? I'll be doing my quiet time later so go ahead and point me to the scriptures I need to read to get my beliefs in line.

So upon Christ's death, the curtain in the temple was torn apart for what reason? Accident?
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:43   #13
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Well I am definitely not a theologian but didn't they say the above about Jesus?
Not quite, but similar. Does that mean that everyone's addled theories are not unscriptural?

Quote:
I'll be doing my quiet time later so go ahead and point me to the scriptures I need to read to get my beliefs in line.
Well, Christ indeed is the High Priest who forgives sins. But since He promised to ratify the decisions made by the Apostles (and Peter in particular), you need to go through the channels that He instituted. Yes, He can make exceptions, but to presume that you are one of the exceptions is, well, unsafe. As the Catholic Catechism says: "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (CCC no. 1257). This applies to other sacraments as well.

Start with these:

Jn 20:22-23 - breathed on them, "receive Holy Sp." (recall Gn 2:7)
whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained

2 Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation

James 5:13-15 - prayer of presbyters forgives sin

Mt 18:18-whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven


You also said that "Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven."
This seems to imply that you buy into the "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" idea. If so, then there are dozens if not hundreds of places you need to read.



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So upon Christ's death, the curtain in the temple was torn apart for what reason? Accident?
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:59   #14
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Not quite, but similar. Does that mean that everyone's addled theories are not unscriptural?

I would guess that if the theory is not based on Biblical scripture than that would be unscriptural which seems logical to me.


Well, Christ indeed is the High Priest who forgives sins. But since He promised to ratify the decisions made by the Apostles (and Peter in particular), you need to go through the channels that He instituted. Yes, He can make exceptions, but to presume that you are one of the exceptions is, well, unsafe. As the Catholic Catechism says: "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (CCC no. 1257). This applies to other sacraments as well.

See I was a Catholic as a child (thanks mom) but not now so I don't go by Catholic Catechism. So baptism is required for salvation? What about the thief on the cross?

Start with these:

Jn 20:22-23 - breathed on them, "receive Holy Sp." (recall Gn 2:7)
whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained

2 Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation

James 5:13-15 - prayer of presbyters forgives sin

Mt 18:18-whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven

I'll look at these but my guess is that we interpret these verses differently. I am gonna guess we can both list some scholars that agree with us.


You also said that "Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven."
This seems to imply that you buy into the "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" idea. If so, then there are dozens if not hundreds of places you need to read.

OOPS, I AM one of those folks
. Are the dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible or somewhere else? Hence my earlier statement of this thread being a good example of religion vs. Christianity. I think I am in the same camp as Billy Graham which seems like a pretty good camp to be in.

Did you comment on the ripped curtain? If so, I missed it. Sorry.
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Old 08-23-2011, 13:23   #15
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I would guess that if the theory is not based on Biblical scripture than that would be unscriptural which seems logical to me.
OK, that brings us back around to my earlier post, to wit:
"Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic."

Quote:
See I was a Catholic as a child (thanks mom) but not now so I don't go by Catholic Catechism. So baptism is required for salvation? What about the thief on the cross?
Did you bother to read the quote I gave earlier? I explained that there are exceptions.

Quote:
I'll look at these but my guess is that we interpret these verses differently. I am gonna guess we can both list some scholars that agree with us.
Very true. And THAT, my friend, is one huge reason that Christ left us with a teaching office. Otherwise, there'd be tens of thousands of different contradictory opinions, as we see in protestantism today.

He didn't want that. He wanted us UNITED in TRUTH:

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

See also:
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God &Father
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one

Quote:
OOPS, I AM one of those folks. Are the dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible or somewhere else? Hence my earlier statement of this thread being a good example of religion vs. Christianity. I think I am in the same camp as Billy Graham which seems like a pretty good camp to be in.
Not really, since this isn't the camp that the Apostles were in.

Yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible that will contradict the idea of OSAS (which was a novel idea made up in the 16th century).


Quote:
Did you comment on the ripped curtain? If so, I missed it. Sorry.
Nope. Did you provide YOUR interpretation? How much are you reading your beliefs into this event? This is known as eisegesis.
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Old 08-23-2011, 14:38   #16
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
OK, that brings us back around to my earlier post, to wit:
"Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic."


Did you bother to read the quote I gave earlier? I explained that there are exceptions.


Very true. And THAT, my friend, is one huge reason that Christ left us with a teaching office. Otherwise, there'd be tens of thousands of different contradictory opinions, as we see in protestantism today.

He didn't want that. He wanted us UNITED in TRUTH:

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

See also:
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God &Father
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one


Not really, since this isn't the camp that the Apostles were in.

Yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible that will contradict the idea of OSAS (which was a novel idea made up in the 16th century).



Nope. Did you provide YOUR interpretation? How much are you reading your beliefs into this event? This is known as eisegesis.
Bert, do you believe in 'once baptized as an infant, always saved'?

There is far less disagreement among Protestants on the essentials (as stated in the creeds) than imagined. Most of the differences are on secondary issues.
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Old 08-23-2011, 15:53   #17
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
OK, that brings us back around to my earlier post, to wit:
"Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic."

Yes you said that already. Actually my remarks are based on scripture just not the way you (some Catholics) interpret.


Did you bother to read the quote I gave earlier? I explained that there are exceptions.

Yep I did read it. Can Jesus only make those exceptions or can human priests too? Are those exceptions listed in the Bible? Sorry, it's rhetorical.
Who is being unscriptural now?



Very true. And THAT, my friend, is one huge reason that Christ left us with a teaching office. Otherwise, there'd be tens of thousands of different contradictory opinions, as we see in protestantism today.

He didn't want that. He wanted us UNITED in TRUTH:

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Well I never said there shouldn't be a church with a leader. What I did say is that Jesus is the High Priest and his death presented a way for us to have a personal relationship with God free of a human priest who offers forgiveness.
Hence, the temple curtain being torn in two that divided the temple area from the area restricted to the priest.

We should be united. The problem lies not in infighting between members of a church (as some of the scripture relates to) but with major doctrinal differences.


Not really, since this isn't the camp that the Apostles were in.

Uh oh. Didn't the Pope meet with Graham several times? Did the Pope ever tell Billy, "hey you're doing it wrong"? Perhaps the church can go and tell all those people who answered the alter call that hey you aren't saved if you haven't been baptized or continually ask for forgiveness of sins from a human priest.



Yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible that will contradict the idea of OSAS (which was a novel idea made up in the 16th century).

So a Catholic scholar is correct but a non Catholic biblical scholar is incorrect. To think of all those Baptist and Methodist theologians have it wrong. It's a wonder you even associate with us heathens.



Nope. Did you provide YOUR interpretation? How much are you reading your beliefs into this event? This is known as eisegesis.
Dang, what is it with this RI section? So many folks are so quick to criticize (yeah I do my fair share) but refuse to answer a question I ask about their beliefs. I'm thinking I just need to stick with the CCW, Cop, and Knife section. Someone warned me not to come here, but did listen? No.

At least you'll don't want to exterminate the pit bull here....................yet.


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Old 08-23-2011, 15:56   #18
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Bert, do you believe in 'once baptized as an infant, always saved'?
Of course not. Why do you ask?

Quote:
There is far less disagreement among Protestants on the essentials (as stated in the creeds) than imagined. Most of the differences are on secondary issues.
Perhaps.
But one essential is unity.

Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God &Father
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
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Old 08-23-2011, 16:46   #19
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Yes you said that already.
Right. But you avoided responding to what I actually said.

Quote:
Actually my remarks are based on scripture just not the way you (some Catholics) interpret.
No, your remarks are based on YOUR interpretaion, which is in conflict with the way the Church has interpreted them from the very beginning.

You see, one of the major things that drew me to the Catholic Church was the actual historic continuity of belief and practice since the very founding of Christianity.

Quote:
Yep I did read it. Can Jesus only make those exceptions or can human priests too? Are those exceptions listed in the Bible? Sorry, it's rhetorical.
Jesus set up those rules; only He can make exceptions to them. He's the judge.

No, those exceptions are NOT listed in the Bible; that's the point. That's why we can not rely on those exceptions.


Quote:
Who is being unscriptural now?
That's quite simple: you are.

Quote:
Well I never said there shouldn't be a church with a leader. What I did say is that Jesus is the High Priest and his death presented a way for us to have a personal relationship with God free of a human priest who offers forgiveness.
You were doing OK until that last part.

I'll not that you did NOT address the scripture passages I provided above which contradict your mere human "opinion."

Quote:
Hence, the temple curtain being torn in two that divided the temple area from the area restricted to the priest.
It may very well mean something like that. We don't really know. For instance, the text doesn't specify WHICH curtain was torn (there were two).

Quote:
We should be united. The problem lies not in infighting between members of a church (as some of the scripture relates to) but with major doctrinal differences.
Please elucidate.

Quote:
Uh oh. Didn't the Pope meet with Graham several times? Did the Pope ever tell Billy, "hey you're doing it wrong"?
And, what pray tell do you think THAT means?

Since the Pope met with Graham, didn't Graham also meet with the Pope?
Did Billy ever tell the Pope, "hey you're doing it wrong"?

Maybe the Pope is just more respectful than Billy.

Quote:
Perhaps the church can go and tell all those people who answered the alter call that hey you aren't saved if you haven't been baptized or continually ask for forgiveness of sins from a human priest.
The Church's teachings are already there for all to see.

Including, but not limited to, the NT (which the Church authored, through the Holy Spirit, protected, through the same Holy Spirit, and ratified, again through the same Holy Spirit).

Quote:
So a Catholic scholar is correct but a non Catholic biblical scholar is incorrect.
Actually, it was a Catholic scholar & rogue priest that invented that idea (Luther). Many heresies were invented by Catholic scholars, going back to Arius.

No, one way to determine the proper interpretations of scripture is to see how the early Church understood these teachings. If you want to know what John and Peter taught, you could go to the students of John and Peter, for instance. The very men who were discipled and ordained by these Apostles (and who died as martyrs for the name of Jesus). If they were silent on these matters, go to THEIR disciples.


Quote:
Dang, what is it with this RI section? So many folks are so quick to criticize (yeah I do my fair share) but refuse to answer a question I ask about their beliefs. I'm thinking I just need to stick with the CCW, Cop, and Knife section. Someone warned me not to come here, but did listen? No.
If your beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny, then perhaps you should have heeded their advice.
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Old 08-23-2011, 18:12   #20
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No, your remarks are based on YOUR interpretaion, which is in conflict with the way the Church has interpreted them from the very beginning.

That is not entirely true. There are many biblical scholars that believed once saved always saved. I mean we could post scripture here till we get carpal tunnel. The difference is there are different interpretations and I'm not just some moron who comes up with a belief.


You see, one of the major things that drew me to the Catholic Church was the actual historic continuity of belief and practice since the very founding of Christianity.

It sounds like you became Catholic because of the ritualistic repetitions that are found in that religion. As I'll state a third time, there is a huge difference between being religious and being a Christian.


Jesus set up those rules; only He can make exceptions to them. He's the judge.

Well God set up the rules and Jesus is the judge but as you state below, the exemptions aren't listed in scripture so what basis do you use to say that is an exception?

No, those exceptions are NOT listed in the Bible; that's the point. That's why we can not rely on those exceptions.

You can't rely on them but you can state them which is kind of a de facto - relying on them.



That's quite simple: you are.


You were doing OK until that last part.




It may very well mean something like that. We don't really know. For instance, the text doesn't specify WHICH curtain was torn (there were two).

Of course it may mean something like that. Just read that and other passages of the Bible to find that meaning.

Ex. take the basic verse use for salvation John 3:16. Does it say at the end-
"shall not perish but have everlasting life"....for awhile but then you need a human priest to forgive you again cuz you lost your salvation by sinning again?


Please elucidate.

I don't even know what that word means.





Maybe the Pope is just more respectful than Billy.

Yeah nothing like covering up decades of sodomy by these priest.


The Church's teachings are already there for all to see.

No, one way to determine the proper interpretations of scripture is to see how the early Church understood these teachings. If you want to know what John and Peter taught, you could go to the students of John and Peter, for instance. The very men who were discipled and ordained by these Apostles (and who died as martyrs for the name of Jesus). If they were silent on these matters, go to THEIR disciples.

Well kinda. The disciples themselves thought Jesus was a worldly king for the longest time. Peter denied Christ. Peter was also pretty dogmatic on circumcision too. Some of the early churches also thought they were in the end times too. I'm gonna say there are better ways to determine the interpretation of scripture than going by what a disciple taught or worse what the disciple of the disciple taught.

If your beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny, then perhaps you should have heeded their advice.
My beliefs stand up to the Bible and Christian scholars who interpreted the Bible so I'm not too worried. I wonder if the priests who forgive sins and require baptism for salvation ever consider Revelations where the warning is given to those who would add or take away from the Scripture.

Well you are right on the last sentence. I got to get out of here and not return. Between the atheist criticizing everyone and you folks with you religious dogma, it is a no win situation.

Christ died for ALL my sins and I sure don't need a Catholic priest to baptize me or forgive me in a confessional (or maybe other things in a confessional) to obtain salvation.


See, I knew I would make some Catholics mad. See you on the other side...........................maybe.

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Old 08-23-2011, 20:54   #21
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Of course not. Why do you ask?
Just curious about your view of salvation.

Quote:
Perhaps.
But one essential is unity.

Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God &Father
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
Unity begins at the foot of the cross. The unity God wants is unity on the essentials of the faith, whatever Christian denomination one is a member of. There are people in the Catholic Church who nevertheless believe in abortion (see the embarassing Joe Biden in China), gay rights, etc. Just because they are members of the Catholic Church isn't the kind of unity God is interested in.
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Old 08-24-2011, 16:29   #22
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My beliefs stand up to the Bible and Christian scholars who interpreted the Bible so I'm not too worried. I wonder if the priests who forgive sins and require baptism for salvation ever consider Revelations where the warning is given to those who would add or take away from the Scripture.

Well you are right on the last sentence. I got to get out of here and not return. Between the atheist criticizing everyone and you folks with you religious dogma, it is a no win situation.

Christ died for ALL my sins and I sure don't need a Catholic priest to baptize me or forgive me in a confessional (or maybe other things in a confessional) to obtain salvation.


See, I knew I would make some Catholics mad. See you on the other side...........................maybe.
This one could be a new record for the RI thread.
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:14   #23
Schabesbert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharkey View Post
That is not entirely true.
Yes, it is true, your non-backed-up assertions notwithstanding. This belief did not exist for many centuries after Christ. It was invented by men. It is therefore a tradition of man which makes null the Word of God.

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There are many biblical scholars that believed once saved always saved. I mean we could post scripture here till we get carpal tunnel. The difference is there are different interpretations and I'm not just some moron who comes up with a belief.
No, there were morons who invented this belief long before you, but even much longer AFTER the Apostles.


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It sounds like you became Catholic because of the ritualistic repetitions that are found in that religion.
It sounds like you believe you know what I'm thinking, and what my motivations are. Aside from being totally incorrect, it's wrong to do from a moral, Christian perspective.

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As I'll state a third time, there is a huge difference between being religious and being a Christian.
Is there? Well, I suppose you could say such a thing, since you're making up your own definition of what it means to be "religious."

but I think I know where you're coming from. You want to form a relationship with Jesus on your own terms, objecting to the way He wants to form a relationship.


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Well God set up the rules and Jesus is the judge but as you state below, the exemptions aren't listed in scripture so what basis do you use to say that is an exception?
To say WHAT is an exception?

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You can't rely on them but you can state them which is kind of a de facto - relying on them.
No. Let me spell it out for you:
Jesus & the Apostles tell us the plan for salvation.

We also know that some people who, through no fault of their own, are not aware of the Gospel, can still be saved.

We also see that, in at least ONE very highly specialized unique instance (the thief on the cross), Jesus made an allowance. Now, this man died as a witness (martyr) to Jesus, and was unable to do things such as being baptized. The Church has ALWAYS recognized such things as exceptions (the so-called "baptism of blood").

We don't know what the exceptions are, and therefore it is VERY dangerous and presumptuous to bet your soul on them.

Quote:
Of course it may mean something like that. Just read that and other passages of the Bible to find that meaning.

Ex. take the basic verse use for salvation John 3:16. Does it say at the end-
"shall not perish but have everlasting life"....
Very good example. An example for why you need to read the Bible as it was meant to be read: taught by the Church, or you will get some very important things wrong (see Acts 28:6 and following, and 2Peter 3:16 for example).

The phrase is:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Sounds good for your argument, until you delve into the meanings of the original Greek text. The word for "believes" in this text is "pisteuo" which means much more than simply acknowledging Jesus. It also implies to be faithful to and to be obedient to.

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for awhile but then you need a human priest to forgive you again cuz you lost your salvation by sinning again?
Well, yeah. Since that's what the Bible says, and that's what Jesus, the Apostles and the Church have always taught.

Ro 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off.

1Co 10:12 Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.

Jas 2:17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.

etc. etc. etc.

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Please elucidate.
I don't even know what that word means.
That's kind of scary. You should really look it up, rather than proclaiming such a thing. I think it's a 5th grade vocabulary word.


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No, one way to determine the proper interpretations of scripture is to see how the early Church understood these teachings. If you want to know what John and Peter taught, you could go to the students of John and Peter, for instance. The very men who were discipled and ordained by these Apostles (and who died as martyrs for the name of Jesus). If they were silent on these matters, go to THEIR disciples.
Well kinda. The disciples themselves thought Jesus was a worldly king for the longest time. Peter denied Christ. Peter was also pretty dogmatic on circumcision too.
How does this remotely address my comment above?

Peter was dogmatic on circumcision, but why?

Because GOD WANTED IT THAT WAY:
Ac 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

Peter, the first Pope, was speaking for God.

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Some of the early churches also thought they were in the end times too. I'm gonna say there are better ways to determine the interpretation of scripture than going by what a disciple taught or worse what the disciple of the disciple taught.
So, your contention is that all the Apostles and their disciples were teaching wrong doctrine?

In that case, you'd be denying most of the NT.

Are you a Christian?

At all?



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Yeah nothing like covering up decades of sodomy by these priest.
Oops, I guess you're not a Christian.

Real Christians don't spread lies about someone. This is known as "bearing false witness against your neighbor" and is expressely forbidden.


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My beliefs stand up to the Bible and Christian scholars who interpreted the Bible so I'm not too worried.


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I wonder if the priests who forgive sins and require baptism for salvation ever consider Revelations where the warning is given to those who would add or take away from the Scripture.
First, it's "Revelation."
Second, the book of Revelation didn't have such a warning.
It says:
Re 22:19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

"book of this prophecy" means the book of Revelation. Period.


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Well you are right on the last sentence. I got to get out of here and not return. Between the atheist criticizing everyone and you folks with you religious dogma, it is a no win situation.
You're right. You should exit. You don't have the knowledge, and possibly not the aptitude, to enter into such discussions. You only regurgitate that which you've been mislead to believe, and you won't consider that these things that you've been fed could be wrong, even in the face of proof, including scriptural proof.

Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge...


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Christ died for ALL my sins and I sure don't need a Catholic priest to baptize me or forgive me in a confessional (or maybe other things in a confessional) to obtain salvation.
Interesting mantra, wholly contradicted by Scripture AND Apostolic teaching.
All you seem to have is assertions.


Quote:
See, I knew I would make some Catholics mad.
What Catholics did you make mad? Certainly not me.

I find you amusing, in a sad sort of way.
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Old 08-25-2011, 11:22   #24
Schabesbert
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul7 View Post
Unity begins at the foot of the cross.
Does it also end there?

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The unity God wants is unity on the essentials of the faith,
I don't seem to be able to find a list of these essentials anywhere.

Will you accept my list of essentials as authoritative?

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There are people in the Catholic Church who nevertheless believe in abortion (see the embarassing Joe Biden in China), gay rights, etc. Just because they are members of the Catholic Church isn't the kind of unity God is interested in.
Agreed.

Quoting Peter Kreeft (from one of his talks) on this matter:
"There is no such thing as a 'Kennedy Catholic.' Sadly, it seems that there's no such thing as a Catholic Kennedy, either."

You must understand that the situation is precisely (surprise, surprise!) as Christ predicted it would be:

Mt 13:24 Another parable he put before them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also.
27 And the servants of the householder came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then has it weeds?'
28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Then do you want us to go and gather them?'
29 But he said, 'No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.'"

Mt 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net which was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind;
48 when it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into vessels but threw away the bad.


The kingdom now contains both wheat and tares. Both good and bad fish.
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Old 08-25-2011, 22:36   #25
Sharkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
It sounds like you believe you know what I'm thinking, and what my motivations are. Aside from being totally incorrect, it's wrong to do from a moral, Christian perspective.

I said "sounds like" I can only go off what you post to come to a conclusion of what you believe. I will say, you are a very good Catholic. How is that wrong from a Christian perspective? We makes judgments every day.


Is there? Well, I suppose you could say such a thing, since you're making up your own definition of what it means to be "religious."

No I'm not making it up. Remember those scholars who made it up long before me but long after Christ (says you)? Even using the Catholic standard, do you not think there are "religious" people who are not saved?

but I think I know where you're coming from. You want to form a relationship with Jesus on your own terms, objecting to the way He wants to form a relationship.

I could say the same about you but of course you'd say I'm unbiblical. What was the purpose of Christ's death if it wasn't for the salvation of mankind without the help of a human priest? The bible continues to point out that man is insufficient to save himself and that would include a human priest.



To say WHAT is an exception?

The exception (says you) is the thief on the cross. I say it's not an exception. He believed and he was saved which is biblical. IF it was an exception and only Jesus performs it don't you think He would mention it to the disciples? That exception is listed nowhere else in the bible where all thru the NT the message of salvation is preached. What about Paul's conversion, there was no priest there? My guess is your answer was it was God himself talking to Paul so that is an "exception" too.


No. Let me spell it out for you:
Jesus & the Apostles tell us the plan for salvation.

We differ majorly here. Jesus IS the plan for salvation. The apostles share the Good News. Are you saying the whole ambassadors for Christ and fishers
of men only apply to Priest?


We also know that some people who, through no fault of their own, are not aware of the Gospel, can still be saved.

We also see that, in at least ONE very highly specialized unique instance (the thief on the cross), Jesus made an allowance. Now, this man died as a witness (martyr) to Jesus, and was unable to do things such as being baptized. The Church has ALWAYS recognized such things as exceptions (the so-called "baptism of blood").

I'm not too concerned with what the Roman Church says as much as what the bible says (I'm sure you'll tell me to read it better) Are we all not baptized by the blood of Christ? (I'm sure the atheist love these comments).
Really what good does baptism by water do for salvation? It is an outward expression that the person has changed and is a Christ follower NOT a church follower. Do the Priests somehow make the water holy? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Baptism isn't important, it just isn't required for salvation. I go back to John 3:16. It doesn't say anything about being baptized to receive eternal life.


We don't know what the exceptions are, and therefore it is VERY dangerous and presumptuous to bet your soul on them.

Once again YOU are claiming the exceptions. I say there are no exceptions in the Bible. I would say I don't know them because they aren't in the Bible.
The Bible believing to be the true word of God would tell us of any exceptions right? God loves us and sends his Son to pay the penalty for my sin but He just happens to leave exceptions out of His word?



Very good example. An example for why you need to read the Bible as it was meant to be read: taught by the Church, or you will get some very important things wrong (see Acts 28:6 and following, and 2Peter 3:16 for example).

Just to be clear, are you saying NOT to read the Bible by myself? I need the church, specifically the Catholic church ,to teach me. Obviously the Baptist and Methodists are doing it wrong.

The phrase is:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Sounds good for your argument, until you delve into the meanings of the original Greek text. The word for "believes" in this text is "pisteuo" which means much more than simply acknowledging Jesus. It also implies to be faithful to and to be obedient to.

So the people who "believe" in Him and live their life with faith by being obedient such as following and reading His word, tithing, praising him, and sharing the Good News are only saved if they did it in front of a Priest? It seems like only Priest are the true modern day disciples? The problem with obedience is that it can not be done to perfection. If it could, we could save ourselves.

So if these believers try to be obedient but end up sinning (I'm bad. I sin at least 1X a day and I'm being conservative), they need to specifically go to a Priest? I hate to say it but it sounds like that is pretty religious. One of the few times Jesus was very angry was in the temple where the religious following the law made a mockery of God. Does He not talk about being clean on the outside but dirty on the inside? Only a perfect sacrifice (Jesus), cleanses us, not a dirty human priest similar to myself.

What made the Disciples so special? The great thing about God is he uses ordinary people (like the Disciples and even Billy Graham) to do extraordinary things. You don't have to be special, just available.


That's kind of scary. You should really look it up, rather than proclaiming such a thing. I think it's a 5th grade vocabulary word.

So it's not ok to say I don't know the definition of something? How pious of you?

Peter was dogmatic on circumcision, but why?

Because GOD WANTED IT THAT WAY:
Ac 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:

Peter, the first Pope, was speaking for God.

Paul later takes the message to the uncircumcised and ate meat dedicated to idols because he saw that the meat was well just meat. I believe Paul also admonished Peter at some point for treating the circumcised (Jews) and the uncircumcised (Gentiles) differently?


So, your contention is that all the Apostles and their disciples were teaching wrong doctrine?

No I did not say they taught wrong doctrine but rather that there are other ways to authenticate what was taught.

In that case, you'd be denying most of the NT.

Answered above. The NT tells the good news of salvation.

Are you a Christian?
At all?
Oops, I guess you're not a Christian.

Real Christians don't spread lies about someone. This is known as "bearing false witness against your neighbor" and is expressely forbidden.

Once again, you are pretty pious but that isn't surprising since you are such a good Catholic. How am I spreading "false" witness? Are you saying the victims are lying and that the priests never sodomized them? I guess the Catholic Church payout was what? Goodwill money?

rofl:


First, it's "Revelation."

Ah now we have a nazi speller.

Second, the book of Revelation didn't have such a warning.
It says:
Re 22:19 and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

"book of this prophecy" means the book of Revelation. Period.

Gotcha it doesn't mean the whole Bible. I guess that is why it is ok for the Roman Catholic church to have the you gotta be saved a lot by priests and be baptized to be saved doctrine.



You're right. You should exit. You don't have the knowledge, and possibly not the aptitude, to enter into such discussions. You only regurgitate that which you've been mislead to believe, and you won't consider that these things that you've been fed could be wrong, even in the face of proof, including scriptural proof.

Your right I am just an average joe who was saved by grace. I haven't drank the Kool Aid the the Catholic church has developed. It seems eerily similar to that of the Sadducees and Pharisees that Christ railed against during his time on earth.

Ho 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge...

Well if we are gonna be literal, can I get the official Catholic interpretation of this? Was it strictly for the Jews or Gentiles too?


What Catholics did you make mad? Certainly not me.

I find you amusing, in a sad sort of way.

Great. I appreciate it. My wife finds me amusing in a good way.

Last Q: Do some or all Catholics pray to different saints still and Mary too?

That doesn't contradict the first commandment? I guess if the Catholic church says it's ok, it's ok.

Last edited by Sharkey; 08-25-2011 at 22:55..
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