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Old 08-19-2011, 10:18   #1
ArtificialGrape
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Need Absolved of Abortion? Hustle to Madrid.

Pope Benedict XVI has conferred upon all the priests administering confession during the World Youth Day celebration in Madrid to absolve confessors of abortion and lift the automatic excommunication.

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Old 08-21-2011, 16:31   #2
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Why is this a story? Repentance and confession leading to salvation is quite common in the Bible.
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Old 08-21-2011, 19:09   #3
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You cannot have your sins absolved by anyone, they have to be forgiven by the King of Kings Himself, Jesus Christ.
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Old 08-21-2011, 19:46   #4
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Why is this a story? Repentance and confession leading to salvation is quite common in the Bible.
It seems that only a limited number of priests are normally authorized to absolve abortion within the Roman Catholic Church. However, for people that have been involved in abortion, and that happen to be in Madrid during this particular week, then they can be absolved by any of the priests administering confession for World Youth Day.

It would appear that people that are not in Madrid for the week, and don't have access to one of the otherwise authorized priests are out of luck.

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Old 08-21-2011, 20:33   #5
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Well I'm sure I will upset the "religious" Catholics but last I checked, I did not need a human priest to absolve me of anything. Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven.

Besides, have you seen the price of airfare to Madrid lately + luggage fees.

This is a perfect example of religion vs. Christianity.
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Old 08-22-2011, 15:08   #6
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Sometimes I wish Atheists would mind their own business and leave us believers alone.
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:00   #7
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Sometimes I wish Atheists would mind their own business and leave us believers alone.
Like when Christians:
  • Tell consenting adults who to marry
  • Tell women what to do with their bodies
  • Tell researchers what can be done with a clump of cells
  • Tell people in AIDS ravaged Africa that condoms are evil
  • Are activists pushing to teach Christian Creation in science classes
Is that the example of leaving alone that atheists should strive to follow?

I would be glad to leave alone if religion was harmless, and I was left alone, but I don't see that happening.
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:04   #8
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Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
Like when Christians:
  • Tell consenting adults who to marry
  • Tell women what to do with their bodies
  • Tell researchers what can be done with a clump of cells
  • Tell people in AIDS ravaged Africa that condoms are evil
  • Are activists pushing to teach Christian Creation in science classes
Is that the example of leaving alone that atheists should strive to follow?

I would be glad to leave alone if religion was harmless, and I was left alone, but I don't see that happening.
No, I was just speaking in terms of posting matters of the "other side" on internet threads. Let's not get off topic here AG.
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:18   #9
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No, I was just speaking in terms of posting matters of the "other side" on internet threads. Let's not get off topic here AG.
That wasn't clear from your previous message, but fair enough.

I guess you didn't see the thread as a public service announcement for those that might be in need of absolution.

Does it also bother you when snowbird and DonGlock initiate threads regarding matters involving the "other side", or does it all depend on who the "other side" is?
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Old 08-22-2011, 16:29   #10
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That wasn't clear from your previous message, but fair enough.

I guess you didn't see the thread as a public service announcement for those that might be in need of absolution.

Does it also bother you when snowbird and DonGlock initiate threads regarding matters involving the "other side", or does it all depend on who the "other side" is?
A little. Probably why I don't look at them much anymore. And no, it really doesn't depend on who the "other side" is.

You could do a search and find I have yet to post a thread about atheists doing this or that. Not my thing.
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Old 08-23-2011, 07:59   #11
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Well I'm sure I will upset the "religious" Catholics but last I checked, I did not need a human priest to absolve me of anything. Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven.
You need to check again. Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic.
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Old 08-23-2011, 10:39   #12
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You need to check again. Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic.
Well I am definitely not a theologian but didn't they say the above about Jesus? I'll be doing my quiet time later so go ahead and point me to the scriptures I need to read to get my beliefs in line.

So upon Christ's death, the curtain in the temple was torn apart for what reason? Accident?
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Old 08-23-2011, 11:43   #13
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Well I am definitely not a theologian but didn't they say the above about Jesus?
Not quite, but similar. Does that mean that everyone's addled theories are not unscriptural?

Quote:
I'll be doing my quiet time later so go ahead and point me to the scriptures I need to read to get my beliefs in line.
Well, Christ indeed is the High Priest who forgives sins. But since He promised to ratify the decisions made by the Apostles (and Peter in particular), you need to go through the channels that He instituted. Yes, He can make exceptions, but to presume that you are one of the exceptions is, well, unsafe. As the Catholic Catechism says: "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (CCC no. 1257). This applies to other sacraments as well.

Start with these:

Jn 20:22-23 - breathed on them, "receive Holy Sp." (recall Gn 2:7)
whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained

2 Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation

James 5:13-15 - prayer of presbyters forgives sin

Mt 18:18-whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven


You also said that "Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven."
This seems to imply that you buy into the "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" idea. If so, then there are dozens if not hundreds of places you need to read.



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So upon Christ's death, the curtain in the temple was torn apart for what reason? Accident?
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Old 08-23-2011, 12:59   #14
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Not quite, but similar. Does that mean that everyone's addled theories are not unscriptural?

I would guess that if the theory is not based on Biblical scripture than that would be unscriptural which seems logical to me.


Well, Christ indeed is the High Priest who forgives sins. But since He promised to ratify the decisions made by the Apostles (and Peter in particular), you need to go through the channels that He instituted. Yes, He can make exceptions, but to presume that you are one of the exceptions is, well, unsafe. As the Catholic Catechism says: "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments." (CCC no. 1257). This applies to other sacraments as well.

See I was a Catholic as a child (thanks mom) but not now so I don't go by Catholic Catechism. So baptism is required for salvation? What about the thief on the cross?

Start with these:

Jn 20:22-23 - breathed on them, "receive Holy Sp." (recall Gn 2:7)
whose sins you forgive/retain are forgiven/retained

2 Cor 5:17-20 - given us the ministry of reconciliation

James 5:13-15 - prayer of presbyters forgives sin

Mt 18:18-whatever you bind & loose on earth, so it is in heaven

I'll look at these but my guess is that we interpret these verses differently. I am gonna guess we can both list some scholars that agree with us.


You also said that "Christ is the Great Priest and my sins are already forgiven."
This seems to imply that you buy into the "Once-Saved-Always-Saved" idea. If so, then there are dozens if not hundreds of places you need to read.

OOPS, I AM one of those folks
. Are the dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible or somewhere else? Hence my earlier statement of this thread being a good example of religion vs. Christianity. I think I am in the same camp as Billy Graham which seems like a pretty good camp to be in.

Did you comment on the ripped curtain? If so, I missed it. Sorry.
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Old 08-23-2011, 13:23   #15
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I would guess that if the theory is not based on Biblical scripture than that would be unscriptural which seems logical to me.
OK, that brings us back around to my earlier post, to wit:
"Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic."

Quote:
See I was a Catholic as a child (thanks mom) but not now so I don't go by Catholic Catechism. So baptism is required for salvation? What about the thief on the cross?
Did you bother to read the quote I gave earlier? I explained that there are exceptions.

Quote:
I'll look at these but my guess is that we interpret these verses differently. I am gonna guess we can both list some scholars that agree with us.
Very true. And THAT, my friend, is one huge reason that Christ left us with a teaching office. Otherwise, there'd be tens of thousands of different contradictory opinions, as we see in protestantism today.

He didn't want that. He wanted us UNITED in TRUTH:

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

See also:
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God &Father
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one

Quote:
OOPS, I AM one of those folks. Are the dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible or somewhere else? Hence my earlier statement of this thread being a good example of religion vs. Christianity. I think I am in the same camp as Billy Graham which seems like a pretty good camp to be in.
Not really, since this isn't the camp that the Apostles were in.

Yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible that will contradict the idea of OSAS (which was a novel idea made up in the 16th century).


Quote:
Did you comment on the ripped curtain? If so, I missed it. Sorry.
Nope. Did you provide YOUR interpretation? How much are you reading your beliefs into this event? This is known as eisegesis.
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Old 08-23-2011, 14:38   #16
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
OK, that brings us back around to my earlier post, to wit:
"Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic."


Did you bother to read the quote I gave earlier? I explained that there are exceptions.


Very true. And THAT, my friend, is one huge reason that Christ left us with a teaching office. Otherwise, there'd be tens of thousands of different contradictory opinions, as we see in protestantism today.

He didn't want that. He wanted us UNITED in TRUTH:

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

See also:
Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God &Father
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one


Not really, since this isn't the camp that the Apostles were in.

Yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible that will contradict the idea of OSAS (which was a novel idea made up in the 16th century).



Nope. Did you provide YOUR interpretation? How much are you reading your beliefs into this event? This is known as eisegesis.
Bert, do you believe in 'once baptized as an infant, always saved'?

There is far less disagreement among Protestants on the essentials (as stated in the creeds) than imagined. Most of the differences are on secondary issues.
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Old 08-23-2011, 15:53   #17
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
OK, that brings us back around to my earlier post, to wit:
"Your beliefs are unscriptural and un-Apostolic."

Yes you said that already. Actually my remarks are based on scripture just not the way you (some Catholics) interpret.


Did you bother to read the quote I gave earlier? I explained that there are exceptions.

Yep I did read it. Can Jesus only make those exceptions or can human priests too? Are those exceptions listed in the Bible? Sorry, it's rhetorical.
Who is being unscriptural now?



Very true. And THAT, my friend, is one huge reason that Christ left us with a teaching office. Otherwise, there'd be tens of thousands of different contradictory opinions, as we see in protestantism today.

He didn't want that. He wanted us UNITED in TRUTH:

1Co 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment.

Well I never said there shouldn't be a church with a leader. What I did say is that Jesus is the High Priest and his death presented a way for us to have a personal relationship with God free of a human priest who offers forgiveness.
Hence, the temple curtain being torn in two that divided the temple area from the area restricted to the priest.

We should be united. The problem lies not in infighting between members of a church (as some of the scripture relates to) but with major doctrinal differences.


Not really, since this isn't the camp that the Apostles were in.

Uh oh. Didn't the Pope meet with Graham several times? Did the Pope ever tell Billy, "hey you're doing it wrong"? Perhaps the church can go and tell all those people who answered the alter call that hey you aren't saved if you haven't been baptized or continually ask for forgiveness of sins from a human priest.



Yes, there are dozens if not hundreds of places in the Bible that will contradict the idea of OSAS (which was a novel idea made up in the 16th century).

So a Catholic scholar is correct but a non Catholic biblical scholar is incorrect. To think of all those Baptist and Methodist theologians have it wrong. It's a wonder you even associate with us heathens.



Nope. Did you provide YOUR interpretation? How much are you reading your beliefs into this event? This is known as eisegesis.
Dang, what is it with this RI section? So many folks are so quick to criticize (yeah I do my fair share) but refuse to answer a question I ask about their beliefs. I'm thinking I just need to stick with the CCW, Cop, and Knife section. Someone warned me not to come here, but did listen? No.

At least you'll don't want to exterminate the pit bull here....................yet.


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Old 08-23-2011, 15:56   #18
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Bert, do you believe in 'once baptized as an infant, always saved'?
Of course not. Why do you ask?

Quote:
There is far less disagreement among Protestants on the essentials (as stated in the creeds) than imagined. Most of the differences are on secondary issues.
Perhaps.
But one essential is unity.

Eph 4:3-6 - one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God &Father
Rom 16:17 - avoid those who create dissensions
Phil 2:2 - be of same mind, united in heart, thinking one thing
Rom 15:5 - God grant you to think in harmony w/ one another
Jn 17:17-23 - I pray that they may be one, as we are one
Jn 17:23 - that they may be brought to perfection as one
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Old 08-23-2011, 16:46   #19
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Yes you said that already.
Right. But you avoided responding to what I actually said.

Quote:
Actually my remarks are based on scripture just not the way you (some Catholics) interpret.
No, your remarks are based on YOUR interpretaion, which is in conflict with the way the Church has interpreted them from the very beginning.

You see, one of the major things that drew me to the Catholic Church was the actual historic continuity of belief and practice since the very founding of Christianity.

Quote:
Yep I did read it. Can Jesus only make those exceptions or can human priests too? Are those exceptions listed in the Bible? Sorry, it's rhetorical.
Jesus set up those rules; only He can make exceptions to them. He's the judge.

No, those exceptions are NOT listed in the Bible; that's the point. That's why we can not rely on those exceptions.


Quote:
Who is being unscriptural now?
That's quite simple: you are.

Quote:
Well I never said there shouldn't be a church with a leader. What I did say is that Jesus is the High Priest and his death presented a way for us to have a personal relationship with God free of a human priest who offers forgiveness.
You were doing OK until that last part.

I'll not that you did NOT address the scripture passages I provided above which contradict your mere human "opinion."

Quote:
Hence, the temple curtain being torn in two that divided the temple area from the area restricted to the priest.
It may very well mean something like that. We don't really know. For instance, the text doesn't specify WHICH curtain was torn (there were two).

Quote:
We should be united. The problem lies not in infighting between members of a church (as some of the scripture relates to) but with major doctrinal differences.
Please elucidate.

Quote:
Uh oh. Didn't the Pope meet with Graham several times? Did the Pope ever tell Billy, "hey you're doing it wrong"?
And, what pray tell do you think THAT means?

Since the Pope met with Graham, didn't Graham also meet with the Pope?
Did Billy ever tell the Pope, "hey you're doing it wrong"?

Maybe the Pope is just more respectful than Billy.

Quote:
Perhaps the church can go and tell all those people who answered the alter call that hey you aren't saved if you haven't been baptized or continually ask for forgiveness of sins from a human priest.
The Church's teachings are already there for all to see.

Including, but not limited to, the NT (which the Church authored, through the Holy Spirit, protected, through the same Holy Spirit, and ratified, again through the same Holy Spirit).

Quote:
So a Catholic scholar is correct but a non Catholic biblical scholar is incorrect.
Actually, it was a Catholic scholar & rogue priest that invented that idea (Luther). Many heresies were invented by Catholic scholars, going back to Arius.

No, one way to determine the proper interpretations of scripture is to see how the early Church understood these teachings. If you want to know what John and Peter taught, you could go to the students of John and Peter, for instance. The very men who were discipled and ordained by these Apostles (and who died as martyrs for the name of Jesus). If they were silent on these matters, go to THEIR disciples.


Quote:
Dang, what is it with this RI section? So many folks are so quick to criticize (yeah I do my fair share) but refuse to answer a question I ask about their beliefs. I'm thinking I just need to stick with the CCW, Cop, and Knife section. Someone warned me not to come here, but did listen? No.
If your beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny, then perhaps you should have heeded their advice.
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Old 08-23-2011, 18:12   #20
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No, your remarks are based on YOUR interpretaion, which is in conflict with the way the Church has interpreted them from the very beginning.

That is not entirely true. There are many biblical scholars that believed once saved always saved. I mean we could post scripture here till we get carpal tunnel. The difference is there are different interpretations and I'm not just some moron who comes up with a belief.


You see, one of the major things that drew me to the Catholic Church was the actual historic continuity of belief and practice since the very founding of Christianity.

It sounds like you became Catholic because of the ritualistic repetitions that are found in that religion. As I'll state a third time, there is a huge difference between being religious and being a Christian.


Jesus set up those rules; only He can make exceptions to them. He's the judge.

Well God set up the rules and Jesus is the judge but as you state below, the exemptions aren't listed in scripture so what basis do you use to say that is an exception?

No, those exceptions are NOT listed in the Bible; that's the point. That's why we can not rely on those exceptions.

You can't rely on them but you can state them which is kind of a de facto - relying on them.



That's quite simple: you are.


You were doing OK until that last part.




It may very well mean something like that. We don't really know. For instance, the text doesn't specify WHICH curtain was torn (there were two).

Of course it may mean something like that. Just read that and other passages of the Bible to find that meaning.

Ex. take the basic verse use for salvation John 3:16. Does it say at the end-
"shall not perish but have everlasting life"....for awhile but then you need a human priest to forgive you again cuz you lost your salvation by sinning again?


Please elucidate.

I don't even know what that word means.





Maybe the Pope is just more respectful than Billy.

Yeah nothing like covering up decades of sodomy by these priest.


The Church's teachings are already there for all to see.

No, one way to determine the proper interpretations of scripture is to see how the early Church understood these teachings. If you want to know what John and Peter taught, you could go to the students of John and Peter, for instance. The very men who were discipled and ordained by these Apostles (and who died as martyrs for the name of Jesus). If they were silent on these matters, go to THEIR disciples.

Well kinda. The disciples themselves thought Jesus was a worldly king for the longest time. Peter denied Christ. Peter was also pretty dogmatic on circumcision too. Some of the early churches also thought they were in the end times too. I'm gonna say there are better ways to determine the interpretation of scripture than going by what a disciple taught or worse what the disciple of the disciple taught.

If your beliefs won't stand up to scrutiny, then perhaps you should have heeded their advice.
My beliefs stand up to the Bible and Christian scholars who interpreted the Bible so I'm not too worried. I wonder if the priests who forgive sins and require baptism for salvation ever consider Revelations where the warning is given to those who would add or take away from the Scripture.

Well you are right on the last sentence. I got to get out of here and not return. Between the atheist criticizing everyone and you folks with you religious dogma, it is a no win situation.

Christ died for ALL my sins and I sure don't need a Catholic priest to baptize me or forgive me in a confessional (or maybe other things in a confessional) to obtain salvation.


See, I knew I would make some Catholics mad. See you on the other side...........................maybe.

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