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Old 08-30-2011, 14:47   #181
MrGlock21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Bren, I think you may be projecting KY law a bit too much on other places. (Or maybe I don't understand nuances of other places.)

The places that I've looked at don't excessively care what the defendant believes. For example, AZ says:

13-405 A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another(...)when and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.

So, Counsellor, my question: Which matters more for most places and most people? The reasonable man's standards or the particular defendant's standards?
Time to evoke good ole' Jeff Cooper, quoting from his Principles of Personal Defense: "...Laws vary, and cannot be memorized encyclopedically; in any case, we are not concerned here about jurisprudence, but about survival."
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Old 08-30-2011, 15:30   #182
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Between the two, based on my experiences with law enforcement over 45+ years and the real world experiences of my friends, if I want advice, I'll rely on Bren with a healthy dose of Sam Spade, Dragoon, Snowman and lots of other cops I trust.
Sounds good to me. Beyond the Internet I don't know any of you. Including the guys at the link I posted.

Hopefully you never get in the situation. Here's to hoping if you do and you talk, you talk to a cop you can trust.

Last edited by dnuggett; 08-30-2011 at 15:50..
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Old 08-30-2011, 16:41   #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Sounds good to me. Beyond the Internet I don't know any of you. Including the guys at the link I posted.

Hopefully you never get in the situation. Here's to hoping if you do and you talk, you talk to a cop you can trust.
I know the questions to ask them to determine how trustworthy they are.
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Old 08-30-2011, 19:05   #184
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I avoid this issue by not trying to "capture" anyone. If someone comes at me with a knife or bat and decides to drop it... I will get away from them or they can get away from me, either is just fine. Just speaking for myself, I cant imagine any reason that I would detain, capture or hold anyone by force.
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Old 08-30-2011, 19:09   #185
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I avoid this issue by not trying to "capture" anyone. If someone comes at me with a knife or bat and decides to drop it... I will get away from them or they can get away from me, either is just fine. Just speaking for myself, I cant imagine any reason that I would detain, capture or hold anyone by force.
Amen, brother. If my G17 ever comes out, it will be for shooting, not detaining. I am not an LEO.
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Old 08-30-2011, 20:16   #186
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Originally Posted by NMGlocker View Post
It's situations such as this one where your lawyer will earn his money.
Your best course of action IF you were to shoot the advancing unarmed badguy would be to remember to keep your mouth SHUT when the Police arrive and let your lawyer articulate the justification for deadly force.
-I have a different opinion about not talking to the police after a shooting. When the police arrive they don't know who shot who, who were the aggressors, and I'm sure they will want all weapons on the ground. If the perp starts yelling to the cops how you tried to kill him and he had to defend himself, you will stand by saying nothing? If the perp had a weapon and when the cops arrive he trows it away, you don't tell the officers where the weapon is? I believe I would give the officers a brief account of what happened in my view, then ask not to answer any questions until I have a chance to collect myself. That is when I would ask for my lawyer. Others my disagree.

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Old 08-31-2011, 06:05   #187
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I believe we've lost sight of the original scenario...
Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Let's say you had legal justification to shoot and drew, perhaps because
  • they were approaching with a knife or bat in hand.
  • When you drew your gun they dropped their weapon and stopped advancing.
  • Now you're not able to shoot and are holding them at gunpoint (who would hoster at this point lol).
What's important in the first part is that the weapons require the BG be in very close proximity to to the victim to be used.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
Let's say
  • the[y] start talking to you and
  • are approaching slowly step by step.
  • If you can, try to create distance and put an object between you and them, sure.
Cops will tell you BG's use distractions to gain an advantage over their victims. Talking, sloooowly moving are just two.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
But whether you can or can't create distance and place an object between you,
  • do you have legal justification to shoot if they disobey commands to stop advancing, etc. or
  • do you actually have to get to the point where they are two feet from you and able to snatch your gun, and actually trying to snatch your gun?

What are the elements of such a situation?
First and most important, everyone should know the use of deadly force laws in their own state as well as any state to which they travel while armed. They provide the base for any decision you make.

Equally important, I believe, is keep out of situations where you'll likely be involved in a confrontation. Yeah, I know, that's a, "Well, DUH!!" point.

It's been my experience that no matter how well you plan, train and prepare mentally, something unexpected is going to happen.

For example, in the OP's scenario, lets add that the victim is 6', 190lbs, healthy, and in good physical shape. The BG is 5'8", 140lbs, pale looking, and does not look to be in good physical condition.

The victim draws and the BG drops his weapon, puts his hands out to his sides at chest level. Looks like he's giving up, quitting, right?

Go back to the scenario. He begins to talk softly, barely audible, and begins making baby-steps towards the victim. He begins flexing his fingers. You're the victim, he's now 10', 120 inches from you.

Let's add more to the scenario. This is in front of the local gasmart. There are other customers inside. They are watching, but can't hear the BG telling you he is going to stick his hand into your chest and rip your heart out and feed it to you. All they see is a man holding a gun on someone holding his arms out in a non-threatening manner.

5' away he begins to bring his arms forward, slowly. Bang, bang...BG drops.

Did you shoot too late or too soon?

Cops arrive. They ask, "What happened?" You don't say anything, or you say you'll be happy to talk after you've talked to your attorney, or any of the other "I don't talk to cops" phrases. They are talking to the witnesses in the store. The witnesses are giving officers "their perspective" of the events in "great detail" (right or wrong). Cops inside come out and tell the cop talking to you the version(s) they heard inside.

They ask you again, "What happened?" You still refuse choose to give no information. Do you think you have helped yourself or hurt yourself?
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Old 08-31-2011, 08:39   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post

Cops arrive. They ask, "What happened?" You don't say anything, or you say you'll be happy to talk after you've talked to your attorney, or any of the other "I don't talk to cops" phrases. They are talking to the witnesses in the store. The witnesses are giving officers "their perspective" of the events in "great detail" (right or wrong). Cops inside come out and tell the cop talking to you the version(s) they heard inside.

They ask you again, "What happened?" You still refuse choose to give no information. Do you think you have helped yourself or hurt yourself?

Depends on what you'd say. Do you know what in that circumstance will absolutely help you, and what would hurt you? Are you sure you are going to get exactly what happened right? What if you get something wrong? No matter what you say you are going for the ride. And in your scenario what you say will differ from what the witness said.

What do you expect to gain from immediately talking that could not be gained later? Maybe there is something critical. Are you going to be able to clearly articulate it? In that moment do even realize what would be the critical element that could help you? The investigation into what happened is just beginning.

Since you posed the question what if you are too early or too late-
What if you are in the wrong (by legal definition). You still think it's a good idea to start talking?

Last edited by dnuggett; 08-31-2011 at 09:11..
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Old 08-31-2011, 15:02   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Depends on what you'd say. Do you know what in that circumstance will absolutely help you, and what would hurt you? Are you sure you are going to get exactly what happened right? What if you get something wrong?
Those are all good issues, and go back to the idea that "don't talk to the police" does not mean the same thing as "don't say anything to the police". You don't want to go through an interrogation. You do want to establish a basic "I'm the good guy here" line.
Quote:
No matter what you say you are going for the ride.
That is not really accurate. There are plenty of instances where there was no immediate arrest of the shooter in SD situations.
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Old 08-31-2011, 15:15   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
Those are all good issues, and go back to the idea that "don't talk to the police" does not mean the same thing as "don't say anything to the police". You don't want to go through an interrogation. You do want to establish a basic "I'm the good guy here" line.
Agreed. The hurdle though is knowing what to say and when to say it. My opinion is that the average CCW holder spends 99% of their time thinking about gear and how to stay within the law. Very few think about what happens after a shooting and most are ill prepared when the police show up to their homicide scene. Knowing what to say and when to shut up is something that most will be clueless on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
That is not really accurate. There are plenty of instances where there was no immediate arrest of the shooter in SD situations.
In the conext of Russ's scenario it is quite accurate, IMO. Outside his scenario I agree with you.
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Old 08-31-2011, 15:20   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Armstrong View Post
Those are all good issues, and go back to the idea that "don't talk to the police" does not mean the same thing as "don't say anything to the police". You don't want to go through an interrogation. You do want to establish a basic "I'm the good guy here" line.

That is not really accurate. There are plenty of instances where there was no immediate arrest of the shooter in SD situations.
Yep...

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Depends on what you'd say.
That is correct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Do you know what in that circumstance will absolutely help you, and what would hurt you?
In all probability, yes, I will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Are you sure you are going to get exactly what happened right?
Yes, but I will not be discussing those details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
What if you get something wrong?
Again, I will not be going into those details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
No matter what you say you are going for the ride.
As David said, that may or may not be true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
And in your scenario what you say will differ from what the witness said.
No, not really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
What do you expect to gain from immediately talking that could not be gained later?
Establishing my reason for shooting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Maybe there is something critical.
I'll not be discussing details to that degree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Are you going to be able to clearly articulate it?
Me? Oh hell yes, but again, I'll not be discussing the details.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
In that moment do even realize what would be the critical element that could help you?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
The investigation into what happened is just beginning.
That is the key, "just beginning."

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Since you posed the question what if you are too early or too late-
What if you are in the wrong (by legal definition). You still think it's a good idea to start talking?
Whether one is right or wrong would be decided many weeks or months down the road. I am not, repeat, not going to plead my case at the scene.
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Old 08-31-2011, 15:22   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Agreed. The hurdle though is knowing what to say and when to say it. My opinion is that the average CCW holder spends 99% of their time thinking about gear and how to stay within the law. Very few think about what happens after a shooting and most are ill prepared when the police show up to their homicide scene. Knowing what to say and when to shut up is something that most will be clueless on.
All true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
In the conext of Russ's scenario it is quite accurate, IMO. Outside his scenario I agree with you.
Perhaps and yes.
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Old 08-31-2011, 15:35   #193
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So Russ- given that we agree that most are clueless on what to say, when to say it, and when to shut up, do you feel that most should attempt to establish their good guy line?

Or might it be better to suggest that the average CCW holder take several classes from well respected instructors who have related curriculum and formulate their own plan based on the knowledge that they gain from talking/listening to those that know, and what they know about their own ability to think rationally in high stress situations?

Last edited by dnuggett; 08-31-2011 at 15:45..
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Old 08-31-2011, 16:30   #194
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As we are contemplating this, it may be well to remember that professional criminals are excellent at "lawyering up" and some officers could potentially conclude, true or not, that "lawyering up" equates to hard core criminal status.
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Old 08-31-2011, 16:39   #195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
So Russ- given that we agree that most are clueless on what to say, when to say it, and when to shut up, do you feel that most should attempt to establish their good guy line?
Where did we agree?
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Or might it be better to suggest that the average CCW holder take several classes from well respected instructors who have related curriculum and formulate their own plan based on the knowledge that they gain from talking/listening to those that know, and what they know about their own ability to think rationally in high stress situations?
I would suggest people know and understand state law, talk with people with experience, talk with local police, and talk with local attorneys.
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Old 08-31-2011, 17:10   #196
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I was told(by a real attorney and former leo) to clearly point out to the responding officers how you're the victim even though the other guy is the one with the ventilation holes and leaking all over the place, by telling the officers what the individual done, how you responded, how you feared for your life/safety and to tell them that they can expect your full cooperation within 24 hrs after you've had time to speak with an attorney.
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Old 08-31-2011, 17:22   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BailRecoveryAgent View Post
I was told(by a real attorney and former leo) to clearly point out to the responding officers how you're the victim even though the other guy is the one with the ventilation holes and leaking all over the place, by telling the officers what the individual done, how you responded, how you feared for your life/safety and to tell them that they can expect your full cooperation within 24 hrs after you've had time to speak with an attorney.
Exactly.

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Old 08-31-2011, 18:03   #198
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Where did we agree?
I didn't think it was much of a leap that you'd agree with a statement you believed was true.
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Old 08-31-2011, 18:29   #199
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Quote:
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I didn't think it was much of a leap that you'd agree with a statement you believed was true.
Where did I say that?
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Old 08-31-2011, 18:45   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Where did I say that?
What am I missing here? It's possible I am misinterpreting, but I don't know how. Help!


Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
Agreed. The hurdle though is knowing what to say and when to say it. My opinion is that the average CCW holder spends 99% of their time thinking about gear and how to stay within the law. Very few think about what happens after a shooting and most are ill prepared when the police show up to their homicide scene. Knowing what to say and when to shut up is something that most will be clueless on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
All true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dnuggett View Post
So Russ- given that we agree that most are clueless on what to say, when to say it, and when to shut up, do you feel that most should attempt to establish their good guy line?

Last edited by dnuggett; 08-31-2011 at 18:49..
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