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Old 08-29-2011, 15:39   #161
Bren
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Originally Posted by Sam Spade View Post
Bren, I think you may be projecting KY law a bit too much on other places. (Or maybe I don't understand nuances of other places.)

The places that I've looked at don't excessively care what the defendant believes. For example, AZ says:

13-405 A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another(...)when and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.

So, Counsellor, my question: Which matters more for most places and most people? The reasonable man's standards or the particular defendant's standards?
You are right that Kentucky does not use the "reasonable person" standard other states do - that is discussed in some of the commentary from when we adopted the statute in 1974 - here there is no "reasonableness" requirement, you only have to convince the factfinder that you "believed" it, although there are some exceptions if they find your belief was reckless or wanton.

We adopted it from a model penal code in 1974 and it is the same in some states, but I haven't researched to find out how many.

As for projecting Kentucky law on other place - I made the point using Kentucky law as an example in my first post, which s where the discussion came from - people disputing what I said about Kentucky law. I'm not projecting Kentucky law, just responding to what people have said about my original opinion on Kentucky law.
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Last edited by Bren; 08-29-2011 at 15:45..
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Old 08-29-2011, 15:44   #162
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[QUOTE=Tilley;17842699]
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post

Hope you don't mind if I fixed this up for you...
You should have read the thread first - I also said talking to the police is a bad idea if your shooting is not justified, just like talking to them is a good idea if your shooting is justified. That, obviously to most, doesn't add up to "always" talk to the police, although it should, assuming we are all law abiding CCWers with a basic knowledge of legal justifications (most of what KY teaches to CCw applicants in class).

I could add a third group: If you don't know whether your shooting is justified, you should have figured it out before you left home with a gun, so I have little sympathy.
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Old 08-29-2011, 15:47   #163
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Originally Posted by poodleshooter1 View Post
In Brenville, it's in your best interest to open up to the police and say the wrong things while you are trying to convince them that you, Joe Bob who works at the Dollar Store was innocent. God forbid you have an attorney who spent 7 years of study to obtain a Juris Doctorate (including undergrad) and does this for a living handle the convincing...
But unlike most people you know, I both defend people in court in shooting cases and I always win.
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Old 08-29-2011, 15:48   #164
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I'd spray the SOB with my OC Spray. That would stop him/her.
Maybe. It is very possible to fight through OC spray.
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Old 08-29-2011, 16:06   #165
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[QUOTE=Bren;17845370]
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Originally Posted by Tilley View Post

You should have read the thread first - I also said talking to the police is a bad idea if your shooting is not justified, just like talking to them is a good idea if your shooting is justified. That, obviously to most, doesn't add up to "always" talk to the police, although it should, assuming we are all law abiding CCWers with a basic knowledge of legal justifications (most of what KY teaches to CCw applicants in class).

I could add a third group: If you don't know whether your shooting is justified, you should have figured it out before you left home with a gun, so I have little sympathy.
Whatever dude. What a police officer thinks is justified and what your average citizen thinks are two different animals. LAPD's Stacey Koons thought his use of force was justified...a lot of good that did him.

If you can't differentiate those two concepts, there is little point for me to continue on here.

Good luck on your illustrious career counsellor.
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Old 08-29-2011, 16:45   #166
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EXACTLY!! That is what needs to be understood here. What you thought matters very little once you get into the courtroom. The prosecutor will try to paint a picture, the lawyer for the BGs family in the civil case will try to paint a picture, and so on. Jurors, most of whom won't have much if any training in firearms and self defense will be painting their own pictures based on what each side is telling them. And if you can't show the jury why your picture is prettier than the others, doom on you.
While I understand what you are trying to accomplish in this thread, I hope it doesn't cost a "good guy" his/her life. No, I'm not in the "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" camp. It sounds neat, but it's a logical fallacy as a general statement. I also understand that there could be times when a recently disarmed person (after being held at gunpoint) advances toward you with the possible intent to take your weapon. What I can convince a jury of is only part of what interests me at that point. What do I do if I'm certain he's going to kill me, but I also know there's a decent chance I'll go to jail for it?


ETA: I replaced the last "certain" with "decent chance" because if I'm certain I'm going to jail for it, odds are not good that it was justified....

Last edited by nmk; 08-29-2011 at 16:50..
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Old 08-29-2011, 16:57   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
I'd spray the SOB with my OC Spray. That would stop him/her.
Maybe he's wearing glasses and no OC hits his eyes.

Maybe he's been sprayed before and it merely annoys him.

Maybe it will just demonstrate that you were bluffing about shooting him.

Maybe you shouldn't point a gun at someone unless you are willing to use it.

Maybe.

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Old 08-29-2011, 17:04   #168
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Maybe he's wearing glasses and no OC hits his eyes.

Maybe he's been sprayed before and it merely annoys him.

Maybe it will just demonstrate that you were bluffing about shooting him.

Maybe you shouldn't point a gun at someone unless you are willing to use it.

Maybe.

If I ever feel the need to bring out my G17, it will result in one or more people getting ventilated by my +p+ 115gr JHPs.
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Old 08-29-2011, 17:06   #169
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Maybe. It is very possible to fight through OC spray.
And it would show his lethal intent. Then I would shoot him to the ground.
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Old 08-29-2011, 17:07   #170
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I was just thinking: I've actually conducted murder investigations and arrests as a police officer, taught use of force to police and corrections officers in academies, after a few years as a police firearms instructor, represented police in shooting cases in state and federal courts, etc.

Those who are dead sure I'm wrong and you should never talk to the police: what do you base that on? Education, experience with actual cases? Some trusted source? What?
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Old 08-29-2011, 17:41   #171
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What do I do if I'm certain he's going to kill me, but I also know there's a decent chance I'll go to jail for it?


ETA: I replaced the last "certain" with "decent chance" because if I'm certain I'm going to jail for it, odds are not good that it was justified....
When you're more afraid of the guy approaching you than you are of spending the next 15 years being everyone's slutty date at the prison prom, the answer is clear. Sounds trite and funny, but those are the stakes after all.

You want to avoid the grey. Shoot when you must, not when you can. Shooting when you think you can turns out badly when you are mistaken.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 08-29-2011 at 17:43..
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Old 08-29-2011, 18:29   #172
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Texas... Castle Doctrine... Drop 'em.
Seems to me a couple of years ago we discussed on this very forum a situation in Texas that started as a road rage incident and progressed to an older gent being chased around his own car by a younger, larger and intoxicated individual who was promising to award the gent with all kinds of unpleasant things in a short order.

The older guy pulled a gun and screamed his intent to protect himself. Which apparently didn't deter the assailant who chased the older guy for a few more laps before catching up. At which point he got shot and killed. And the older guy went to jail.

Personally, I sign up to the theory that if you have a doubt as to whether you should shoot you probably shouldn’t.
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Old 08-29-2011, 18:43   #173
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I say warn them, if threat continues, then you have no choice but to defend yourself.
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Old 08-29-2011, 19:40   #174
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... It is seriously foolish to give someone the advice to not talk to the police in a self-defense shooting, since the sole difference between going home and a murder charge can be your own statement as to your subjective reasonm from shooting. If you don't think an arrest can snowball all the way to a conviction, once you are a murder defendant in the county jail, you don't know much about the legal system.

I agree that sometimes what happens in the first few minutes of the first officer arriving on the scene goes a very long way in establishing the direction of the rest of the incident. And in at least some locations in some circumstances talking to the police can go a long way to minimize problems.
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:04   #175
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Originally Posted by nmk View Post
While I understand what you are trying to accomplish in this thread, I hope it doesn't cost a "good guy" his/her life. No, I'm not in the "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" camp. It sounds neat, but it's a logical fallacy as a general statement. I also understand that there could be times when a recently disarmed person (after being held at gunpoint) advances toward you with the possible intent to take your weapon. What I can convince a jury of is only part of what interests me at that point. What do I do if I'm certain he's going to kill me, but I also know there's a decent chance I'll go to jail for it?


ETA: I replaced the last "certain" with "decent chance" because if I'm certain I'm going to jail for it, odds are not good that it was justified....
No real disagreement from me on that. If the choice is "die or go to jail" then let's go to jail is my normal default. My point is that way too many here seem to think that "I was scared" IS a justification in and of itself. It is not. If you are certain he is going to kill you then you should be able to justify that to others, and are probably OK. If it is possible he is going to kill you then it is less likely to be OK. If we are down to "I thought that it was possible that he maybe might could have killed me" I think you are not OK at all.

See Steve's Post #171.

Last edited by David Armstrong; 08-30-2011 at 12:07..
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:08   #176
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I was just thinking: I've actually conducted murder investigations and arrests as a police officer, taught use of force to police and corrections officers in academies, after a few years as a police firearms instructor, represented police in shooting cases in state and federal courts, etc.

Those who are dead sure I'm wrong and you should never talk to the police: what do you base that on? Education, experience with actual cases? Some trusted source? What?
Come on, Bren, you know the internet rules.....actual education, training, and experience are completely irrelevant when compared to opinions!

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Old 08-30-2011, 12:34   #177
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Come on, Bren, you know the internet rules.....actual education, training, and experience are completely irrelevant when compared to opinions!
Too bad those guys aren't responding - I was actually interested to see what their answer would be. I seriously don't get why people would defend an opinion so vigorously when they haven't stated any reason that they hold that opinion.
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Old 08-30-2011, 12:38   #178
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
...
Those who are dead sure I'm wrong and you should never talk to the police: what do you base that on? Education, experience with actual cases? Some trusted source? What?

I'll bite - the internet. Because no matter what you think,no matter how off base, arcane, odd, it is easy to find a group that agrees with you here on the internet.
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Old 08-30-2011, 13:06   #179
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Come on, Bren, you know the internet rules.....actual education, training, and experience are completely irrelevant when compared to opinions!
Ok, let's see what some folks like a criminal defense attorney/now a professor and an officer from Virginia Beach have to say.

For those that don't want to listen to the professor (don't blame you at all) the officer starts speaking at 27:20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
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Old 08-30-2011, 14:22   #180
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Ok, let's see what some folks like a criminal defense attorney/now a professor and an officer from Virginia Beach have to say.

For those that don't want to listen to the professor (don't blame you at all) the officer starts speaking at 27:20.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
Between the two, based on my experiences with law enforcement over 45+ years and the real world experiences of my friends, if I want advice, I'll rely on Bren with a healthy dose of Sam Spade, Dragoon, Snowman and lots of other cops I trust.
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