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Old 09-12-2011, 15:48   #1
sdfmacross2
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Is this USPSA production legal?

Great. After slamming down some stuff for my glock 19 I'm getting 50/50 on the legality. I swear this is legal, but I'm gonna ask to make sure before I show up and feel retarded. I upgraded my glock 19 a bit for my first USPSA production match this saturday. Please let me know if this is legal?

Glock 19 Gen 3
extended mag release (tango down larry vickers)
extended slide stop (tango down larry vickers)
warren tactical plain black rear sight
dawson fiber optic front sight
glockmeister butt plug
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Old 09-12-2011, 15:52   #2
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I don't really know, but I would be SHOCKED if that short list of MINOR stuff is illegal.
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Old 09-12-2011, 15:58   #3
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http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2010Handg...sProof3web.pdf
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Old 09-12-2011, 16:04   #4
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Do I really have to read 108 pages of stuff? Plus this is not my first language so can I please get some help?
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Old 09-12-2011, 16:29   #5
ede
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without looking I think the plug will get you. it's a modification you can see. instead of reading 180 pages try reading the one or two pages listed under Production, ought to be in an annex.

EDIT: Production is page 50 and I was right the plug isn't allowed, all other changes would be legal the way I read the rules. local match most likely no one will notice or care. a state or area match and it would be an issue.
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Last edited by ede; 09-12-2011 at 16:50..
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Old 09-12-2011, 16:40   #6
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You're good with the sights. The butt plug is dicey. The extended mag release and slide stop are definitely NOT USPSA Production legal. You are fine using the extended controls that are made by Glock. Anytihng else is a no-no.

Click on link, then search "appendix D4"

Exchange of minor
EXTERNAL components
Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, extractors and
ejectors MAY be replaced with OEM or aftermarket
parts.
Any other components which are externally visible
may ONLY be replaced with OEM parts which are80 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition
22 Specifically prohibited
modifications and features
Please note that the absence of an item in the list of
prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to
mean a modification is allowed. A modification is
only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules
clause or interpretation which specifically declares
that it is allowed in the Division.
Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other
factory safety mechanism in Production division is
specifically prohibited.
21.6
(cont)
Exchange of minor
EXTERNAL components
offered on the specific model of gun or another
approved gun from the same manufacturer except as
specifically clarified below. Examples of external
components which may only be replaced with OEM
parts include (but are not limited to): magazine
releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.

Special Notes/Clarifications:
• Barrels are considered “external parts” and are subject to specific restrictions in 21.4 and associated
rulings.
• A factory/OEM magazine release which extends
only the length of the magazine release may be used.
A magazine release which provides larger surface
area (paddles, buttons) may only be used if it is an
OEM part available on an approved model of gun.
• Externally-visible parts from “custom shop” guns
will only be considered “OEM parts” if the customshop gun is on the NROI list of approved Production guns.
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Last edited by MrVvrroomm; 09-12-2011 at 16:41..
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Old 09-12-2011, 16:53   #7
ede
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— Exchange of minor components
(springs, safeties, slide stops, guide
rods).

to me this would allow the mag release and what i tihnk he means to be slide release lever.

i'm looking at April 26 2010 edition, might not be the latest edition.
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Last edited by ede; 09-12-2011 at 16:54..
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Old 09-12-2011, 17:43   #8
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Okay. So do I believe Ede or Mr.Vrrroommm? Anyways I called the person actually running the event and everything is fine except for the butt plug. Just as Ede stated since it's just local no one will care much for the butt plug. Everything else is good to go. Thank you Ede
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Old 09-12-2011, 17:53   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ede View Post
— Exchange of minor components
(springs, safeties, slide stops, guide
rods).

to me this would allow the mag release and what i think he means to be slide release lever.
Appendix D4 21.5
Quote:
21.6 Exchange of minor
EXTERNAL components
Sights, firing pins, firing pin retainers, extractors and
ejectors MAY be replaced with OEM or aftermarket
parts.
Any other components which are externally visible
may ONLY be replaced with OEM parts which are
80 • USPSA Handgun Rules, June 2010 Edition
22 Specifically prohibited
modifications and features

Please note that the absence of an item in the list of
prohibited modifications MAY NOT be construed to
mean a modification is allowed. A modification is
only allowed in Production Division if there is a rules
clause or interpretation which specifically declares
that it is allowed in the Division.
Removing or disabling firing-pin blocks or any other
factory safety mechanism in Production division is
specifically prohibited.
21.6
(cont)
Exchange of minor
EXTERNAL components
offered on the specific model of gun or another
approved gun from the same manufacturer except as
specifically clarified below. Examples of external
components which may only be replaced with OEM
parts include (but are not limited to): magazine
releases, slide stops, thumb safeties and triggers.

Special Notes/Clarifications:
• Barrels are considered “external parts” and are subject
to specific restrictions in 21.4 and associated
rulings.
• A factory/OEM magazine release which extends
only the length of the magazine release may be used.
A magazine release which provides larger surface
area (paddles, buttons) may only be used if it is an
OEM part available on an approved model of gun.
• Externally-visible parts from “custom shop” guns
will only be considered “OEM parts” if the customshop
gun is on the NROI list of approved Production
guns.
APPENDIX D4 — Production Division (Contd.)


Glock did not make the mag release or the slide release. That would be a no.

There is a reason it's called Production class. Shoot limited if you want to game your gun up. It's legal for that right now.

Last edited by coverdog; 09-12-2011 at 18:12..
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Old 09-12-2011, 18:10   #10
sdfmacross2
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I called the guy running the event and he said since glock came out with all those extended parts then it's fine. Of course he said its fine for local and not state or national matches
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Old 09-12-2011, 18:14   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfmacross2 View Post
I called the guy running the event and he said since glock came out with all those extended parts then it's fine. Of course he said its fine for local and not state or national matches
Well yea, until someone complains about it.

Last edited by coverdog; 09-12-2011 at 18:16.. Reason: spelling
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Old 09-12-2011, 18:17   #12
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I have a similar setup in my Glock 17. It's the gun I train with, and all the mods are there to make me a better shooter. I could care less which class that puts me in. I shoot for fun.
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Old 09-12-2011, 18:23   #13
MrVvrroomm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfmacross2 View Post
I called the guy running the event and he said since glock came out with all those extended parts then it's fine. Of course he said its fine for local and not state or national matches
You asked if it was USPSA Production legal. The answer was given to you, with proof. What more do you need?

Yeah, they may overlook it at your local club matches, but start beating some of the top shooters in production and you WILL be noticed. It's ok to cheat at your local matches?
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Old 09-12-2011, 18:31   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfmacross2 View Post
I called the guy running the event and he said since glock came out with all those extended parts then it's fine. Of course he said its fine for local and not state or national matches
Sadly, that has become the norm in USPSA Production. There is a reason why we have a rule book and Range Masters and Match Directors should enforce it even at Level I matches.

There is nothing wrong with using the LV Slide Lock and Mag Release, just shoot it in Limited or L10 as these parts are allowed there. Otherwise, you could use the Glock OEM Extended Slide Lock and Mag Release (originally manufactured for the G34/G35). Using OEM parts (even though they are extended) is allowed in Production.
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Old 09-12-2011, 18:52   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cysoto View Post
Sadly, that has become the norm in USPSA Production. There is a reason why we have a rule book and Range Masters and Match Directors should enforce it even at Level I matches.

There is nothing wrong with using the LV Slide Lock and Mag Release, just shoot it in Limited or L10 as these parts are allowed there. Otherwise, you could use the Glock OEM Extended Slide Lock and Mag Release (originally manufactured for the G34/G35). Using OEM parts (even though they are extended) is allowed in Production.
Let's say you had a Glock extended mag release, and it happened to wear into the exact pattern as the Vickers
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Old 09-12-2011, 18:58   #16
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.....

Last edited by coverdog; 09-12-2011 at 18:59..
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Old 09-12-2011, 19:16   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlliniGlocker View Post
Let's say you had a Glock extended mag release, and it happened to wear into the exact pattern as the Vickers
That's a possibility but it's going to take a lot of live and dry fire practice to get there!!
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Old 09-12-2011, 20:16   #18
sdfmacross2
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the oem extended mag release for the glock is actually longer. What if I just said it was an oem extended mag release and put the oem extended slide release? Would that make my glock 19 production legal?
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Old 09-12-2011, 21:41   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfmacross2 View Post
Okay. So do I believe Ede or Mr.Vrrroommm? Anyways I called the person actually running the event and everything is fine except for the butt plug. Just as Ede stated since it's just local no one will care much for the butt plug. Everything else is good to go. Thank you Ede
That seems to be my experience as well. Butt plugs don't always go over so well.
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Old 09-12-2011, 21:59   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdfmacross2 View Post
the oem extended mag release for the glock is actually longer. What if I just said it was an oem extended mag release and put the oem extended slide release? Would that make my glock 19 production legal?
As long as the part is manufactured by and sold as a Glock part, you are good to go in Production. Even if a third party company made a part that was 100% just like the original, it would still be prohibited in Production because it is not an OEM part.

Some people will ask "but how will they know" and the answer to that is "you know". This is a volunteer sport and we, the shooters, need to set the example. I am not saying that there are not people out there who will purposefully cheat but I can do my part to make sure that I am not "that person."
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Old 09-26-2011, 16:22   #21
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These questions are why I've chosen to shoot Limited.

The reality is that you are only really competing with yourself. If you crap out it will be because YOU did so, not the gun, not the other competitors.

Welcome to the sport. Have fun.
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Old 09-26-2011, 17:27   #22
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There is always someone trying to beat the system or bend the rules! Most convince their self that it is OK, no one will know or care what tyey do!
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Old 09-26-2011, 20:18   #23
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Originally Posted by 21Carrier View Post
That seems to be my experience as well. Butt plugs don't always go over so well.
Hey... what kind of a site is this?????
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Old 09-27-2011, 00:54   #24
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This whole thread is why I do not shoot IPSC anymore - too many rules and lawyers, and gamers. There should only be three classes, like the good old days, "iron sights"; optical sights, and revolvers (and I am not too sure about the last one).
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Old 09-27-2011, 04:43   #25
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Here is what I have running on my Glock 34, which is currently 100% production legal, and has been verified by one of the top RO's for the NW section of USPSA. The Glock 34 was designed, size wise, to fit into the prodution "box", so I run it with standard base pads (extended would be pointless anyways, 10 rd. mag limit). Here is the rest:
-Scherer plastic butt plug (weight < .1 oz)
-Tungsten guide rod (weight ~1.6 oz)
-15 lb. ISMI spring
-Standard slide release (replaced extended)
-Extended magazine release, Glock OEM plastic
-Warren/Sevigny fiber optic front, black rear
-Competition plunger spring, striker spring, and trigger spring
-Polished internal components
-Stock "-" connector

The most important thing to keep in mind when conducting "minor" modifications is that you may not increase the weight of your production gun more than 2 oz. over the stock weight.

For INTERNAL modifications, such as the connector, springs, barrel, aftermarket brands are OK... just remember the weight limit.

For EXTERNAL modifications, you may replace minor parts such as the trigger, slide release, magazine release, with a factory/OEM replacement. That means that your Vicker's magazine release would be against Production rules, as they are currently written. The Glock extended slide release, on the other hand, is definitely legal. Also interesting to note, is an exception to that rule: grip plugs are LEGAL, according to the USPSA rule book, "external plugs which alter the grip profile or extend past the bottom of the grip are PROHIBITED". After getting clarification during a regional qualifier match from a reputable source (Production Master class, RO), this means a flush fit plug is OK.

That being said, nobody cracks down on such minor mods at the club level. The only time you are going to have your gun weighed, or examined for legality at all, is at a national qualifier, or major state tournament (and that's even a MAYBE). That doesn't mean you should try to bend the rules to your advantage at the club level. It just means that your Vicker's mag release will be fine, until you get yourself the Glock OEM extended mag release.

All the little technicalities that the average "Production" competitor worries about were not made to stress the average shooter. They are in place to keep the A, Master, and Grand Master shooters on an even keel, where every little bit can mean tenths of a second. That being said, be familiar with the rules because it can never hurt.

Always remember, the most important thing is TECHNIQUE, not parts. I will admit, I got caught up in the excitement of maxing out my production gun, technically speaking, but it is a one time booster. Practice is what we all need to continue to progress, more than anything

Sorry if your face is melting from my long-as-hell comment, by the way. Good luck!
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