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Old 09-13-2011, 12:01   #61
gwalchmai
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Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
I’m sorry but how is “ because a religious book says something” and argument for a law at all in this country? This is America, not some third world tribe state. Dam it people start acting like it.
Are you saying we should abandon all laws which are derived from religious documents? Like murder and theft?
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:03   #62
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Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
I’m sorry but how is “ because a religious book says something” and argument for a law at all in this country? This is America, not some third world tribe state. Dam it people start acting like it.
We are a country where 83% of people claim religious affiliation and 76% of them are Christians, we are about as far from third world as you can get.
Laws are based on commonalities in morality and human decency. The fact that so many of our laws have basic biblical premise should be a clue.
When the United States had a higher church-going population so many years ago, the crime rates weren't near what they are today. Chipping away at organized religion and the good it does is furthering the moral decay and creating a nation of thugs and dirtbags. I'm not saying if you don't go to church you are either of those, but denying that there are more people living now that have no regard for humanity is a serious case of denial.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:10   #63
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Are you saying we should abandon all laws which are derived from religious documents? Like murder and theft?
well considering how universal those laws are I don’t think any religion can lay a claim to them. (well ok maybe Shamash) also we see there codification by secular courts and governments. not to mention that they are, unlike the case hear, necessary rules of a state to maintain order and civilization. unlike this case we have plenty of laws that are created in our secular legal system that are just and necessary. Just because they also exist or do not exist in a religious book is only a reflection on how close their attempt at defining justice is to ours
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:17   #64
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well considering how universal those laws are I don’t think any religion can lay a claim to them. (well ok maybe Shamash) also we see there codification by secular courts and governments. not to mention that they are, unlike the case hear, necessary rules of a state to maintain order and civilization. unlike this case we have plenty of laws that are created in our secular legal system that are just and necessary. Just because they also exist or do not exist in a religious book is only a reflection on how close their attempt at defining justice is to ours
Could you help me out and provide a list of "laws that are created in our secular legal system that are just and necessary" which do not exist in the Bible?
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:24   #65
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Originally Posted by GLWyandotte View Post
We are a country where 83% of people claim religious affiliation and 76% of them are Christians, we are about as far from third world as you can get.
Laws are based on commonalities in morality and human decency. The fact that so many of our laws have basic biblical premise should be a clue.
When the United States had a higher church-going population so many years ago, the crime rates weren't near what they are today. Chipping away at organized religion and the good it does is furthering the moral decay and creating a nation of thugs and dirtbags. I'm not saying if you don't go to church you are either of those, but denying that there are more people living now that have no regard for humanity is a serious case of denial.
I don’t deny that at all. ( the common morality part) I feel its part of the reason we see very similar laws and legal ideas across cultures. Some things have to be in place for a society to run. Sometimes religions successfully capture these ideas and put them in writing. Unfortunately they also have some rules that well, might have appeared moral at the time but are not moral now. the problem is we seem to have an issue with people that cannot observe that and notice that what was moral 2000 years ago must be moral now.
As for the church and crime thing. If I am not mistaken form statistics the general trend has been downwards in crime. Some of it may be that I am lucky to live in a below average crime level city in a borough that despite still not being the best is improvising. There are a lot of facts contributing to high crime levels but I am not shore if church attendance is much of one. During spikes of crime we saw in the 60s and inter war years was there a decrees in church attendance? In the hood I live the big bad gangsters use to be Italians who generally are church goers. Not shore how much water your idea holds.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:25   #66
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
Could you help me out and provide a list of "laws that are created in our secular legal system that are just and necessary" which do not exist in the Bible?
Don’t remember the list of laws in the bible. But I am pretty shore they lacked traffic and torts law.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:30   #67
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Could you help me out and provide a list of "laws that are created in our secular legal system that are just and necessary" which do not exist in the Bible?
Well, Gwalch, the only one I can think of is in Minnesota a person may not cross state lines with a duck atop his head.

It may be in Deuteronomy though.....
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:32   #68
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Don’t remember the list of laws in the bible. But I am pretty shore they lacked traffic and torts law.
I think there were similar laws, but can you be specific about anything substantial, that has helped people?
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:33   #69
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Well, Gwalch, the only one I can think of is in Minnesota a person may not cross state lines with a duck atop his head.

It may be in Deuteronomy though.....
I think Zule was bad about doing that...
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:40   #70
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
I think there were similar laws, but can you be specific about anything substantial, that has helped people?
Well less funny then the others we do outlaw slavery, remove silly restrictions on interest, and have child pornography laws. not to mention there are lots of bad laws in the bible we wisely do not fallow.

Last edited by AlexHassin; 09-13-2011 at 12:41.. Reason: more info
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:44   #71
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The NC House has decided to let voters decide next May as to whether or not they want to add a provision to the state constitution that defines marriage between one man and one woman.

I was just curious as to whether or not your state has a similar provision in your states constitution?

http://www.witn.com/home/headlines/129638638.html
Even voters in California of all places shot down gay marriage. I say let the voters vote on it, and the issue will die.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:46   #72
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Well less funny then the others we do outlaw slavery, remove silly restrictions on interest, and have child pornography laws. not to mention there are lots of bad laws in the bible we wisely do not fallow.
I'm sorry, I can't understand what this gibberish has to do with the question I asked. Could you rephrase it?
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Old 09-13-2011, 13:14   #73
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Even voters in California of all places shot down gay marriage. I say let the voters vote on it, and the issue will die.
That is what I found interesting. I wasn't even aware that it was being discussed in Raleigh, but I think it is going to get heated as the day to vote nears.

Another thing I find surprising is the amount of people on here that assume all people who oppose gay marriage are "religious zealots". That's like saying all people who support gay marriage are gay.

Last edited by Calico Jack; 09-13-2011 at 13:30..
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Old 09-13-2011, 13:27   #74
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I am saying that it is immoral to restrict someone's rights based on their sexual orientation.

And I am saying that it is immoral for a religious zealot to attempt to force his/her beliefs on others.

Is that what you meant?

Precisley, but ultimatley says who? Why is it immoral for a "religious zealot" to attempt to "force" his or her beliefs. Also, is that not what you are also doing, attempting through force of government to push your moral belief system by saying the "religious zealot" is not allowed to bring thier morality to the table of public discourse, but you are?
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Old 09-13-2011, 14:54   #75
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Even voters in California of all places shot down gay marriage. I say let the voters vote on it, and the issue will die.
Fine then lets put everything on the table for voters to vote lets start with Gun issues(thats has about the same break down as gay marriages 75% aginst and 25% for).Why is it anybody business what People do if its not physically harming Anybody else? Its not!!!!
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Old 09-13-2011, 15:06   #76
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That is what I found interesting. I wasn't even aware that it was being discussed in Raleigh, but I think it is going to get heated as the day to vote nears.

Another thing I find surprising is the amount of people on here that assume all people who oppose gay marriage are "religious zealots". That's like saying all people who support gay marriage are gay.
People assumed it was white christian conservatives, but a Lot of Catholic Latino and Black Baptist that usually vote democrat in California oppose gay marriage.

Last edited by Bilbo Bagins; 09-13-2011 at 15:08..
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Old 09-13-2011, 15:12   #77
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Originally Posted by gwalchmai View Post
I'm sorry, I can't understand what this gibberish has to do with the question I asked. Could you rephrase it?
Answering your question, we outlaw slavery, and have child pornography laws. As far as I remember form my one reading of the bible, both are things the bible does not have laws on. iirc the bible has rules on how to treat your slaves.
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Old 09-13-2011, 15:12   #78
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The glass houses thing was likely referring to seeing the speck in a brother's eye rather than the beam, but the context is basically the same.

The fact that we are all sinners and should not judge is a basic foundation; because we are sinners, we do.
Homosexuality is a sin of choice. You may have been born that way, but like many facets of the human psyche, it is a sin only when acted upon.
I believe if you accept Jesus as your Savior, no matter what sin you have committed, you will be forgiven.

I don't know if transcribers want the Bible to change- who knows, maybe they hated their jobs like a lot of us do. I do know that King James had a bunch of folks doing the transcription in order to reflect his views as they aligned with the Church of England.
Humans interpret the Bible in so many ways, in my mind, you do as best you can, only God knows the absolute Truth, which can indeed differ from divinely inspired writings due to the machinations of human error, concious or not.
I don't believe arsenokoites was used to describe homosexuality the preference, I think it was used to describe and condemn the acting upon the feelings, lumping sins of the flesh along with thievery, murder, etc.
Is there any sins that are not a choice? Also could you(general nothing I say or have said is pointed toward you.Im just debating my side) please tell me what sin is worse than the other. My belief is a that they are all equal lie=Murder=homosexuality.

My take on the bible that is in print right now is its contaminated. there was a king that had his say. You had the catholic church (some how they are uber rich) that said let me see this bible (quickly pulls out hand axe)
Wack!!! (hands scribe back half the original) Go publish that half the rest makes the church look bad.

I dont think it matters if they are born that way or its a choice. Some people do, So i have another question if they were born that way then with all reason God himself made a mistake? Remember that We all were created in his image. So remember if you are against gay marriage there is a chance you are saying God screwed up.
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Old 09-13-2011, 15:17   #79
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God is absolutely man's worst invention.
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Old 09-13-2011, 15:24   #80
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Ok I am an American white guy, but I want to call myself as a negro or African-American because I want to be on par with black people. Does it make sense to you? No way! You are doing this in the same way with the gay marriage.

The marriage is between a man and a woman and nothing else. Sorry.

I will support for the civil union but I won't support gay marriage. If those gay people want to get “married” then it is better for them to move out of this country. We simply don't need them and their issues.

If everyone on this earth is gay and then the human beings will come to end. We already knows that the gay act is abhor thing to do. However, some people wants to sin so I gave them a chance to get “married” under the civil union, but they don’t like “Civil Union” and they want get married under “gay marriage” definition. Sorry get out of our land.
Thanks for debating with opinions and emotions and not facts you showed no facts in this at all.

You actually proved my point. You hear(read) people all the time how its not fair to be a white male, So in your example it does make sense to want to be on par with them.

What about womens rights they wanted to be equal so they stood up and got it. Black rights same story. So where does it not make sense to want to be equal?

The same old line if you dont like it get out of our country. SOME ONE ELSE ALL READY STATED IF YOU DONT LIKE FREEDOM IN AMERICA YOU A JUST AS WELCOME TO LEAVE!
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