[RichardB]

Since some are using the Bible as justification it raises the question that if the state defines marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman it is contrary to the scripture which show very blessed men with many wives and concubines?

Or are we only cite the parts of the bible that are popular NOW? I.e. I won't murder but I will eat pork and forbidden seafood. Someone told me there are actually about 600 Commandments, not 10.

[Brucev]

Originally Posted by RichardB

Since some are using the Bible as justification it raises the question that if the state defines marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman it is contrary to the scripture which show very blessed men with many wives and concubines?

Or are we only cite the parts of the bible that are popular NOW? I.e. I won't murder but I will eat pork and forbidden seafood. Someone told me there are actually about 600 Commandments, not 10.

I'm fine with interpreting the Bible from a evangelical perspective. If that doesn't well suit others, let them convert. Applying that perspective to matters of the state is fine with me. I'm cool with it. If that chafes the neck of someone who does not share that perspective, well they can always use some Vaseline.

[GLWyandotte]

Originally Posted by RichardB

Since some are using the Bible as justification it raises the question that if the state defines marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman it is contrary to the scripture which show very blessed men with many wives and concubines?

Or are we only cite the parts of the bible that are popular NOW? I.e. I won't murder but I will eat pork and forbidden seafood. Someone told me there are actually about 600 Commandments, not 10.

I'll try and keep this brief-
The Old Testament, which was admin'd by Levitical Priests was superceeded by The New Covenent, when Jesus led by Messianic Rule.
There was reason to change to the New Covenant in that there were faults found in the OT. Specifically God proclaimed the slaves led out of Egypt did not keep within the Lord's Law.
A good place to start is Hebrews 8:7-13

If you (generally, not personally) have trouble with believeing in Jesus, there is an excellent book entitled The Case For Christ by I believe Lee Strobel.
It is from the perpective of an investigative journalist trying to disprove Christ's existance.

[AlexHassin]

Originally Posted by Brucev

I'm fine with interpreting the Bible from a evangelical perspective. If that doesn't well suit others, let them convert. Applying that perspective to matters of the state is fine with me. I'm cool with it. If that chafes the neck of someone who does not share that perspective, well they can always use some Vaseline.

i believe there was some group recently that wanted to apply a holy books beliefs on a state. i think they flew some planes into some stuff, then killed some people. Yeah wanting to inflict religious rules on society is great isn’t it. look how great all the theocracies are.
.

[Brucev]

Originally Posted by AlexHassin

i believe there was some group recently that wanted to apply a holy books beliefs on a state. i think they flew some planes into some stuff, then killed some people. Yeah wanting to inflict religious rules on society is great isn’t it. look how great all the theocracies are.
.

Ah yes... the religion of "piece..." i.e., those faithful who bomb people, cut off people's heads, shoot people, throw acid on the faces of women who dare to (horrors) drive cars, etc. Yes... such fine people. Supposedly there are those of that faith who don't do vests, etc. Maybe you've met some.

This nation was founded on a broad Judeo-Christian ethic. That ethic was and is not fundamentalism. It also was and is not libertarianism. As inconvenient as that might be to post-modern pagans, those are the facts. Now fact can be hard things. So it is understandable that devoted pagan, etc. will feel chafed. Vaseline helps.

A national perspective shaped by and predicated upon that broad Judeo-Christian is best for America. If some find that objectionable, there are plenty of options elsewhere.

[GLWyandotte]

Originally Posted by Brucev

Ah yes... the religion of "piece..." i.e., those faithful who bomb people, cut off people's heads, shoot people, throw acid on the faces of women who dare to (horrors) drive cars, etc. Yes... such fine people. Supposedly there are those of that faith who don't do vests, etc. Maybe you've met some.

This nation was founded on a broad Judeo-Christian ethic. That ethic was and is not fundamentalism. It also was and is not libertarianism. As inconvenient as that might be to post-modern pagans, those are the facts. Now fact can be hard things. So it is understandable that devoted pagan, etc. will feel chafed. Vaseline helps.

A national perspective shaped by and predicated upon that broad Judeo-Christian is best for America. If some find that objectionable, there are plenty of options elsewhere.

Careful Bruce, someone will bring up the crusades now...which of course is totally irrelevant to the founding of our country, but they always do.

[RichardB]

We should not forget that the founder's broad Judeo-Christian ethic allowed for the wholesale ethnic cleansing of the native population, slavery of black folks, religious persecution, industrial companies working men, women, and children in unsafe conditions in addition to the good stuff we like to brag about.

Yes, things in the USA have improved because the attitudes of people have changed even though the Scriptures have not.

Off the wall thought: Yesterday I passed a church which proclaimed their support of "Old Time Religion". What do you want to bet that if I show up on Sunday morning they will not have a Latin Mass circa 900 AD?

[AlexHassin]

Originally Posted by Brucev

Ah yes... the religion of "piece..." i.e., those faithful who bomb people, cut off people's heads, shoot people, throw acid on the faces of women who dare to (horrors) drive cars, etc. Yes... such fine people. Supposedly there are those of that faith who don't do vests, etc. Maybe you've met some.

This nation was founded on a broad Judeo-Christian ethic. That ethic was and is not fundamentalism. It also was and is not libertarianism. As inconvenient as that might be to post-modern pagans, those are the facts. Now fact can be hard things. So it is understandable that devoted pagan, etc. will feel chafed. Vaseline helps.

A national perspective shaped by and predicated upon that broad Judeo-Christian is best for America. If some find that objectionable, there are plenty of options elsewhere.

Just saying watch out who you become. Trying to make things ethical from you pov is one thing. Unfortunately its not unheard of for these organization to take it to far. We are a secular state, laws of petty religions should have no sway on the population. That is what America is about.
Not shore what the whole pagan thing is about but or who but I hold there religious beliefs as unlikely as yours.

[Gunhaver]

Originally Posted by Glock30Eric

Why they don't just accept "Civil Union" and end with it? They won't because they want to be on par with the straight people. Sorry they will never get to it. Sorry we gotta to be discrimination agaisnt gay, like or not then move to different country.

Compelling argument against gay marriage+ Proper spelling and grammar. Nary the two shall meet.

[Glock30Eric]

Originally Posted by Gunhaver

Compelling argument against gay marriage+ Proper spelling and grammar. Nary the two shall meet.

Thank you, professor English.


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[Gunhaver]

Originally Posted by Glock30Eric

Thank you, professor English.


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Ok, then lets look at the point of your message rather than how poorly it's written.

Really? Never gonna happen? Have you not seen the trend this country is headed in? This is a civil liberties issue which means that it will go through one way or another. It will be voted on and passed where it will pass and where it doesn't pass the courts will eventually find the ban unconstitutional. Do you know how much money the gay community has and how serious this issue is to them? Are gays more or less accepted now than say 30 years ago? Have you ever seen a trend like that reverse itself? Then you had to go and throw in a good old "Yall kin just get out of Merica if you don't like it!" Do you have any idea how guys like you sound outside of the bass boat?

[Glock30Eric]

Originally Posted by Gunhaver

Ok, then lets look at the point of your message rather than how poorly it's written.

Really? Never gonna happen? Have you not seen the trend this country is headed in? This is a civil liberties issue which means that it will go through one way or another. It will be voted on and passed where it will pass and where it doesn't pass the courts will eventually find the ban unconstitutional. Do you know how much money the gay community has and how serious this issue is to them? Are gays more or less accepted now than say 30 years ago? Have you ever seen a trend like that reverse itself? Then you had to go and throw in a good old "Yall kin just get out of Merica if you don't like it!" Do you have any idea how guys like you sound outside of the bass boat?

The marriage wasn't in the government till around 1920s. It shouldn't be there because it is related to the church's business since it came from the Bible.

The gay marriage has do nothing with the government, so they shouldn't be there. People want to do that for tax purpose, frame, and other things. They could be happy without getting a "gay" marriage. Soon we will have to make a new law for the "gay" divorce which it is a completely silly law.

My English isn't that good but st least you understand me. I'm working to improve my English.

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[RichardB]

[QUOTE=GLWyandotte;17920552]I'll try and keep this brief-
The Old Testament, which was admin'd by Levitical Priests was superceeded by The New Covenent, when Jesus led by Messianic Rule.
There was reason to change to the New Covenant in that there were faults found in the OT. Specifically God proclaimed the slaves led out of Egypt did not keep within the Lord's Law.
A good place to start is Hebrews 8:7-13.....

If the Covenant was changed from the Levitical Laws to Jesus' simple message of "Love ye one another" then are all the 1000s of rigid "thou shalt nots" in the Old Testament also superceded? Is the only requirement now to believe and demonstrate that belief by acts of charity and love for the other folks on the planet? It seems to me that living the "loving life" would preclude many of the "Thou shall nots" from happening.

[Gunhaver]

Originally Posted by Glock30Eric

The marriage wasn't in the government till around 1920s. It shouldn't be there because it is related to the church's business since it came from the Bible.

The gay marriage has do nothing with the government, so they shouldn't be there. People want to do that for tax purpose, frame, and other things. They could be happy without getting a "gay" marriage. Soon we will have to make a new law for the "gay" divorce which it is a completely silly law.

My English isn't that good but st least you understand me. I'm working to improve my English.

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But government is in it and if you know anything about our government it should be that once they get into something they never get out. Marriage is the legal key to a whole lot of government benefits that don't automatically come from same sex unions as much as many will claim they're the same thing. Here's a list,
http://gaylife.about.com/od/samesexm...a/benefits.htm

So when you're legally married and all states recognize that then what you're entitled to under numerous circumstances is very clear and established.
To argue that government should get out of marriage is to basically say that nobody should get those benefits. To argue that LGBT should just be happy with civil unions is to basically say that their relationship is not as good as your relationship so they should have to jump through extra hoops to get what they can and just deal with what they can't get.

[Brucev]

Originally Posted by AlexHassin

i believe there was some group recently that wanted to apply a holy books beliefs on a state. i think they flew some planes into some stuff, then killed some people. Yeah wanting to inflict religious rules on society is great isn’t it. look how great all the theocracies are.
.

Let's be specific. A bunch of *******s killed thousands of Americans because of their hatred for America. Their brave leader of course hid in a cave while they gave their lives for him. There is no evidence that that now dead leader acted on any religious principle, muslim or otherwise. If you are not happy with Christian principles shaping our nation and its laws... emigrate. There are plenty of pagan nations from which to choose.

[Brucev]

Originally Posted by AlexHassin

Just saying watch out who you become. Trying to make things ethical from you pov is one thing. Unfortunately its not unheard of for these organization to take it to far. We are a secular state, laws of petty religions should have no sway on the population. That is what America is about.
Not shore what the whole pagan thing is about but or who but I hold there religious beliefs as unlikely as yours.

What you hold is of no concern to me. I conduct myself according to what I consider right. That is shaped by my Christian beliefs. If that causes you conflict, then you can adapt yourself.

[NEOH212]

Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr

God already did.

He made Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve!

This.

[runcible68]

I want the government out of my gun closet. I also want them the hell out of my bedroom and my wife's ******. We want the government out of our lives, but these "social conservatives" want to be in certain parts of it - usually anything to do with genitalia. Obama is going to win if the GOP's held hostage to the religious right's agenda.


Pro-gun, pro-gay marriage, pro-contraception, pro-choice and pro-gays in the military!

[auto-5]

Originally Posted by NEOH212

This.

Go back and read Matthew 7:1-5

[Gunhaver]

Originally Posted by Brucev

If you are not happy with Christian principles shaping our nation and its laws... emigrate. There are plenty of pagan nations from which to choose.

It's cute how you speak like you're winning.

Christian principles are not shaping this nation. Not even close. When what Christians want interferes with others rights those wants are being taken less and less seriously each year as more and more people either decide not to be the loud mouthed intrusive whackaloon type Christian or just turn away from it altogether. That's where we're headed, that's the trend. You may be delusional enough to think it isn't that way or that it might turn around but have fun with that.

The whole, "If yall don't like it you kin jus git out of my country" spiel has been the impotent battle cry of disgruntled social conservatives for decades. Guess what? Nobody's getting out. They're changing "your county's" government to suit them and they're doing it very effectively with help from people like you who spout drivel about pagans and gays and atheists and anyone else who's freedom of choice really pisses them off. Keep up the good work sir, you're helping more than you'll ever be capable of comprehending.

[auto-5]

Originally Posted by Gunhaver

It's cute how you speak like you're winning.

Christian principles are not shaping this nation. Not even close. When what Christians want interferes with others rights those wants are being taken less and less seriously each year as more and more people either decide not to be the loud mouthed intrusive whackaloon type Christian or just turn away from it altogether. That's where we're headed, that's the trend. You may be delusional enough to think it isn't that way or that it might turn around but have fun with that.

The whole, "If yall don't like it you kin jus git out of my country" spiel has been the impotent battle cry of disgruntled social conservatives for decades. Guess what? Nobody's getting out. They're changing "your county's" government to suit them and they're doing it very effectively with help from people like you who spout drivel about pagans and gays and atheists and anyone else who's freedom of choice really pisses them off. Keep up the good work sir, you're helping more than you'll ever be capable of comprehending.

The kicker is it is not even a christian value. Go back and read the Nicene Creed. It doesn't even mention marriage nore is his view of marriage agreed with between churches.

Just because he values a school of thought and calls himself a christian doesn't make something a christian value.

[SDDL-UP]

Govenment can do whatever it wants! If you're looking to government to define right and wrong, you are looking in the wrong place! Government at all levels is corrupt, bloated, and self serving. Why would anyone look to government for "justification"?

[Natty]

The Northern/Union states of Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, and Vermont, plus the Capital of the Union, Washington DC, have embraced and allowed gay marriage.

Every one of these states invaded the South during the Civil War.

Not a single former Confederate state has allowed this biblical abomination.

No wonder some Yankee soldiers walked funny.

Northern states and Yankee sympathizers must be very proud of gay marriage.

[Gunhaver]

Originally Posted by Natty

The Northern/Union states of Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, and Vermont, plus the Capital of the Union, Washington DC, have embraced and allowed gay marriage.

Every one of these states invaded the South during the Civil War.

Not a single former Confederate state has allowed this biblical abomination.

No wonder some Yankee soldiers walked funny.

Northern states and Yankee sympathizers must be very proud of gay marriage.

And yet the south still lost.
Guess that settles the gays in combat debate.

[Brucev]

Originally Posted by auto-5

The kicker is it is not even a christian value. Go back and read the Nicene Creed. It doesn't even mention marriage nore is his view of marriage agreed with between churches.

Just because he values a school of thought and calls himself a christian doesn't make something a christian value.

Like it or not, Scripture condemns without exception homosexuality. At no point is it every in any way affirmed. This is the uniform witness of Scripture. As to creeds, they are merely the formulations of men, useful but subordinate to Scripture. As to what local churches or larger denominations might hold on a matter, their positions may be useful as the creeds they develop. But they stand in the light of Scripture and are without any authority except as they affirm Scripture. If they speak contrary to Scripture, they are in error and are to be condemned for their error. They may call their decisions/positions christian, but that does not make their positions christian.