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Old Yesterday, 12:42   #1
Flintlocker
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Bundy is a lawbreaker, not a hero

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion...ution.html.csp


First Published Apr 15 2014 04:30 pm • Updated 59 minutes ago

Cliven Bundy and his ragtag band of armed supporters forced the federal government to back down as the roundup of Bundy cattle was called off and the bovines returned to the Nevada rancher.

Some declared victory and hailed the outcome a clear blow against tyranny and a win for freedom.

Hardly. The only winner in this was a scofflaw who has twice lost in the courts for running cattle where they don’t belong and skipping out on grazing fees. Some 20,000 ranchers in Western states abide by BLM regulations, so what makes Bundy special?

What makes Bundy special is the army of self-styled patriots who rallied to his ranch with their guns and grudges. If the government hadn’t acted to defuse the situation by backing off and letting Bundy have his win, we might have witnessed Americans shooting Americans over a few cows and a specious interpretation of the Second Amendment and private property rights.

Emboldened by their apparent victory, the fringe is gearing up to employ the same tactics elsewhere, convinced their gun-toting intimidation is what the Founding Fathers intended. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the sum total of their understanding of the Constitution fits on an NRA bumper sticker.

The Constitution is actually very clear on the government’s obligation to enforce the law, as well as its explicit duty to put down insurrection. The Tea Party history of America skips right over 1794, when George Washington raised an army and marched on people who threatened government officials and refused to pay taxes. The "Whiskey Rebellion" fizzled at the show of federal force.

Thanks to President Washington’s decisiveness, the Constitutional United States of America under the new Constitution succeeded where the Articles of Confederation, with its emphasis on states rights and powerless central government, had failed. No one voted for the armed rabble camped in Bundy’s yard. When some manage to avoid justice by extralegal means, the rule of law is weakened for all Americans.

The victory on Bundy’s ranch, backed as it was by the threat of violence, is a danger to the peaceful functioning of a civil society. Swagger and bombast shouldn’t become the American way. The government was right to back down to avoid possible bloodshed, but it should employ other means to see that Bundy doesn’t profit from his lawlessness.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
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Old Yesterday, 12:54   #2
jeanderson
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A left-wing opinion piece from a left-wing paper. I don't disagree that Bundy is legally in the wrong, but I don't like it when the leftist media uses it as an opportunity to go off on pro-2A folks with s***t like this...
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Emboldened by their apparent victory, the fringe is gearing up to employ the same tactics elsewhere, convinced their gun-toting intimidation is what the Founding Fathers intended. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the sum total of their understanding of the Constitution fits on an NRA bumper sticker.
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Old Yesterday, 12:56   #3
RussP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintlocker View Post
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion...ution.html.csp


First Published Apr 15 2014 04:30 pm • Updated 59 minutes ago

... The Constitution is actually very clear on the government’s obligation to enforce the law...
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Old Yesterday, 12:57   #4
SGT HATRED
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The Constitution is actually very clear on the government’s obligation to enforce the law
Like illegal immigration? And pot? And segments of the ACA? Along with so many others?
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Old Yesterday, 13:07   #5
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I don't doubt the feds will come back and stomp bundy into the ground, that's the new America. If he was an illegal on this land doing the same thing the feds would have never touched him.
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Old Yesterday, 14:04   #6
SJ 40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flintlocker View Post
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/opinion...ution.html.csp


First Published Apr 15 2014 04:30 pm • Updated 59 minutes ago

Cliven Bundy and his ragtag band of armed supporters forced the federal government to back down as the roundup of Bundy cattle was called off and the bovines returned to the Nevada rancher.

Some declared victory and hailed the outcome a clear blow against tyranny and a win for freedom.

Hardly. The only winner in this was a scofflaw who has twice lost in the courts for running cattle where they don’t belong and skipping out on grazing fees. Some 20,000 ranchers in Western states abide by BLM regulations, so what makes Bundy special?

What makes Bundy special is the army of self-styled patriots who rallied to his ranch with their guns and grudges. If the government hadn’t acted to defuse the situation by backing off and letting Bundy have his win, we might have witnessed Americans shooting Americans over a few cows and a specious interpretation of the Second Amendment and private property rights.

Emboldened by their apparent victory, the fringe is gearing up to employ the same tactics elsewhere, convinced their gun-toting intimidation is what the Founding Fathers intended. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the sum total of their understanding of the Constitution fits on an NRA bumper sticker.

The Constitution is actually very clear on the government’s obligation to enforce the law, as well as its explicit duty to put down insurrection. The Tea Party history of America skips right over 1794, when George Washington raised an army and marched on people who threatened government officials and refused to pay taxes. The "Whiskey Rebellion" fizzled at the show of federal force.

Thanks to President Washington’s decisiveness, the Constitutional United States of America under the new Constitution succeeded where the Articles of Confederation, with its emphasis on states rights and powerless central government, had failed. No one voted for the armed rabble camped in Bundy’s yard. When some manage to avoid justice by extralegal means, the rule of law is weakened for all Americans.

The victory on Bundy’s ranch, backed as it was by the threat of violence, is a danger to the peaceful functioning of a civil society. Swagger and bombast shouldn’t become the American way. The government was right to back down to avoid possible bloodshed, but it should employ other means to see that Bundy doesn’t profit from his lawlessness.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff
The Constitution Also speaks to what can be land for public use,just two things Courts and Military Forts.

My thought is that the land the Bundy cattle are grazing on is neither. SJ 40
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Old Yesterday, 14:09   #7
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Flintlocker is a wonderful barometer. If he advocates for something or likes something, then the opposite is usually true and based in reality. Keep up the useful delusions.
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Old Yesterday, 15:02   #8
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Many "conservative" GTers would agree with the Lefties who share this view.
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Gay married couples should be able to defend their tax free pot fields with fully automatic, suppressed SBR AR-15s.....with 100 round Beta mags.
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Old Yesterday, 15:12   #9
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Originally Posted by EOS View Post
Many "conservative" GTers would agree with the Lefties who share this view.
Well, set us straight, won't you, its not Bundy's land, is it your contention that chaos prevail here, and that we all just succumb to a literal interpretation of survival of the fittest, and that men such as Cliven Bundy just take what they want, where they want, when they want?

As for the OP's link, its more good evidence as to why he should be banned from this site, he has repeatedly posted anti-gun drivel from anti-gun sources, the OP is anti-gun, and its an insult to everyone here enriching the owner of this site, that he is!

Last edited by Direwolf131; Yesterday at 15:13..
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Old Yesterday, 15:26   #10
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The premis of truth leads to the usual retarded leap of logic from the left.
Too bad they can't just rely on the basic truth, it's just not enough validation for the insecure weak minds.
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Old Yesterday, 15:45   #11
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Originally Posted by Direwolf131 View Post
Well, set us straight, won't you, its not Bundy's land, is it your contention that chaos prevail here, and that we all just succumb to a literal interpretation of survival of the fittest, and that men such as Cliven Bundy just take what they want, where they want, when they want?

As for the OP's link, its more good evidence as to why he should be banned from this site, he has repeatedly posted anti-gun drivel from anti-gun sources, the OP is anti-gun, and its an insult to everyone here enriching the owner of this site, that he is!
Its not Bundy's land, its not my land, its not your land. It's not Fedzilla's land either. Its not costing taxpayers a dime to have Bundy's cows graze it. Something that has been happening long before BLM was established.

This is just a chance for jackbooted ninja psychopaths to come out and show off their toys and collect some plunder while their at it. Did Bundy's cows eating grass for the last 30+ years cost the taxpayers the millions they are demanding? I doubt it. Has Bundy's cows caused millions of dollars of damage to the land?

Is it worth a massacre and killing people? Some cows eating grass? Is that endangered "turtle" worth it?

You and the Lefties believe in a forceful, jackbooted, government. And I don't. If Bundy was grazing cows on private land without permission, then I'd see your point.
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Gay married couples should be able to defend their tax free pot fields with fully automatic, suppressed SBR AR-15s.....with 100 round Beta mags.
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Old Yesterday, 15:49   #12
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Many many law breakers are heros
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Old Yesterday, 15:53   #13
mj9mm
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this country was born out lawbreakers


I can see myself standing with Bundy in this case, let the gov go after law breakers who are not contributing to our country
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Old Yesterday, 16:20   #14
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This situation was handled badly by both sides IMO.

I'm just thankful that someone on the government side had the good judgment to "stand down" and also that the folks on the other side also kept their cool.

Let the court system do it's job.
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Old Yesterday, 16:21   #15
Direwolf131
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Originally Posted by EOS View Post
Its not Bundy's land, its not my land, its not your land. It's not Fedzilla's land either. Its not costing taxpayers a dime to have Bundy's cows graze it. Something that has been happening long before BLM was established.

This is just a chance for jackbooted ninja psychopaths to come out and show off their toys and collect some plunder while their at it. Did Bundy's cows eating grass for the last 30+ years cost the taxpayers the millions they are demanding? I doubt it. Has Bundy's cows caused millions of dollars of damage to the land?

Is it worth a massacre and killing people? Some cows eating grass? Is that endangered "turtle" worth it?

You and the Lefties believe in a forceful, jackbooted, government. And I don't. If Bundy was grazing cows on private land without permission, then I'd see your point.
This is not a very solid argument for your position, the problem is that the land in question is under ownership, whether it be the state of Nevada or the US taxpayer is open to some debate, what is not open to any debate is that it is not Mr Bundy's parcel!

What if you owned 5,000 acres, and lets say for a hundred years you farmed all but 100 acres of it, then one day Mr Bundy, or some other such fellow, decided that you don't use it, so he will! He then proceeds to put your unused property to his personal use, whats more, upon your discovery of his industry upon your lawful property, he refuses to compensate you for said use, the logic being it sat unused for a hundred years, it was wasted!

What liberals are latching onto here is not the same thing, they are seemingly not concerned with property rights as they are with the Reids cover story for evicting Mr Bundy, the desert whatever the hell it is. I could care less about some turtle, but I am very concerned with the enforcement of the law, and Mr Bundy is clearly in violation of it, whats more, two different courts have stated exactly that.
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Old Yesterday, 16:35   #16
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All of those law abiding NY and CT residents that refused to register their semis are now lawbreakers too...... so your point?
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Old Yesterday, 16:36   #17
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Change the Law

Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyGuy View Post
This situation was handled badly by both sides IMO.

I'm just thankful that someone on the government side had the good judgment to "stand down" and also that the folks on the other side also kept their cool.

Let the court system do it's job.
In spite of the connection to Harry Reid's interests, and the over reaction of the Feds, Bundy is still in the wrong. He is breaking the law. It you don't like the law, change it. Thousands of other ranchers are holding their noses and paying the lease fees. If they all got together and got some Congressional support, they might be able to change it. We can't ignore laws we don't like no matter who we are (unless you're the President who can chose which laws to enforce and those to ignore).
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Old Yesterday, 16:41   #18
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Originally Posted by Direwolf131 View Post
This is not a very solid argument for your position, the problem is that the land in question is under ownership, whether it be the state of Nevada or the US taxpayer is open to some debate, what is not open to any debate is that it is not Mr Bundy's parcel!



What liberals are latching onto here is not the same thing, they are seemingly not concerned with property rights as they are with the Reids cover story for evicting Mr Bundy, the desert whatever the hell it is. I could care less about some turtle, but I am very concerned with the enforcement of the law, and Mr Bundy is clearly in violation of it, whats more, two different courts have stated exactly that.
So, enforce "the law" at all costs. Even if its basis is completely deranged and a lot of innocent non-violent people could be killed. Frankly, I'm not seeing a lot of logical thinking on your part.

Secondly, there is no such thing as public property, especially in this case. Collective ownership is nonsense.It's a way for the Feds to extract money from taxpayers. The land isn't being used by "taxpayers" or citizens" as a location for community functions. Its a vacant field with grass. The Feds would never let "the public" build anything on the land anyway. They want it so Harry Reid can make money.


Now to address this:
Quote:
What if you owned 5,000 acres, and lets say for a hundred years you farmed all but 100 acres of it, then one day Mr Bundy, or some other such fellow, decided that you don't use it, so he will! He then proceeds to put your unused property to his personal use, whats more, upon your discovery of his industry upon your lawful property, he refuses to compensate you for said use, the logic being it sat unused for a hundred years, it was wasted!

In that case it would be private land. And in that case, the trespasser should be removed.

Again, public land is nonsense. This is like the Leftys who said you should thank .gov becuase you make money off the roads. Its utter nonsense.

"Bundy!, you didn't build that, BLM did. Now pay tribute or we kill you."
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Gay married couples should be able to defend their tax free pot fields with fully automatic, suppressed SBR AR-15s.....with 100 round Beta mags.

Last edited by EOS; Yesterday at 16:41..
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Old Yesterday, 16:52   #19
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How about the BLM hiring Cowboys to shoot 2 of his bulls 5 times and wrecking the water troughs and fencing on their way out? I think the whole thing is bizzare.
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Old Yesterday, 16:54   #20
platform
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Originally Posted by HarleyGuy View Post
This situation was handled badly by both sides IMO.

......

Let the court system do it's job.
http://www.archives.gov/education/lessons/rosa-parks/
Quote:
In police custody, Mrs. Parks was booked, fingerprinted, and briefly incarcerated. The police report shows that she was charged with "refusing to obey orders of bus driver.
I am not trying to equate the Bundy situation, to the courage and maturity that Mrs Parks have shown. I do not think they have even slightest equality.

However, just wanted to show that generalizing an argument into 'Bundy is criminal and the law enforcement and courts should 'just take care of it' -- is not universal truth, there is place for civil disobedience somewhere in a history of any country.

May be this will lead to review of laws that guard the limits of Federal property ownership, and the level of force the police can apply when enforcing these specific laws.

I personally do not think that every law must allow for the same level of enforcement.

I am not saying that laws must be broken consistently, but limiting power of enforcement for certain type of laws -- should allow the free society 'react to the politician's will' -- even, after the fact

In other words, voting booth cannot be the only place where civilized society can decide on the criminal laws...

Perhaps that's a formula, if adapted, will allow us to continuously avoid civil unrests.

Last edited by platform; Yesterday at 17:03..
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Old Yesterday, 17:34   #21
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Originally Posted by eb07 View Post
All of those law abiding NY and CT residents that refused to register their semis are now lawbreakers too...... so your point?
Don't let me stop you from descending into idiocy, you are virtually embracing anarchy. Have at it, see where it takes you too.
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Old Yesterday, 17:43   #22
Direwolf131
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Now to address this:
Quote:
What if you owned 5,000 acres, and lets say for a hundred years you farmed all but 100 acres of it, then one day Mr Bundy, or some other such fellow, decided that you don't use it, so he will! He then proceeds to put your unused property to his personal use, whats more, upon your discovery of his industry upon your lawful property, he refuses to compensate you for said use, the logic being it sat unused for a hundred years, it was wasted!

In that case it would be private land. And in that case, the trespasser should be removed.

Again, public land is nonsense. This is like the Leftys who said you should thank .gov becuase you make money off the roads. Its utter nonsense.

"Bundy!, you didn't build that, BLM did. Now pay tribute or we kill you.
Now you're just being silly, public land is owned by the taxpayer, just because a party has property that abuts such land is no invitation to freely exploit it! Mr Bundy has lost two previous court cases, at some point society has a firm right to interdict his exploitation, in any manner appropriate to the task!

You, and more then few others here, are virtually proposing anarchy, or very nearly so! Either we have laws that we all agree to abide by, or we descend into chaos, and violence.
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Old Yesterday, 17:50   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Direwolf131 View Post
Now you're just being silly, public land is owned by the taxpayer, just because a party has property that abuts such land is no invitation to freely exploit it! Mr Bundy has lost two previous court cases, at some point society has a firm right to interdict his exploitation, in any manner appropriate to the task!

You, and more then few others here, are virtually proposing anarchy, or very nearly so! Either we have laws that we all agree to abide by, or we descend into chaos, and violence.
I'll just quote this and bow out of the discussion. Collectivist drivel like this makes me realize I'm pissing up a rope.

Quote:
chaos and violence
Who exactly showed up with guns threatening violence?
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Gay married couples should be able to defend their tax free pot fields with fully automatic, suppressed SBR AR-15s.....with 100 round Beta mags.

Last edited by EOS; Yesterday at 17:53..
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Old Yesterday, 17:56   #24
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Left wing trash from the same people who would cheer identical lawbreaking for a left-wing cause. Anonymous editorial with 0 credibility.
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Old Yesterday, 17:56   #25
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Originally Posted by Direwolf131 View Post
Don't let me stop you from descending into idiocy, you are virtually embracing anarchy. Have at it, see where it takes you too.
I don't see how I am embracing anarchy by pointing out how perfectly law abiding citizens are being classified as criminals one asinine law at a time. But when they day comes you too become a felon on a whim, please take a photo of you kneeling down to kiss your masters feet and be sure to post it on Facebook for all to see.

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