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Old 10-08-2014, 07:13   #1
Deputydave
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Rifle for prepping

We've had many conversations on what types of rifle to include in your preps. I'd like to start another, but with a specific focus.

What would your recommend to someone that is either new to prepping and/or new to rifles in general? This is to include someone that would like to have something but also has to be mindful of a budget. This would be a rifle that has the purpose of self defense.

To further clarify, this person has already (or is in the process of) covered more basic and fundamental aspects of prepping i.e. food, water, plan of action etc.

I always recommend of course a good shotgun and a .22 rifle, but for this particular discussion I'd like to focus on a rifle of larger caliber for self defense.

So with this in mind, what type of rifle would you recommend i.e. brand, caliber etc. And just as importantly, why do you recommend this option? If you have a ballpark price that would be helpful to include.

Appreciate you participation
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:24   #2
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My first thought is a nice AK47. Simple, tough, reliable. Magazines are cheap and plentiful as is the 7.62x39 ammo to feed it.

There are some good options for about $600 or less. Can't go wrong with an AK IMO.
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Old 10-08-2014, 07:47   #3
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I'd probably suggest a bolt gun in .308 with a quality scope. Available ammo, multi-purpose and big enough to take any game in North America.

Not the best for self defense but good for the beginning prepper on a budget.

If budget is not a problem, I'd suggest something along the line of an AR-10. All the advantages of the bolt gun with increased self defense capability.
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Old 10-08-2014, 08:06   #4
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AR15. Just about every LE department uses it, the military uses it, ammo might be scarce during hot political times, but during normal times it's widely available including big box stores to the internet. Parts and magazines are everywhere and for the most part 100% interchangeable. It's accurate, reliable, and good for deer sized game (debatable, but I've legally killed deer with it). Prices range from $800 on up. If you wanted you can also get a .22 conversion bolt and shoot .22LR through it.

I despise the AK and all the AK variants for lots of reasons, but I will agree our enemy's weapon of choice tends to cost less than our homegrown AR15. You get what you pay for in my opinion.
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Old 10-08-2014, 08:24   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain10mm View Post

I despise the AK and all the AK variants for lots of reasons, but I will agree our enemy's weapon of choice tends to cost less than our homegrown AR15. You get what you pay for in my opinion.


I'm not going to comment on this ridiculousness, as I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it in to a debate over which is better...

But I will say this... The AK is the perfect rifle for what the OP described.
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Old 10-08-2014, 08:55   #6
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Thoughts on an SKS? I personally have no experience with the AK or SKS style rifles (we used M16's when I was in the service and AR15's now with the agency). But from what limited (so far) research I've done, a lot of people like them. The basic thought I've seen so far is that they aren't noted in the long range accuracy department, but are reliable and stupid-simple to operate/maintain. Additionally they seem to be on the lower end of the $ spectrum.

Your thoughts on 'heck yeah' or 'hell no'?
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Old 10-08-2014, 09:17   #7
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Name one government agency that uses an AK as standard issue. I'm not talking as a training weapon, but standard issue. If it has such merit, someone somewhere must have adopted it. All the testing, accuracy, reliability, durability, even price as everyone states. It has nothing to do with keeping money in house either, law enforcement all of the US buys foreign made guns all the time, e.g. Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's, FN's... It couldn't be a price issue as the government is known for selecting the least expensive option...
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:06   #8
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Many good options. I would suggest building a spec. and then seeing what fits closest to the spec.

Some decision points.
1. There is budget and there is budget.
2. What kind of self defense are we talking about? Defending the range from indians is totally difference from defending the apartment from the gang bangers.
3. Will this person practice at all?
4. Small person vs. larger person
5. Will this be a bug out gun, or stay put gun
6. Each action has advantages. Semi-auto allows most people to shoot faster for accuracy than other actions. Bolt action works better in harsh environments and allows larger cartridges (458WM may be a decent personal protection cartridge in AK). Bolt action is also the BEST when it comes to true accuracy, but only in skilled hands. Straight pull is weaker than bolt action, but faster. Some people can be very fast with lever actions. Lever actions are not seen as tactical and more PC.
7. Specific environmental concerns? Sand, Surf, deep dark woods, in the city...? Assuming semi-auto, each platform has advantages and disadvantages.
8. Cost of ammo. 22LR, 9mm, 7.62x39, 12ga are the cheapest ammo per class right now.

Addtional criteria.
9. Optics
10. Suppressor.
11. Night vision/Thermal vision accessories.

PS> This being said, for someone just starting out..... Your suggestion of a pump actin shotgun and a 22 rifle are good starting points. IF they do nothing else, these should suffice for personal protection. IF they decide to get into it more, practice....they will make up their own mind of what they want.
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:32   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain10mm View Post
Name one government agency that uses an AK as standard issue. I'm not talking as a training weapon, but standard issue. If it has such merit, someone somewhere must have adopted it. All the testing, accuracy, reliability, durability, even price as everyone states. It has nothing to do with keeping money in house either, law enforcement all of the US buys foreign made guns all the time, e.g. Glocks, Sigs, Beretta's, FN's... It couldn't be a price issue as the government is known for selecting the least expensive option...
Here's a list of countries that use, or have used it, in their arsenal...

Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Angola
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Bangladesh
Belarus
Benin
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Botswana
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
People's Republic of China: Type 56 variant was used.
Comoros
Republic of the Congo
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Cuba
Djibouti
Egypt
Eritrea
Ethiopia
El Salvador
Finland: Rk 62, Rk 95 Tp.
Gabon
Gambia
Georgia:Replaced by the M4 carbine in 2008.
East Germany
Ghana
Greece: EKAM counter-terrorist unit of the Hellenic Police.
Guinea
Equatorial Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana
Hungary
India:Used by Force One.
Iran
Iraq
Ivory Coast
Kazakhstan
Kenya
North Korea: Type 56 and Type 58 variants were used.
Laos
Kuwait
Lebanon
Liberia
Libya
Macedonia
Madagascar
Mali
Malta: Type 56 variant.
Mauritania
Mexico
Moldova
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar: Used by the Myanmar Police Force (include the Chinese Type 56).
Namibia
Niger
Nigeria
Pakistan: Type 56 and AK-103 used.
Palestine
Peru
Philippines: Used by the Santiago City PNP.
Poland:[2] Replaced by AKM and kbs wz. 1996 Beryl.
Qatar
Rhodesia
Romania
Russia:[2] Replaced by the AK-74 since 1974.
Rwanda
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Sao Tome and Principe
Senegal
Serbia
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Slovenia
Somalia
South Africa: Used by the Special Forces Brigade.
Soviet Union: Adopted in 1949.
Sri Lanka: Type 56 variant.
Sudan
South Sudan
Suriname
Syria
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Togo
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
Dominican Republic
UAE
Uzbekistan
Vietnam: Type 56 variant was used extensively by the Viet Congo
Yemen
Yugoslavia
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Just because the US doesn't use it, doesn't mean it's junk.
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:33   #10
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AR15 type rifle with 2 magazines and 100 rounds of 5.56. Should go for less than $900.

If that is too much a Savage bolt gun in .308 or .223 with 20 rounds of ammo would work. Maybe ~$400?

Last edited by WT; 10-08-2014 at 10:40..
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:33   #11
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Dave,look at the safety on a sks.They are iffy.'08.
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:46   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amorican88 View Post
My first thought is a nice AK47. Simple, tough, reliable. Magazines are cheap and plentiful as is the 7.62x39 ammo to feed it.

There are some good options for about $600 or less. Can't go wrong with an AK IMO.
/thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post


I'm not going to comment on this ridiculousness, as I don't want to hijack this thread and turn it in to a debate over which is better...

But I will say this... The AK is the perfect rifle for what the OP described.
It's almost as if his question was formulated to get an AK suggested.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post

Just because the US doesn't use it, doesn't mean it's junk.
The US military hardly uses Glocks, but if this thread asked about a self-defense pistol, how many Beretta M92 variants would top the list?
.

Survival/Preparedness Forum

Last edited by ChuteTheMall; 10-08-2014 at 11:01..
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Old 10-08-2014, 10:59   #13
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:14   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshhtn View Post
Here's a list of countries that use, or have used it, in their arsenal...

Afghanistan
Albania
Algeria
Angola
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Bangladesh
Belarus
Benin
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Botswana
Bulgaria
Burkina Faso
Burundi
Cambodia
Cameroon
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Chile
People's Republic of China: Type 56 variant was used.
Comoros
Republic of the Congo
Democratic Republic of the Congo
Cuba
Djibouti
Egypt
Eritrea
Ethiopia
El Salvador
Finland: Rk 62, Rk 95 Tp.
Gabon
Gambia
Georgia:Replaced by the M4 carbine in 2008.
East Germany
Ghana
Greece: EKAM counter-terrorist unit of the Hellenic Police.
Guinea
Equatorial Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Guyana
Hungary
India:Used by Force One.
Iran
Iraq
Ivory Coast
Kazakhstan
Kenya
North Korea: Type 56 and Type 58 variants were used.
Laos
Kuwait
Lebanon
Liberia
Libya
Macedonia
Madagascar
Mali
Malta: Type 56 variant.
Mauritania
Mexico
Moldova
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar: Used by the Myanmar Police Force (include the Chinese Type 56).
Namibia
Niger
Nigeria
Pakistan: Type 56 and AK-103 used.
Palestine
Peru
Philippines: Used by the Santiago City PNP.
Poland:[2] Replaced by AKM and kbs wz. 1996 Beryl.
Qatar
Rhodesia
Romania
Russia:[2] Replaced by the AK-74 since 1974.
Rwanda
Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic
Sao Tome and Principe
Senegal
Serbia
Seychelles
Sierra Leone
Slovenia
Somalia
South Africa: Used by the Special Forces Brigade.
Soviet Union: Adopted in 1949.
Sri Lanka: Type 56 variant.
Sudan
South Sudan
Suriname
Syria
Tajikistan
Tanzania
Togo
Turkey
Turkmenistan
Uganda
Ukraine
Dominican Republic
UAE
Uzbekistan
Vietnam: Type 56 variant was used extensively by the Viet Congo
Yemen
Yugoslavia
Zambia
Zimbabwe

Just because the US doesn't use it, doesn't mean it's junk.
Thank you for enlightening me on world use of the AK. So you know how to use Google. Perhaps you can Google how many of those countries are 1st world and have the ability to pick whatever firearm they want, not just what's available on the black market or available because of political affiliations.
And perhaps I should have been more clear, and clear for the sake of the OP, who presumably lives in CONUS, what government agency in the US uses it - where we have a legitimate choice of firearms? I'd like to believe the US's testing, research, ballistic labs, etc. are superior to Zimbabwe's and we have the ability to choose what suits are needs based on multiple criteria, not just what can be bought on the black market.

I think the OP asked a legitimate question, I gave a legitimate answer based on my opinion and some facts about parts/ammo availably. I stand by that. My experience with an AK has been poor at best. I have yet to find or shoot any AK that functioned like they are renowned for and the selection of premium AK ammo. is dismal - it can be ordered, but seldom seen in stores. Attaching an optic is difficult, the front sight requires a tool to adjust, and the magazines have to be rocked into place. Not deal breakers by any means, but my experience indicates there are better choices. If we wander outside of the government arena, most three gunners, competition shooters, and hunters would also agree from what I've seen.

I'm not knocking the AK as a legitimate tool, it's just not the best tool in my opinion to fit the needs of the OP.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:23   #15
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Most of those African countries probably had a fn/fal first.'08.
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:34   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain10mm View Post
I stand by that. My experience with an AK has been poor at best.
Well, you're doing it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain10mm View Post
I have yet to find or shoot any AK that functioned like they are renowned for and the selection of premium AK ammo. is dismal - it can be ordered, but seldom seen in stores.
Why do you need premium ammo for SHTF self defense?
Unless you are worried about groundhogs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain10mm View Post
Attaching an optic is difficult, the front sight requires a tool to adjust, and the magazines have to be rocked into place. Not deal breakers by any means, but my experience indicates there are better choices.
Why do you need an optic for SHTF self defense?
Why can't you change mags? You're doing it wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mountain10mm View Post
If we wander outside of the government arena, most three gunners, competition shooters, and hunters would also agree from what I've seen.
Why did you wander into the government arena in the first place?

This isn't for gun games, target shooting, or squirrels.
This is for SHTF self defense. He already has a .22.

Survival/Preparedness Forum
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Old 10-08-2014, 11:47   #17
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Originally Posted by actionshooter10 View Post
I'd probably suggest a bolt gun in .308 with a quality scope. Available ammo, multi-purpose and big enough to take any game in North America.

Not the best for self defense but good for the beginning prepper on a budget.

If budget is not a problem, I'd suggest something along the line of an AR-10. All the advantages of the bolt gun with increased self defense capability.
Someone moving up from a .22 and getting into rifles, I generally always recommend a good bolt .308 and for all the reasons specified above. It is a great caliber to really learn how to shoot and is extremely capable of multiple applications. I agree too with AS about an AR10 but would also include the SCAR 17, FAL or HK 91 clone, and the Springfield M1A - all depending on budget and comfort with the various ergonomics.
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Old 10-08-2014, 12:11   #18
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budget for self defense ammo

Quote:
Originally Posted by 20South View Post
Someone moving up from a .22 and getting into rifles, I generally always recommend a good bolt .308 and for all the reasons specified above. It is a great caliber to really learn how to shoot and is extremely capable of multiple applications. I agree too with AS about an AR10 but would also include the SCAR 17, FAL or HK 91 clone, and the Springfield M1A - all depending on budget and comfort with the various ergonomics.
Those are wonderful choices for some purposes, and Walmart currently has ammo averaging about a dollar per round, in boxes of twenty. One shot, one kill for hunting and sniping.

But 7.62x39 ammo is currently available in quantities and priced under a quarter per round; grab a case of 1000 at a gunshow for $225.00 and practice a lot.

No optics, no reloading hobby, just SHTF self defense.

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Old 10-08-2014, 12:36   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuteTheMall View Post
Well, you're doing it wrong.



Why do you need premium ammo for SHTF self defense?
Unless you are worried about groundhogs.


Why do you need an optic for SHTF self defense?

Why can't you change mags? You're doing it wrong.



Why did you wander into the government arena in the first place?

This isn't for gun games, target shooting, or squirrels.
This is for SHTF self defense. He already has a .22.

Survival/Preparedness Forum
I'm sensing some peoples feathers got ruffled because I don't think an AK is uber awesome. It's my opinion. Are we not entitled to that on GT? Perhaps we can chill and talk facts about why or why not a rifle will or will not meet the OP's needs instead of the highly intellectual "you're doing it wrong" or "East Germany" uses it - oh which ceased to exist over two decades ago.


Do you put steel jacketed, FMJ, rounds in your concealed carry gun, oh which is 100% for self defense? The military carries FMJ because they have to, not by choice.
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Old 10-08-2014, 12:47   #20
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About any caliber built off the .308. In a bolt gun with iron sights and a hunting scope.
It will have to do duty as SD and hunting.
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