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Old 10-11-2011, 17:31   #26
Wolf Spyder
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Chucky2,

Welcome to Glock Talk. Welcome to the 10 Ring. I do feel bad that your in Illinois, just out side of Chicago... where it is not very firearms friendly.

I might be typical of most of the guys you will find on this forum, in that I have been around firearms most of my life. I started shooting when I was 6 years old. I used my father's .22 for Squirrel, and a .410 Single action for Rabbit before moving up to a .410 Pump. At age 10 or 11 I went Deer hunting with an Ithaca 37 in 20 Gauge. At age 13, 14 or so I moved up to the 12 Gauge for Rabbit and Deer. At about 14 or 15 years old I started Squirrel hunting with a compact M1911A1 chambered in .380 ACP. In the late 90's to early 2000's I pushed to have the rules changed here in Ohio so that the 10mm could be used to hunt White Tail Deer. The case length of the 10mm was only .998 and the ODNR stated that a handgun cartridge had to have a straight walled case of 1 inch or greater in order to be used for White Tail Deer. I presented published ballistics of several calibers and they removed the case length limitation. Easy as pie.

I have shot all the popular handgun calibers from .22 Short all the way out to the .44 Magnum. Over the years I have been given several different handguns and pistols as Birth Day gifts or Christmas gifts, but when I went to spend my own money, to purchase my own firearm, I bought a Glock 20. I am a huge 10mm fan.

I spend a lot of time talking to new shooters. Some times you can talk to a new shooter and it is very clear right from the start that this guy or gal should start small and work up to it. Then there are those new shooters who spend a few minutes with a semi-auto .22 and ask what else you got that is bigger and more fun. They grab for the .357 Magnum revolver and after a few minutes turn to you and repeat the question... what do you have that is bigger and more fun !! Everyone is different. My younger brother's wife (5'-2" or maybe less, I don't remember) went from a .22 semi-auto to his Glock 20 on the very first day. She loves it. She isn't strong enough to hold it out there for a full magazine worth of shooting, but she is very accurate and loves to shoot it more than any other handgun we have collectively.

To be honest I usually tell new shooters to buy a Glock 19 and shoot it till they're penny-less. I tell them to shoot the hell out of it. Get good, learn proper stance and trigger control. Then after they can hit what they're aiming at, every time, go buy the next handgun or long gun. I do this because they can walk into any Wal-mart and buy 9mm ammunition. I figure new shooters need to shoot more. So a firearm in a popular cartridge makes that all the easier.

My younger brother is 6'-5" and has big hands, like I do, so instead of buying a Glock 19 he went straight to the Glock 20. It fits his hand better, and he loves it, it was his Daily Carry pistol up until about a month ago when he replaced it with a Springfield M1911A1 EMP in 9mm. I personally think he will go back to the Glock 20... just because it is a much better cartridge. My youngest brother is 6' and has much less experience with handguns so he purchased a Glock 19 and is shooting the hell out of it. He has since added a Glock 17 and a bunch of magazines.

I would like to echo what another poster said in that the Glock 20, 21, 29, 30 are all chunky Glocks. They are wide, or thick... So make sure you can get a grip on it before you buy it.

Other than that, I would say go buy a Glock 20 (either regular or SF) and shoot the hell out of it.

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"Only large manly men and very dangerous mythical creatures can handle the raw power of the 10mm"
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Old 10-11-2011, 20:42   #27
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Come on over. We'll shoot a hundred rounds through the .454 Casull. The 10 will seem like a .22 after that.
Amen, brother!
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Old 10-13-2011, 02:04   #28
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Everyone,

Thank you for all the responses! I really didn't think I'd get near that many, I really appreciate all the feedback and advice!

Few comments back to the thread:

1.) Very good idea on going to the range and trying out some rentals. I had/have that idea myself. Got to take a basic pistol course, then I can go to about the only range around here with lots of rental options: MegaSports in Plainfield (or so I've found after lots of calling and asking around).
I was in the same boat as you a few years ago, I grew up with .22 and shot guns from scouts, but didn't know much beyond that. I took some great advice and tried out lots of weapons and rounds, but when I picked up the 10mm (had never heard of it before) things just clicked.

I'm not a big guy, so I was expecting the 10mm to be a bit too much for me, but I was actually surprised after checking it out and all the hype and the knowledge of why the FBI passed on the round, that the round was only marginally more snappy than a 40S&W. the first words out of my mouth were "that was it?". I think part of it is due to my Glock 20SF, as others have pointed out it is tough.

For me, the 10mm is the best so why settle? The Glock 20 is a great gun. I also own a 29SF for ccw. I'm hooked and I'm looking at getting a 10mm Kimber next, and possibly a S&W 500Mag X-frame after that. For fun, ya'know...
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Old 01-07-2013, 22:11   #29
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Well, update on my thread:

I finally was able to get in some time to go shooting with a bud. Instead of going to MegaSports, we went to GAT Guns in Dundee, IL. Nice place, but understandably swamped because of the recent school shooting.

They had a non-SF non-Gen4 G20C, a 21SF that others were using, and some a pretty good selection of other handguns. It was so crazy busy, we only shot two: G20C first, and then a XD-M 4.5" .45. We shot 180gr 10mm and 230gr .45, I can't remember what type.

Both the 10mm and .45 really seemed to feel about the same powerwise. Nothing either of us couldn't handle (I'm about 270 and mostly fat, he's about 230 good amount of muscle). All our shots were within 6-10 inches of where we were aiming; it was my first time really shooting a pistol (except for my one day training class with almost all .22) and I believe his first time as well.

Based on the above, I decided screw it, I'm done waiting and screwing around, I'm going to get a Gen4 G20. Found out about GSSF, sent in for the 2 year individual membership. Once I get my certificate, I'll bring it up to GAT and get/order my pistol; called GAT, they know about and honor the GSSF.

Also I ordered a 10mm to .40 KKM conversion barrel. I figure I'll get better with cheap .40 ammo and just have some 10mm stuff to have fun with and for home SD duty. I called KKM before ordering and they said the current barrel works fine in the Gen4.

That's about it...thank you all for the info and advice, I appreciate it!

Chuck
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Old 01-07-2013, 22:20   #30
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"21 carrier" nailed it in post #6. with most factory ammo being just slightly hotter than the .40 S&W I find that my G20sf is more comfortable than my G22Not really a problem at all.
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Old 01-08-2013, 13:18   #31
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I took my 14 year old to the range on Sunday to shoot his new 10-22 and I let him have a go with the G20sf. He kept everything on the 6inch shoot-n-c target at 15 yds with no problem. He ran 2 mags of Underwood ammo and wanted to keep shooting mine instead of the ruger. He's small for his age with small hands and he had no problem with the grip size or the recoil.
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Old 01-08-2013, 16:10   #32
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I would get the G20SF. I was in your position several years ago, and I got talked out of the G20SF. Everyone told me that it had too much recoil, it was a dead caliber, etc., etc., etc. I ended up going for the G21SF. Well, I was happy with it, but I always wanted a 10mm. When I finally got a G29 this year, I fell head over heels in love, just like I knew I would. I should have trusted my judgement. It is now PAINFULLY clear to me that all of the 10mm haters out there have never shot one. If they had, they would not speak such trash.

I have been shooting my G21SF less and less lately. However, I just today finished converting it to a G20L, so I will be shooting it much more. The .45ACP is great, but it's nothing like 10mm. You can handle it. Most commercially available 10mm target ammo is not much more powerful than decent .40S&W ammo. AND, the G20SF has a much heavier slide, and thicker grip. They serve to reduce the recoil greatly. I think a G20SF with light 10mm ammo has less recoil than a .40S&W G22. Even medium powered 10mm ammo is no worse than hot SD .40S&W ammo. It's only when you get to the true full-power 10mm ammo that recoil gets pretty stiff. And even then, the G20 handles it REALLY well.

I promise you that when you get your G20SF, and fire the first few shots, you will be wondering what everyone was talking about. It's no big deal. It really isn't. I would HIGHLY recommend spending some time at the range renting guns. Even if you can't find a 10mm Glock, you can shoot some .40S&W versions (which will give you a decent idea of how light-medium 10mm will feel), and you will learn how much a 9mm or .40S&W recoils. This will give you experience and better perspective when you step up to the G20.

There are several people around here who bought G20s as their first handguns, so you won't be the first. They had no issues, and LOVE their guns. Off the top of my head is GT member Arushus. Talk to him. Also, the .40S&W conversion barrel is a good idea. It will help you get in more practice for less money. Eventually, you will be bitten by the reloading bug (as most 10mm fans do), and will buy a press. So, save all of your brass. Even if you never reload, many of us will buy it from you. Good luck with your decision, and welcome to GT!
* /// You talked me into it, I'm buying a G-29 this week (Blue Label). Thanks for your honest input. -Mark
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Old 01-08-2013, 17:05   #33
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Hi!

I've been doing some Internet research for a while now on which first pistol to get, uses will be range duty first and then when proficient, home defense. It seems like the 10mm offers the best of all worlds as far as power, range, accuracy, modularity (can swap different barrels easily but not the other way around for pistols based on lesser calibers).

My question is, how realistic is it to expect me, as someone who's never shot a real gun before (.22 rifle a few times about 20 years ago), to be able handle even the light 10mm loads (to practice with)?

If 10mm is too much to learn with, should I still go with something like the Glock 20SF and then just right away buy an "easier" caliber barrel to start learning with?
Why do ALL newbies think and talk the same way! "Power, range, accuracy, modularity, etc." Of course someone with this mentality IS NOT going to understand; but, ....... first things first: Learn how to, 'work a pistol'. Learn your grip; learn your trigger; learn how to quickly find your ideal front sight picture, and, 'How' to anchor all of your shot inside it.

Then you can start screwing around with all of the, 'awesome calibers'! How will you know when you're ready? Draw and fire multiple shots into a 6 inch circle at and inside 10 yards WITHOUT any misses. If you can do that ....... you're ready.

Here's my lowly G-21 (45 ACP) at 16 yards, and just as fast as I could make the pistol go, 'Bang!' (Very hot, 'top of the chart' ammo) Until you can do this, too, you're not going to be ready for: "power, range, and accuracy". In my experience, unless they're hunters, guys who are really good with their pistols simply don't think that way.

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Old 01-08-2013, 19:59   #34
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Well, update on my thread:

I finally was able to get in some time to go shooting with a bud. Instead of going to MegaSports, we went to GAT Guns in Dundee, IL. Nice place, but understandably swamped because of the recent school shooting.

They had a non-SF non-Gen4 G20C, a 21SF that others were using, and some a pretty good selection of other handguns. It was so crazy busy, we only shot two: G20C first, and then a XD-M 4.5" .45. We shot 180gr 10mm and 230gr .45, I can't remember what type.

Both the 10mm and .45 really seemed to feel about the same powerwise. Nothing either of us couldn't handle (I'm about 270 and mostly fat, he's about 230 good amount of muscle). All our shots were within 6-10 inches of where we were aiming; it was my first time really shooting a pistol (except for my one day training class with almost all .22) and I believe his first time as well.

Based on the above, I decided screw it, I'm done waiting and screwing around, I'm going to get a Gen4 G20. Found out about GSSF, sent in for the 2 year individual membership. Once I get my certificate, I'll bring it up to GAT and get/order my pistol; called GAT, they know about and honor the GSSF.

Also I ordered a 10mm to .40 KKM conversion barrel. I figure I'll get better with cheap .40 ammo and just have some 10mm stuff to have fun with and for home SD duty. I called KKM before ordering and they said the current barrel works fine in the Gen4.

That's about it...thank you all for the info and advice, I appreciate it!

Chuck

While there are those who don't like the idea, I have found the stock G20 barrel shoots 40SW just fine and recoil is very low due to heavy slide. Curious how you like the KKM after you get it running.
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Old 01-08-2013, 22:04   #35
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If you're serious about learning to shoot accuately, get a .22, and then work your way up to larger calibers.
If you want to develop a bad flinch, which you will never cure, then, sure, go out and buy the biggest, baddest gun that you can conceive of.

But, what do I know. I can usually take a chick who's never shot before and have her outshooting most guys with a .38 or a 9mm in three or four lessons.
Of course, that's not really a fair comparison because most guys started out with the biggest, baddest gun they can conceive of and developed an incurable flinch.
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Old 01-08-2013, 22:06   #36
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But, what do I know. Most of my groups look like this.
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Old 01-08-2013, 22:51   #37
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But, what do I know. Most of my groups look like this.
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Nice shooting there MD!

Chucky2, you'll do fine with the G20. That big ol' gun mellows out loads quite a bit if you are shooting "FBI Loads." Congratulations on a terrific gun. It is my favorite.

The biggest drawback is that 10mm ammo is really freaking expensive. It is almost essential to become a reloader. An inexpensive loading setup can pay for itself in about 1000 rounds.
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Old 01-09-2013, 07:03   #38
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But, what do I know. Most of my groups look like this.

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Old 01-09-2013, 10:27   #39
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If you're serious about learning to shoot accuately, get a .22, and then work your way up to larger calibers.
If you want to develop a bad flinch, which you will never cure, then, sure, go out and buy the biggest, baddest gun that you can conceive of.

But, what do I know. I can usually take a chick who's never shot before and have her outshooting most guys with a .38 or a 9mm in three or four lessons.
Of course, that's not really a fair comparison because most guys started out with the biggest, baddest gun they can conceive of and developed an incurable flinch.
That's sort of what I'm going to do. I don't plan on shooting 10mm at all really (except maybe just for fun). The .40 conversion barrel is going right in and I plan to find the weakest .40 target ammo I can and shoot that.

Are you saying that in the G20 with the heavier slide, even weak .40 target ammo is going to be too much for me?

Chuck
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:29   #40
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While there are those who don't like the idea, I have found the stock G20 barrel shoots 40SW just fine and recoil is very low due to heavy slide. Curious how you like the KKM after you get it running.
I'll post back here once I get it in and running, or, start another thread.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:37   #41
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Why do ALL newbies think and talk the same way! "Power, range, accuracy, modularity, etc." Of course someone with this mentality IS NOT going to understand; but, ....... first things first: Learn how to, 'work a pistol'. Learn your grip; learn your trigger; learn how to quickly find your ideal front sight picture, and, 'How' to anchor all of your shot inside it.

Then you can start screwing around with all of the, 'awesome calibers'! How will you know when you're ready? Draw and fire multiple shots into a 6 inch circle at and inside 10 yards WITHOUT any misses. If you can do that ....... you're ready.

Here's my lowly G-21 (45 ACP) at 16 yards, and just as fast as I could make the pistol go, 'Bang!' (Very hot, 'top of the chart' ammo) Until you can do this, too, you're not going to be ready for: "power, range, and accuracy". In my experience, unless they're hunters, guys who are really good with their pistols simply don't think that way.
The problem is, I really don't want or need multiple firearms - for my purposes, I just need one. If I can get a G20 that can shoot 4 different calibers, and can convert with a full upper assembly to .45 (easily, so someone inexperienced like me can do it), then that is a huge plus.

If the gun can run all the way down to weak .40 and all the way up to hot 10mm, giving me a huge range for pretty much any use I could possibly need it for, then that's even all the better.

It's not that I can't afford it (while not rich, I've got quite a bit of savings...I could buy any combo of guns, accessories, etc. I want), I'm just a frugal type of guy. The G20 seems to be a 'do it all' type of gun, save for the aforementioned 'get a .22 to learn with'. (and even then, isn't there a 10->22 conversion?)

What made me even go down this road in the first place was when I took my gun safety class, we practiced with 6" .22 target pistols. We then shot two .38 and one .357 Mag out of a .357 revolver. And finally, two .45 out of a G21. Out of all the guns there, including the .22, the G21 was by far the nicest to shoot.

Depending on how bad I initially shoot the .40 w/ the .40 conversion barrel, I'm open to the .22 practice pistol. It'd certainly be cheap on ammo!

What .22 practice pistol would you guys recommend?

Chuck
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Old 01-09-2013, 17:19   #42
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Old 01-09-2013, 18:50   #43
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Have you looked at Advantage Arms 22 conversion kit for your G20? More expensive than a 40 conversion barrel but will pay back pretty fast if you shoot a lot.
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Old 01-09-2013, 20:12   #44
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Yes there is a conversion for a G20/21 to shoot .22lr. I believe Advantage Arms makes one.
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:07   #45
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Back to the original title..

My 14 year old son shot my G20SF loaded with full power Underwood 200 grain XTP. He didn't have a problem controlling it, though he did have a malfunction which I would attribute to limpwristing.

He had fired 9mm Makarov, 9mm Luger, and .40 S&W previously.

With the wide range of loadings out there in 10mm, plus the availability of .40, .357, and 9x21 barrels, my advice would be to go for it and Enjoy!
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:34   #46
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If you are serous about learning to shoot You can not go wrong with a g20 or G20sf 10mm, It does not have the recoil many say it does, Yes with ful power load you will know you have a powerful pistol. There are like you said many options for these pistol that no other pistol offers.
I love my G20 once you get use to it anything other than full power round will seem watered down. I will say I shoot a lot of watered down round for practice though but even watered down with 180gr 1250fps is very accurate and fun to shoot.

You will not be disappointed BUT a proud 10mm Glock owner

ALL the way
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:18   #47
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It's not my intention to speak against getting a 10mm, but if you're not really going to shoot 10mm, like you said, then why are you thinking about getting one? Why buy a G20, then buy a .40 barrel just to shoot .40 when you could buy a .40 to begin with? Sounds to me like that would make more sense. The .40 can be converted to 9mm (low recoil, low cost), 357 Sig and they make .22 conversion units all day long for the .40 models.

Or what about a G21 .45, which has just as many (if not more) options as the G20? .45 ammo is easier to come by locally, and they make 10mm conversion barrels for the G21, or you can put a G20 upper on a G21.

I don't think the 10mm is too much at all, but for something that's going to get used very little, why bother with it? You're better off spending your money on something you will use. Get out of your head the notion of the .40 being weak, that's garbage. If it won't fall to a .40, it's likely not to fall to a 10mm either. It's not like a 38 Spcl compared to a .357 Mag, not even close.
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:23   #48
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MY 29sf less recoil than my 23...GO BIG OR GO HOME!!!!!
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Old 01-10-2013, 09:41   #49
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It's not my intention to speak against getting a 10mm, but if you're not really going to shoot 10mm, like you said, then why are you thinking about getting one? Why buy a G20, then buy a .40 barrel just to shoot .40 when you could buy a .40 to begin with? Sounds to me like that would make more sense. The .40 can be converted to 9mm (low recoil, low cost), 357 Sig and they make .22 conversion units all day long for the .40 models.
The purpose for that was twofold in my eyes: 1.) Should be much cheaper over the thousands of rounds to shoot .40 instead of 10mm, since I realistically won't be reloading, and, 2.) the larger size and mass of the G20 should soak up more recoil of the .40 round compared to say a fullsize G22, making it even nicer/easier to shoot.

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Or what about a G21 .45, which has just as many (if not more) options as the G20? .45 ammo is easier to come by locally, and they make 10mm conversion barrels for the G21, or you can put a G20 upper on a G21.
That was an option I'd seriously considered. The reason I went G20 over G21 was that the G20 mags can accept .40 with no problems, whereas the .45 - as far as I was able to tell - could accept .45. It is absolutely true I could have got a G21, and then a 10mm barrel, plus I think an extractor?, plus 3 10mm mags, and been able to do what I'm about to be doing. Just didn't seem worth it given I can just get a G21 upper assembly whenever I'm ready to shoot .45.

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I don't think the 10mm is too much at all, but for something that's going to get used very little, why bother with it? You're better off spending your money on something you will use. Get out of your head the notion of the .40 being weak, that's garbage. If it won't fall to a .40, it's likely not to fall to a 10mm either. It's not like a 38 Spcl compared to a .357 Mag, not even close.
I didn't mean weak in stopping power wise, I mean weak as in, I go find the weakest (which if I'm lucky will also be the cheapest) .40 ammo to learn on, that's going to be weaker in theory to the weakest 10mm ammo I could find to practice on. For sure it should be cheaper...

Chuck
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Old 01-10-2013, 10:02   #50
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The 10mm is great but you'll learn the quickest with a .22, something cheap along the lines of maybe a 22/45 would be a great tool to have alongside that 10mm for getting your basics down.
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42