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Old 10-21-2011, 20:11   #1
Kbuck1984
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Active Shooter Questions

Good Evening everyone. I have a few questions, they're more in detail about how to approach an active shooter than what should be answered on an open forum. If any LEO's out there don't mind sharing some knowledge with me I would greatly appreciate it. You can message me on here, or talk through email whatever is easier for you. A few of my questions are;

What types of formations would be most beneficial if you do have back up with you, I'm mostly referring to 2-4 man formations.

Does anyone have knowledge of a real life active shooter that used "sleeper" shooters that were inactive until LEO's arrived?

What is the best way to enter a building as a single man patrol?
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Old 10-21-2011, 21:32   #2
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Originally Posted by Kbuck1984 View Post
Good Evening everyone. I have a few questions, they're more in detail about how to approach an active shooter than what should be answered on an open forum. If any LEO's out there don't mind sharing some knowledge with me I would greatly appreciate it. You can message me on here, or talk through email whatever is easier for you. A few of my questions are;

What types of formations would be most beneficial if you do have back up with you, I'm mostly referring to 2-4 man formations.You really need to practice it to see it. I would advise getting any kind of training you can then bring it back to your department. I think you could figure it out with practicing with just Redguns a few officers. No need to throw in role playing until the basics are down. We run with 4 but I could see things from 2-6 being possible. You just have to figure out who is going to cover what and why.

Does anyone have knowledge of a real life active shooter that used "sleeper" shooters that were inactive until LEO's arrived? Never heard of sleeper. I think I did hear of a guy trying to blend in with the victims to get out.

What is the best way to enter a building as a single man patrol?Solo entry? I would say away from where the shooter is. that way you can get in the building without taking fire. The first 3 officers on scene at Columbine got into a long distance gunfight with pistols on two sides of the building. Had they been on a side where they weren't seen would they have thought to go for it? Maybe. We'll never know because they got bogged down in a firefight outside the building and ran out of ammo fast.
Rules for active shooters:

1. Bring a long gun. Preferably a rifle.

2. Bring plenty of ammo.

3. Bring plenty of friends.
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Old 10-21-2011, 22:13   #3
Kbuck1984
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Rules for active shooters:

1. Bring a long gun. Preferably a rifle.

2. Bring plenty of ammo.

3. Bring plenty of friends.
Number 1 - Only carry pistols. Their rules not mine.

Number 2 - Minimum ammo issued for duty.

Number 3 - Should be covered decently most of the time.
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Old 10-21-2011, 22:33   #4
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do a search for ron borsch on active shooter. he is a retired police officer that has researched this very subject.
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Old 10-22-2011, 03:45   #5
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:38   #6
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Number 1 - Only carry pistols. Their rules not mine.

Number 2 - Minimum ammo issued for duty.

Number 3 - Should be covered decently most of the time.
Really? At Ft. Hood?

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, given the nut-cluster that happened over at Davis-Monthan, but still...

You may need to cheat the system a bit. While a personal long-gun isn't likely, at least you need to squirrel away some extra magazines for your issue weapon. If you have to buy them yourself, so be it.

To your other questions, formations are fluid. Get as many guns as possible into the fight. Security is secondary: remember this is an active shooter, not a building search or a barricade. Think in terms of principles, and don't go looking for a cookbook approach with a school solution.
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Last edited by Sam Spade; 10-22-2011 at 09:40..
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Old 10-22-2011, 09:57   #7
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+1 on squirreling away extra magazines. Know what ammo your agency is using, and get the same stuff, including brand and bullet grains. Know that if your shooting iron is involved in the fight and the possibility comes up that they want to confiscate for evidence, that the magazine has to be the same as used by the agency in your location, not some off brand.

Fact, it is better to have extra than to need it and not have it; and if they look at the primer end of the casing and see what brand of ammo it is, it should be what they routinely buy.
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Old 10-22-2011, 18:25   #8
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Is this a suitable discussion for an open forum with unknown lurkers? Just asking.
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Old 10-22-2011, 20:13   #9
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KBuck - E-mail sent....jkm
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Old 10-22-2011, 21:29   #10
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Originally Posted by Phelen_Kell View Post
do a search for ron borsch on active shooter. he is a retired police officer that has researched this very subject.
Really good stuff there. I assume he is a big advocate of the SOLO entry.

I highly enjoyed reading his work, seems very knowledgeable. Thank you.
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Old 10-22-2011, 21:36   #11
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Really? At Ft. Hood?

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised, given the nut-cluster that happened over at Davis-Monthan, but still...

You may need to cheat the system a bit. While a personal long-gun isn't likely, at least you need to squirrel away some extra magazines for your issue weapon. If you have to buy them yourself, so be it.

To your other questions, formations are fluid. Get as many guns as possible into the fight. Security is secondary: remember this is an active shooter, not a building search or a barricade. Think in terms of principles, and don't go looking for a cookbook approach with a school solution.
Not at hood anymore, I'm in Hawaii now. At Hood we had more ammo, and used JHP. Here we're very limited with ammo and it's ball.

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+1 on squirreling away extra magazines. Know what ammo your agency is using, and get the same stuff, including brand and bullet grains. Know that if your shooting iron is involved in the fight and the possibility comes up that they want to confiscate for evidence, that the magazine has to be the same as used by the agency in your location, not some off brand.

Fact, it is better to have extra than to need it and not have it; and if they look at the primer end of the casing and see what brand of ammo it is, it should be what they routinely buy.
I have extra mags. They're the same mags we use on duty. Would you recommend, knowing I carry limited ball ammo on duty, to fill my extra mags with the same ball ammo or use a high quality JHP?
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Old 10-22-2011, 22:04   #12
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Each patrol car has a 12 gauge Benelli shotgun and a 16" M16. Both have slings. M16s have dual-mags already in the gun.
On our duty belts, we have Glock 31s with 3 mags total.

For active shooters, we normally take the M16s. I keep an extra mag for the M16 in my gear bag as well as extra mags for my Glock 31. So if I am going in, I will have 90 rds of 55gr. PSP for the rifle and 90 rounds for the Glock 31 (my spare mags in the bag are 22-rders). My back-up on my body armor is a Glock 32 with a 13-rd mag, so add in another 14 rounds of .357SIG. That's just what is on me. Most of the other officers will just be bringing what they have, so figure 46 rds handgun and 30 rds rifle for each additional officer that goes in to engage the active shooter.

We have trained in various formations, techniques, etc. etc. diamond, stick, stack, t, etc.

Our policy is do not go in alone, wait for at least one officer, so at minimum, we go in two at a time. we practice with 2-4 man teams. During the summer time, the schools let us practice in the buildings. This way, we're familiar with the layout. We use airsoft guns during practice. The custodians hate cleaning up after us.

Someone mentioned Ron Borsch earlier. We went to one of his classes and I can't remember which method he taught, I think it was a modified diamond formation. But Ron's big thing is the SOLO OFFICER, which is, grab your rifle, run towards the gunshots and take out the shooter.

With the amount of mil-surplus rifles available, no police department should be without one.


---
oh, all handgun rounds are JHP. No ball ammo allowed on duty. I'm in charge of the range now, so I'm not stingy with the duty ammo or the practice ammo. If my guys want to train, just let me know. We have our own range in our building.

Last edited by Chowser; 10-22-2011 at 22:06.. Reason: edit-handgun rounds
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Old 10-22-2011, 23:38   #13
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Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
Is this a suitable discussion for an open forum with unknown lurkers? Just asking.
I don't see a major concern over it. Nothing we discuss here can't be found within a matter of minutes anywhere else on the web.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbuck1984 View Post
I have extra mags. They're the same mags we use on duty. Would you recommend, knowing I carry limited ball ammo on duty, to fill my extra mags with the same ball ammo or use a high quality JHP?
What is the possibility of getting a written letter from your agency permitting you to carry a HP round, if you pay for it and they approve it? If their reasoning for issuing ball ammo is financial (its cheaper), it may work. If they say no, ask if you can carry it in your spare mags for a SHTF situation.
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