GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

-->
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-29-2011, 21:19   #1
ULVER
Dixie Rebel
 
ULVER's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: ATL., GA. USA
Posts: 2,928
Send a message via Yahoo to ULVER


Sikh Settles With Ca. For 296K & Cush 61K Job, Due To Beard!

Good thing California has all that extra taxpayers loot sitting around...

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/29...est=latestnews

And another touchy, feely Sikh story. Check out the last paragraph. Turbans are coming to the L.A. Sheriff's Office.

http://www.nriinternet.com/CANADA/PO...ingh/index.htm
__________________
Last night fear knocked on the door...
Courage answered... There was no one there...
ACCURACY BEATS HORSEPOWER/TACTICS MEAN EVERYTHING
In memory of Off. Steven Trindle
In memory of Det. Dennis C. Stepnowski

Last edited by ULVER; 10-29-2011 at 21:21..
ULVER is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2011, 21:46   #2
ateamer
NRA4EVR
 
ateamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the hallway - it's on cuz!
Posts: 14,758
So he refuses to meet the basic physical requirements to do the job (clean shaven so gas masks will seal), and gets a fat check plus a cushy desk job that everyone else has to put in years on the job just to get the chance to test for that position? Our state government, and courts, have no balls. If his god will get all twisted up and punish him in the afterlife because he didn't have a beard, that god is a dick anyway and who would want to be stuck for eternity with a dude like that?
__________________
Firearms instructor/Glock armorer
Airplane pilot - Commercial/Instrument rating
49er Faithful
Know-it-all
ateamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2011, 23:11   #3
Hack
Gold Membership
Crazy CO
 
Hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas, near the bison.
Posts: 22,960
Send a message via AIM to Hack Send a message via Yahoo to Hack
Quote:
Originally Posted by ateamer View Post
So he refuses to meet the basic physical requirements to do the job (clean shaven so gas masks will seal), and gets a fat check plus a cushy desk job that everyone else has to put in years on the job just to get the chance to test for that position? Our state government, and courts, have no balls. If his god will get all twisted up and punish him in the afterlife because he didn't have a beard, that god is a dick anyway and who would want to be stuck for eternity with a dude like that?
Well, one thing California doesn't want to admit to is our origins as concerning this nation is that we are a Christian nation, as that would not be politically correct. There are those who want California to be portrayed as being the avant garde of multiculturalism, because in many things as California adopts things so will much of the nation. But, I am going to delve further into this from a stand point of logic.

I am a Christian. There are some orthodox Christians who believe that all men should wear beards upon achieving chrismation, (Antiochian IIRC), or at least those who are going to be deacons, priests, etectera. In Orthodox Judaism there are many men who go by the Torah mitzvot concerning not trimming the corners of the beard, (Torah being called the Pentateuch by many Christians).

I know it used to be in the US Army, (subsequently the same in all reserve components), regulations that allowed for the wearing of a beard for religious purposes. Then in the eighties it was done away with.

As to beards and masks: I have worn a beard with a mask and have gotten along quite well with one. It is just a bit of a pain taking off the mask. In Israel there are masks made for those who are orthodox and go along with the restrictions concerning beards, and also there are plenty of men who are orthodox Jews working in the police force, as well as all of their military. So, I have to ask myself, "Why couldn't reasonable accommodation be made for people of different religions, if we truly are going to abide by the workplace laws concerning equal opportunity as applied to people of varying religious beliefs?" And, they do very well doing what they do.

Any person who by his/her religious edicts are required to wear a beard should be allowed to try out for the law enforcement departments; all DOD positions; any other essential service. That goes for dresses and long hair for the women, who have religious edicts that say to do so. If they cannot pass the PT test, they don't make it in; if they don't pass the background test they don't make it in; if they don't pass a LE academy they don't make it to FTO, so forth and so on. Make the rules fair for everyone in public employment, (mostly they are I would think).
__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."
In God we trust, all others we monitor.
Hack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 00:15   #4
Naelbis
Senior Member
 
Naelbis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: ND
Posts: 2,904
I've never worked with a Sikh, but I know a little about their religion and history. Sikhs have a long history of being disciplined and dedicated soldiers/cops etc and I have no issues with either the beard or turban in the work place. We are required as public employers to make reasonable accomodation regarding religion and most of the rules about headgear and facial hair were created by armchair weinies who cared more about how pretty everyone looks than their effectiveness.
__________________
"Never underestimate the Human capacity for stupidity".
Naelbis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 00:20   #5
Hack
Gold Membership
Crazy CO
 
Hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas, near the bison.
Posts: 22,960
Send a message via AIM to Hack Send a message via Yahoo to Hack
Interesting. I have heard that Sikhs have very good health practices. But, I don't know much about those at all. I think they could make good additions just as any faithful employee/cop.

The only dangers that I see concerning other religions is that while most people from another religious sect may be good people, that there are those who would like to try to remake our country into their image. Radical Muslims are right now trying to do that concerning Western civilization.
__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."
In God we trust, all others we monitor.
Hack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 10:28   #6
merlynusn
Senior Member
 
merlynusn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 3,265
My thing is that if he's allowed to have a beard then why can't I?

Obviously, the "gas mask" thing is just a farce. If it wasn't, then they wouldn't make an accommodation. So if he can have a beard, then I should be able to have one too. If it's an essential job function that I be clean shaven, then it's an essential job function and there is no getting around it, everyone must be clean shaven.

It's kind of like the people in the Navy who get to have a beard because of bumps on their face, yet their beard is perfectly lined and trimmed. So obviously, by them perfectly trimming them with exact lines, they negate their argument.
merlynusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 10:43   #7
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 14,298
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlynusn View Post
My thing is that if he's allowed to have a beard then why can't I?
I agree to a point, but agencies have the right to make standards, and people have the right to follow their religion, if that reasonable accomodations... Those conflicts require some sort of compromise. You can always become a Sikh..

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 10-30-2011 at 10:44..
steveksux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2011, 10:49   #8
A6Gator
Senior Member
 
A6Gator's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Barack's Plantation
Posts: 3,383
So he gets $295,000 in damages and gets a $61,000-a-year job as a manager? BS

Since he's never worked in the business, it doesn't say very much about the state's view of managers in the system, does it? If he doesn't know WTF he's doing, other than knowing how to hire a better lawyer than the state, why not an entry-level position like other FNGs, or is that beneath his religion too?
__________________
-The only easy day was yesterday
-If you are authorized to carry a weapon, and you walk outside without it, just say this to yourself... “Baa.”

Last edited by A6Gator; 10-30-2011 at 10:49..
A6Gator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 08:50   #9
merlynusn
Senior Member
 
merlynusn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 3,265
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
I agree to a point, but agencies have the right to make standards, and people have the right to follow their religion, if that reasonable accomodations... Those conflicts require some sort of compromise. You can always become a Sikh..

Randy
And I'd have no problem if they just came out and said "We are making a reasonable accommodation but we want our employees clean shaven."

You can't have a reasonable accommodation if you are required to be clean shaven for a job related function like wearing a gas mask. So either their reason for being clean shaven is BS or they are making an unreasonable accommodation since he can't perform the basic job function.
merlynusn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 09:24   #10
Hack
Gold Membership
Crazy CO
 
Hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas, near the bison.
Posts: 22,960
Send a message via AIM to Hack Send a message via Yahoo to Hack
Quote:
Originally Posted by merlynusn View Post
And I'd have no problem if they just came out and said "We are making a reasonable accommodation but we want our employees clean shaven."

You can't have a reasonable accommodation if you are required to be clean shaven for a job related function like wearing a gas mask. So either their reason for being clean shaven is BS or they are making an unreasonable accommodation since he can't perform the basic job function.
In my job a beard is actually allowable. Not all federal agencies allow for it, but mine is one of the exceptions to the rule of no beards. Heck, one time, (just for the heck of it), I grew one that was somewhat large, and in fact could have grown ear locks along with it, while wearing it was considered that I was possibly an orthodox Israeli by one of the people who had been to Israel, (on our next door military post we have foreign military officers who train there). Now a days I either wear a well trimmed beard, or well trimmed goatee beard, as do some of the LT's in my world. It is short enough that one can not grab a hold of it easily during a fight. And, yes I can still wear a gas mask.

The odd exception is per OSHA. We cannot qualify to wear N95 masks, nor SCBA gear with any type of beard, and are supposed to be clean shaven. So, for those assigned to do escorts for overtime, it is necessary for the person who is being offered the overtime to find out whether the inmate whom they are escorting is making it necessary for the assigned officers to wear an N95 mask.
__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."
In God we trust, all others we monitor.
Hack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 11:17   #11
OLY-M4gery
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Southern WI
Posts: 5,931
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
I agree to a point, but agencies have the right to make standards, and people have the right to follow their religion, if that reasonable accomodations... Those conflicts require some sort of compromise. You can always become a Sikh..

Randy
Either you have standards or you don't.

If your religon doesn't "allow" you to do certain things, then you can't get jobs that include doing those certain things.
OLY-M4gery is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 13:20   #12
Hack
Gold Membership
Crazy CO
 
Hack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kansas, near the bison.
Posts: 22,960
Send a message via AIM to Hack Send a message via Yahoo to Hack
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLY-M4gery View Post
Either you have standards or you don't.

If your religon doesn't "allow" you to do certain things, then you can't get jobs that include doing those certain things.
Sometimes, with the influx of people from other countries becoming citizens here, and people here being influenced by said people and the religions that are brought with them we come into what is known as cultural conflicts. We as a society, (at least by law), do not expect a legal immigrant to give up his/her religion, but do expect by custom for them to assimilate into our overall culture. In that we are largely a nation of immigrants these things have happened over the period of time that we have had the USA on this continent.

So, standard defined:
Synonym Discussion of STANDARD
standard, criterion, gauge, yardstick, touchstone mean a means of determining what a thing should be. standard applies to any definite rule, principle, or measure established by authority <standards of behavior>. criterion may apply to anything used as a test of quality whether formulated as a rule or principle or not <questioned the critic's criteria for excellence>. gauge applies to a means of testing a particular dimension (as thickness, depth, diameter) or figuratively a particular quality or aspect <polls as a gauge of voter dissatisfaction>.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/standard

Standards have had a degree of flexibility usually reflecting the customs, and culture of society; which society usually has changing standards.

Presently we would not dream of disallowing certain peoples to work law enforcement, or for that matter would expect certain people to work law enforcement according to the standards of today, going by the standards that were existent in the era of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. In fact concerning some things we would possibly be appalled at those things that were deemed allowable, not allowed concerning people of different backgrounds, races and religions during that era.

So, with those things in mind we will at some point within law enforcement and other segments of society examine those standards that we hold today to be proper and contemplate proper changes to reflect current society.
__________________
Arming with truth defeats ignorance. Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by me." John 14:6
"Opinions expressed in this article are those of the author
and do not necessarily represent the opinions of the Federal
Bureau of Prisons or the Department of Justice."
In God we trust, all others we monitor.

Last edited by Hack; 10-31-2011 at 13:22..
Hack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-31-2011, 18:31   #13
w01
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 142
http://www.army.mil/article/39536/Tr..._on_Fort_Drum/

http://www.army.mil/article/36339/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Naelbis View Post
I've never worked with a Sikh, but I know a little about their religion and history. Sikhs have a long history of being disciplined and dedicated soldiers/cops etc and I have no issues with either the beard or turban in the work place. We are required as public employers to make reasonable accomodation regarding religion and most of the rules about headgear and facial hair were created by armchair weinies who cared more about how pretty everyone looks than their effectiveness.
w01 is offline   Reply With Quote

-->
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 13:32.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,146
330 Members
816 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42