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Old 11-15-2011, 16:14   #1
StarfoxHowl
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Copper Only Projectile Ammunition

I was looking through Mideway's ammunition offerings and saw an offering that was a Copper Only Projectile.

A question for those in the know.

Given the same weight and configuration of bullet (example 185 gr. HP) does the component material make any difference in the performance of the round in a self defense situation, or is "a rock is a rock"?
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Old 11-15-2011, 17:09   #2
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First, the mono metal bullet will be longer than a lead core bullet of the same wt, so they will also have diff reloading data. As to terminal performance, there is no lead core to slip, so in theory, the bullet will perform more uniformly in all test scenarios. Reality, sometimes the HP petals break off & you get a caliber solid left to penetrate.
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Old 11-16-2011, 00:14   #3
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...Reality, sometimes the HP petals break off & you get a caliber solid left to penetrate.

Fred, I will ask you if you think this is because in a given load that the copper bullet was driven too fast for its "window?' I am going to guess yes as M. Shovel at Corbon told me this once related to a DPX question I had. I believe he said that each Barnes copper bullet weight/cal. combo had a "sweet spot" and driven too fast the petals would merely lay back. Perhaps this is where the lost petals happen.
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Old 11-16-2011, 07:56   #4
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Petals breaking off happens with rifle loads and usually the ones going over 3,000 fps. Handgun loads don't have enough velocity to break off a petal, however they will fold back further against the shaft "if" driven too fast for that particular bullet. Ex. the 115 gr 9mm solid copper HP bullet driven to 357 Sig, 38 Super velocities. Instead of the bullet being peeled out so that the petals create a larger diameter to creat a larger wound channel, the high velocity will cause them to fold back against the shaft, resulting in less than "optimim" performance.
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:07   #5
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Petals breaking off happens with rifle loads and usually the ones going over 3,000 fps. Handgun loads don't have enough velocity to break off a petal, however they will fold back further against the shaft "if" driven too fast for that particular bullet. Ex. the 115 gr 9mm solid copper HP bullet driven to 357 Sig, 38 Super velocities. Instead of the bullet being peeled out so that the petals create a larger diameter to creat a larger wound channel, the high velocity will cause them to fold back against the shaft, resulting in less than "optimim" performance.
Micahel, if the petals can fold flat against the shank of the bullet @ handgun vel, then they can also break off. It may not happen often but can happen.
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Old 11-16-2011, 13:26   #6
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Micahel, if the petals can fold flat against the shank of the bullet @ handgun vel, then they can also break off. It may not happen often but can happen.

That's correct, and especially when striking bone/various barriers.




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Old 11-16-2011, 14:23   #7
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I think both have excellent points. Naturally, if a bullet hits say an elk's scapula all bets are off. Even a 20 to 1 lead alloy bullet can break into pieces in this situation. Also, when steel barriers are present all bets are off. However, for say a normal self defense situation I will hold to what M. Shovel says.
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Old 11-16-2011, 14:31   #8
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I have fired lots of our solid copper handgun loads at ballistic gelatin with heavy clothing, thru auto steel and glass and plywood and have never had a petal break off.
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Old 11-16-2011, 15:34   #9
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the pedals from corbon ammo may not break off. but early X bullets used to lose pedals all the time, you would get a shank with no pedals at all
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Old 11-16-2011, 19:07   #10
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I have fired lots of our solid copper handgun loads at ballistic gelatin with heavy clothing, thru auto steel and glass and plywood and have never had a petal break off.


But when using the handgun against a 300# felon and hitting say heavy leather Jacket, and 'bones', or for hunting, your up against more than jello and denim ! Also when faced in the real world with various barriers...







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Old 11-19-2011, 03:18   #11
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CM, I'd wager 99.99% of non-LEO shootings do not involve barriers. As for the 300 lbs. felon...well that would be a problem with any handgun.

A few years back there was a big stink in NYC because a cop had to shoot a woman many times with a 12 ga. using buckshot at room distance. Naturally, the press pointed out that she was African American. You had to dig deeper to find out she was lunging at the cop with a butcher knife and that she weighed something like 400 lbs. and the buckshot was being "stifled" by the layers of fat!! Try & duplicate that in a lab!!
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Old 11-19-2011, 05:53   #12
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But when using the handgun against a 300# felon and hitting say heavy leather Jacket, and 'bones', or for hunting, your up against more than jello and denim ! Also when faced in the real world with various barriers...







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Did you miss the part about steel, plywood, and auto glass?

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Old 11-19-2011, 08:02   #13
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Did you miss the part about steel, plywood, and auto glass?

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NO i didn't miss it, but still stand on what i said... I've neve had good experience with corbon. I'll leave it at that.


Y'all might consider testing some on your own maybe......







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Old 11-19-2011, 08:10   #14
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CM, I'd wager 99.99% of non-LEO shootings do not involve barriers. As for the 300 lbs. felon...well that would be a problem with any handgun.

A few years back there was a big stink in NYC because a cop had to shoot a woman many times with a 12 ga. using buckshot at room distance. Naturally, the press pointed out that she was African American. You had to dig deeper to find out she was lunging at the cop with a butcher knife and that she weighed something like 400 lbs. and the buckshot was being "stifled" by the layers of fat!! Try & duplicate that in a lab!!
Your percentage may or may not be correct. You do not have to be a cop to get your butt in a mess, and you never know what you may have to shoot through or be up against. I got a family loaded with LEO's so I pick up a thing or two, and life has tossed a few things my way as well amigo. Be prepared for the worst ! If it don't happen fine. If it does, at least you've trained for it and have done all you can to be ready...



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Old 11-19-2011, 23:40   #15
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I have fired lots of our solid copper handgun loads at ballistic gelatin with heavy clothing, thru auto steel and glass and plywood and have never had a petal break off.
You only push your 357 sig to 1,350 fps, but you are correct I have never see a petal break off. Even a 125gr 10mm round at over 1,600 fps did not break off, but they did bend back. Do you have any data on the effectiveness of the copper rounds compared to regular or bonded bullets. Which would be more effective, the 125 gr copper 357 sig at 1,350 fps or the standard bullet at 1,425 fps. Which one should I purchase.
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Old 11-20-2011, 09:36   #16
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You only push your 357 sig to 1,350 fps, but you are correct I have never see a petal break off. Even a 125gr 10mm round at over 1,600 fps did not break off, but they did bend back. Do you have any data on the effectiveness of the copper rounds compared to regular or bonded bullets. Which would be more effective, the 125 gr copper 357 sig at 1,350 fps or the standard bullet at 1,425 fps. Which one should I purchase.
Thank you for bringing that up Jim. I'm investigating if it's worth purchasing a 10mm Glock once I get home from this part of the world.
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Old 11-20-2011, 14:16   #17
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...Which would be more effective, the 125 gr copper 357 sig at 1,350 fps or the standard bullet at 1,425 fps. Which one should I purchase.

Obviously, I am not M. Shovel. However, I'll wade in with an OPINION based on my life observations. Given equal bullet weights USUALLY velocity rules. However, with the all copper HP's the playing field is not level and the dymanics seem to change somewhat. With that said I would think that there is really not a helluva lot difference between the two except that with the Barnes bullet you can cover a lot more "territory" in that they always seem to open up in NORMAL self defense scenarios.

With that said, I would like to see an OBJECTIVE denim/gel test done with say the Buffalo Bore .357 Mag. with the 125 gr. Barnes copper HP to see if the petals do indeed merely lay back at ultra high velocity in a handgun round. It's not that I doubt M. Shovel and his extensive testing, but just for the sake of objectivity. M. Shovel has said on another forum that Corbon does not usually release test results to the general public in the name of objectivity and that is highly applaudable in today's age of "hucksterism."
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Old 11-20-2011, 16:32   #18
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I have something off of the wall I have been wondering. I got a couple of boxes of 125gr HST 357sig that go between 1,430 and 1,450fps. I say this because the last batch I bought never went over 1,360 fps. Here is my issue and I realize this is a "backyard" test but I wonder what it means. When I shoot through 4 layers of heavy denim into three gallon jugs full of water, there alway was a patern. Shooting 1,500fps DT or 1,500fps BB with the correct GD bullet, there is a tremendous energy dump on the first just. It is generally blown inside out with the top ripped off. The second jug usually has some splits on the seams, but nothing spectacular. However, with these new HST's, I get the same explosive effect on the first jug and the second jugs suffers sever damage with giant splits and the top blowing off. The second jug can move signicifantly more that a foot from where it stood between the two jugs. With all other ammo tested the second jug does not move much. All ammo, including the HST, just pass through the 3rd jug. It has been bothering me as to the effect on the 2nd jug with the HST's and is this something good, or something bad. The DT and BB have more energy, but the HST seems distribute the energy over a longer distance. You get the same effect without the denim, but the BB and DT have some effect on the second jugs but still not like the new HST's.
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Old 11-20-2011, 21:43   #19
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Jim, with all due respect I would not take any bullet serious that was tested in water. I know some people have an inordinate desire to shoot something but in the end the results are worse than useless IMO.
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Old 11-20-2011, 23:12   #20
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Originally Posted by TeamCorbon View Post
Petals breaking off happens with rifle loads and usually the ones going over 3,000 fps. Handgun loads don't have enough velocity to break off a petal, however they will fold back further against the shaft "if" driven too fast for that particular bullet. Ex. the 115 gr 9mm solid copper HP bullet driven to 357 Sig, 38 Super velocities. Instead of the bullet being peeled out so that the petals create a larger diameter to creat a larger wound channel, the high velocity will cause them to fold back against the shaft, resulting in less than "optimim" performance.
I think all projectiles have been designed with a sweet spot in mind.

I have taken a bullet designed for 45ACP and driven it at 45Super velocities and the the JHP folds back on itself or falls apart. I have taken a JHP bullet designed for 454 and driven it at 45ACP velocities and the bullet doesn't deform.
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