GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-22-2011, 18:40   #1
Andy W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,854
Federal HST 9mm question/observation

While doing some research, I noticed something interesting about the Federal HST 9mm loads. With most 9mm loads I've seen, the 124 grain +p load generally penetrates shallower but expands more violently. However, it looks like the HST may be different. In several tests, the 147 grain HST actually expanded more than the 124 grain version while still getting a little deeper penetration. I mean, these things are nasty little SOBs. It looks like they regularly reach 0.70" + even with denim while the 124+p usually stays in the .60" range. Why is this? Totally breaks the trend for 147 grain bullets not expanding well.
Andy W is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 19:05   #2
ABNAK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 648
I'll go ya one better: HST 147gr +P

Does an average of 1021fps from my Glock 19. It's the standard 147gr with a little more "oomph"! It is my carry load.

About 10 or 15 years ago I wouldn't have touched a 147gr 9mm with a 10-foot pole. Bullet design advancements in recent years have actually made it (from everything I've read) one of the top performers in 9mm.

Why does the 147gr HST expand more? Longer bullet, specifically designed to open up at lower velocities, therefore has longer petal length. Those long skivves in the jacket obviously help.
__________________
"...there's a man with a gun over there, tellin' me I got to beware..."

11C2P '83-'87
ABNAK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2011, 23:01   #3
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,408
HST 147 and 147+P tested in gel w/denim here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqr...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WI...feature=relmfu

Bottom line: the standard 147 had a bit more penetration, the +P 147 had a bit more expansion. Both are good but I prefer a bit more penetration. I'm not going to worry about whether I get .6 or .7" expansion but I AM going to be concerned about the difference between 11" and 13" of penetration.

Overall I still prefer a fast 124 but the 147s do shoot softer and that is a factor for fast shooting.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 11-22-2011 at 23:20..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 05:06   #4
ABNAK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 648
Quote:
Originally Posted by cowboy1964 View Post
HST 147 and 147+P tested in gel w/denim here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNRqr...feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i67WI...feature=relmfu

Bottom line: the standard 147 had a bit more penetration, the +P 147 had a bit more expansion. Both are good but I prefer a bit more penetration. I'm not going to worry about whether I get .6 or .7" expansion but I AM going to be concerned about the difference between 11" and 13" of penetration.

Overall I still prefer a fast 124 but the 147s do shoot softer and that is a factor for fast shooting.
Meh, I'll stick with the +P version for this reason: since real-world shootings usually don't have the nice pretty expansion that gel produces (and this is what decreases the penetration) I figure that the extra expansion of the +P is indicative of better performance under "real" conditions. i.e. even if it doesn't expand as well in a two-legged critter, which I would assume to be the case, it will then *likely* have more penetration. Conversely, the standard pressure load would then expand even less and *perhaps* over-penetrate. Make sense?

I love tnoutdoors videos BTW!
__________________
"...there's a man with a gun over there, tellin' me I got to beware..."

11C2P '83-'87

Last edited by ABNAK; 11-23-2011 at 05:09..
ABNAK is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 19:06   #5
sulaco
10mm Junky
 
sulaco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Lexington, SC
Posts: 277
I really like the performance I am seeing from Federal's HST stuff, too. Modern bullet design has brought the 9mm up to such similar results from the other, larger and/or faster calibers, for the benefits the 9mm gives, it's hard not to justify.

But I can get Speer Gold Dots for about 23 or 24 dollars per box of 50 locally. Until I find HST's that cheap, I'll stick with Gold Dots.
sulaco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 19:11   #6
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,458
ATK's ammo is so close in comparative results that it's hard to pick one that isn't calibrated to perform. Looking at the long ATK videos produced comparing the Speer Gold Dot and Federal's HST versus other ammos there's a lot to like about their ammo, to say nothing about a few other quality ammo companies' products also widely available.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 19:15   #7
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,458
Quote:
Originally Posted by sulaco View Post
But I can get Speer Gold Dots for about 23 or 24 dollars per box of 50 locally. Until I find HST's that cheap, I'll stick with Gold Dots.
Wow, that a great local price! Where I live you can double that price at the local gun shops; that's why I buy online.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 20:28   #8
SouthernBoyVA
Senior Member
 
SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Western Prince William County, VA
Posts: 2,973
duplicate post - deleted.
__________________
In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

Last edited by SouthernBoyVA; 11-23-2011 at 21:09..
SouthernBoyVA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-23-2011, 20:30   #9
SouthernBoyVA
Senior Member
 
SouthernBoyVA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Western Prince William County, VA
Posts: 2,973
Quote:
Originally Posted by unit1069 View Post
Wow, that a great local price! Where I live you can double that price at the local gun shops; that's why I buy online.
Two and a half weeks ago, I bought Gold Dot 124gr +P LEO loads (53617) for $23.99. Today I ordered another two boxes from the same place at $23.64 per box (yes all were 50-round boxes). Of course you have to pay shipping but you're still ahead of the game at those prices.

The major gun shows in my area generally have a few tables selling Federal HST ammunition in the vicinity of $25+ a box of 50 depending upon caliber.
__________________
In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?
SouthernBoyVA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 05:46   #10
cadillacguns
Senior Member
 
cadillacguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA
Posts: 4,122
Through recent balistic media testing, the 147gr 9mm HST and the 180 gr .40 HST were about the same in velocity, felt recoil, penetration and expansion.
__________________
GLOCKS #1 FAN!!!


"IN GLOCK WE TRUST"
cadillacguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 07:41   #11
dpadams6
Senior Member
 
dpadams6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillacguns View Post
Through recent balistic media testing, the 147gr 9mm HST and the 180 gr .40 HST were about the same in velocity, felt recoil, penetration and expansion.
wow. Interesting...and you can have more in the tube with the 9mm
dpadams6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 07:54   #12
triggerjerk
Senior Member
 
triggerjerk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,192
The HST 147gr rounds shoot very nice. Mild recoil.
triggerjerk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 13:02   #13
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by cadillacguns View Post
Through recent balistic media testing, the 147gr 9mm HST and the 180 gr .40 HST were about the same in velocity, felt recoil, penetration and expansion.
I can believe the velocity and penetration but not the recoil or expansion. Their data sheet clearly shows the .40 expanding about .1" more on average than the 9. OTOH, most real world testing I watch (tnoutdoors9, etc) show the .40 expanding not much, if any, more than 9. So I dunno. I still think .40's recoil will be noticeably more though. A 147gr 9mm is VERY soft.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 11-24-2011 at 13:14..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-24-2011, 20:22   #14
PghJim
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 1,775
If you do not buy into the theory that energy helps, the heavy HST rounds are hard to beat. I think energy plays a factor, so I go light for caliber, but still maybe HST.
PghJim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 05:12   #15
cadillacguns
Senior Member
 
cadillacguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA
Posts: 4,122
3 Nov 2011 , Delaware County Indiana, Ballistic gelatin test media 20 yards, 45 degrees, 4 layers denim material over gelatin.
Shot#1 P9HST2 out of S&W M&P, (Federal 9mm 147 gr HST lot# 24Z710). penetration 14.50, expanded 0.65, recovered weight 152.4, % weight retention 103.67%.

Shot#2 P40HST1 out of a Sig 229, (Federal .40 180 gr HST lot# P50Z798). penetration 14.0, expanded 0.65, recovered weight 181.5, % weight retention 100.83%.

Felt/perceived recoil about the same shooter noticed, both bullets mushroomed to perfection as advertized. My own later shooting, agreed with testers data.

Speer/Federal ammunition used,(9mm/40/45) etc, (FBI protocol testing used throughout the test to include auto glass) I took the measurements myself.

Anybody want the data E-mail me and I will send it.
__________________
GLOCKS #1 FAN!!!


"IN GLOCK WE TRUST"

Last edited by cadillacguns; 11-25-2011 at 05:15..
cadillacguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 15:31   #16
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,408
Unless you were comparing felt recoil in the same gun platform you are comparing apples to oranges. The Sig 229 only has a 3.9" barrel while the M&P has a 4.25" barrel. It all adds up.

Calculate the power factor. I guarantee I would be able to tell which is the 9 and which is the 40, unless the 40 was really underpowered.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 11-25-2011 at 15:36..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 19:15   #17
DannyII
Senior Member
 
DannyII's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Ohio
Posts: 561
Where can I get 9mm HST on the web? Last week, I ordered some .40 from Streicher's, and it arrived in 3 days. However, now they are out of 9mm 147 grain.

Any suggestions for a site to purchase?
DannyII is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 22:47   #18
hotpig
CLM Number 211
IAFF Local 4766
 
hotpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SW / West Central Illinois
Posts: 4,406


Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyII View Post
Where can I get 9mm HST on the web? Last week, I ordered some .40 from Streicher's, and it arrived in 3 days. However, now they are out of 9mm 147 grain.

Any suggestions for a site to purchase?
They never make enough of the 147gr to fill demand so it is hard to come by. I was supposed to get a pallet two weeks ago and it has not arrived. I'm not holding my breath because if it actually shows up before the end of the first quarter 2012 I will be surprised.
__________________
Keep your guns stashed and your powder dry.
hotpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-25-2011, 23:10   #19
Little Joe
Senior Member
 
Little Joe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: At The Ready
Posts: 4,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyII View Post
Where can I get 9mm HST on the web? Last week, I ordered some .40 from Streicher's, and it arrived in 3 days. However, now they are out of 9mm 147 grain.

Any suggestions for a site to purchase?
http://www.kylesgunshop.com/store.ph...hop&pd=2271514
Little Joe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-26-2011, 02:52   #20
cadillacguns
Senior Member
 
cadillacguns's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Indianapolis, IN USA
Posts: 4,122
Piggy LMK if and when you get some in.........Thanks!
__________________
GLOCKS #1 FAN!!!


"IN GLOCK WE TRUST"
cadillacguns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 08:34   #21
Andy W
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Kansas
Posts: 3,854
How do distributors get HSTs? Isn't it company policy that they only be sold to LE or Gov't agencies? Doesn't that mean, if they are sold to the public, that they are either from a contract overrrun or that they had been rejected for some kind of QC issues? How can we be sure they are not on the market for the latter reason?

I've read posts on various internet forums where people have had problems with Winchester Rangers and Federal HSTs (ie:bad primers, deformed bullets, squibs) which makes me wonder how much of this stuff gets dumped on the commercial market because it was out of spec. However, I can't say I've ever heard of people having these problems with Speer Gold Dots.
Andy W is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-27-2011, 10:30   #22
hotpig
CLM Number 211
IAFF Local 4766
 
hotpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: SW / West Central Illinois
Posts: 4,406


LE Distributors get the ammo from the company. They than sell it direct to Agencies or to certain designated dealers. The leak in the supply chain happens when people want to convert inventory back into cash.

You can find factory seconds but they are marked either by designation or a sticker on the box. Winchester uses the Z and Federal uses XM. Gold Dot reclassifies it from LE use by sticker. I had also seen Federal HST first generation with a similar sticker.

I made a business decision two years ago not to stock any of the seconds just so there would not be any confusion.
__________________
Keep your guns stashed and your powder dry.
hotpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 21:47.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,322
384 Members
938 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42