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Old 11-26-2011, 18:34   #1
kayl
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Taunton police take delivery of new .45-caliber handguns...

http://www.tauntongazette.com/news/x...ice-Department

Great to see a dept. get new, standardized guns, but this article is full of a TON of bad info!

Quote:
“We put heavy emphasis on accuracy,” he said, adding that “a slow hit beats a fast miss,” coining a phrase often employed by TPD Lt. Mike Costa.

A 9mm gun might carry more rounds in its magazine than the M&P45, but it is also inherently less accurate, said Walsh, who said that the old military adage “spray and pray” is not compatible with current police gun technique.
Doh!
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Old 11-26-2011, 18:38   #2
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Nice to see that hardly anything changes.

In 1985, we were told by a councilman that he would never approve .45ACP sidearms because he shot one while in the Army at Fort Dix and they couldn't hit a barn at 25 yards.

I so badly wanted to yell out 'Operator Error!'
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Old 11-26-2011, 18:50   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron View Post
Nice to see that hardly anything changes.

In 1985, we were told by a councilman that he would never approve .45ACP sidearms because he shot one while in the Army at Fort Dix and they couldn't hit a barn at 25 yards.
Not to side track this thread, but I underwent my academy training at Fort Dix. That place is brutally hot in the spring and summer months, and gets arctic cold in the winter.

We still do rifle quals down there from time to time.
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Old 11-26-2011, 19:36   #4
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I love my TRS, and my Glock 21, but how is a 9mm 'inherently' less accurate? Just posturing for media?
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Old 11-26-2011, 19:58   #5
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Originally Posted by RetailNinja View Post
I love my TRS, and my Glock 21, but how is a 9mm 'inherently' less accurate? Just posturing for media?
It is probably posturing for the media, but in general, 9mm parabellum cartidges have histrically been considered to be less inherently accurate due to the slight taper of the 9mm para casing. If the chamber headspace of a 9mm is not well matched to the cartridge casing length, the sides of the casing can actually become quite loose in the chamber (when compared to a straight walled case).

For practical purposes in a police service weapon, it is meaningless, and the taper has some positive qualities as far as the functioning of the weapon, but from a purely academic point of view, the statement is not actually false.
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Old 11-26-2011, 20:10   #6
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It is probably posturing for the media, but in general, 9mm parabellum cartidges have histrically been considered to be less inherently accurate due to the slight taper of the 9mm para casing. If the chamber headspace of a 9mm is not well matched to the cartridge casing length, the sides of the casing can actually become quite loose in the chamber (when compared to a straight walled case).

For practical purposes in a police service weapon, it is meaningless, and the taper has some positive qualities as far as the functioning of the weapon, but from a purely academic point of view, the statement is not actually false.
Interesting, thanks for the info- I did not know that.

I recall reading an article about the Army's pistol marksmanship team switching to 9mm Berettas from .45 1911s and the resultant reduction in group size, but that may have had more to do with the bullet size than inherent accuracy.
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Old 11-26-2011, 21:00   #7
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Interesting, thanks for the info- I did not know that.

I recall reading an article about the Army's pistol marksmanship team switching to 9mm Berettas from .45 1911s and the resultant reduction in group size, but that may have had more to do with the bullet size than inherent accuracy.
I will assume that was the old American Rifleman Article where they reamed out the front of the slides and added a matched tapered bushing to the front of the barrel? As I remember it there were also some set screws in the frame to freeze the rear barrel geometry.

I always believed that USAMU switched to berettas to match their competition weapons to the service issue weapons, which makes sense given that they are really there to promote marksmanship within the Army (as well as serve as a recruitment tool)
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Old 11-26-2011, 21:08   #8
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The 9x19mm cartridge can be very accurate. Find and shoot a SiG P-210-5. They are incredibly accurate in ISU 50 meter matches.

It all depends on the quality of manufacture of the ammo/weapon and the ability of the shooter.

I suspect that the councilperson fool making that claim was of the school of thought that believes more rounds available in a basic weapon load out will lead to 'spray and pray' shooting techniques.

Hopefully, the officers at the PD will enjoy their new pistols. It can be either Christmas or a curse, depending on what is bought and if the officers had any input.
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Old 11-26-2011, 23:26   #9
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but it is also inherently less accurate
What a ******.


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Old 11-27-2011, 04:03   #10
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Taunton has 115 officers?
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:37   #11
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Well if they think this is going to be a fix for improving qualification scores they are mistaken.

Anyhoo, as long as the guys/gals are happy with their new guns that's all that matters. I wonder which .45 load they are running?
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Old 11-27-2011, 04:57   #12
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The only thing about the 9mm that can be a little bad is the fact that they are a lighter bullet. They go further in flight. But, they are not less accurate.
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Old 11-27-2011, 05:23   #13
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Taunton Police Chief Edward Walsh says he decided, after being promoted to chief in 2010, it was high time the department adopt a philosophy of “commonality,” in terms of training and equipment.
Quote:
Walsh said he has since mandated everyone on the force carry the new gun of choice, including himself. In order to set an example, he’s relinquished his Glock 22, a .40-caliber he bought years ago after joining the police force.
“I didn’t like what they issued me,” he explained.
Soooo, he agrees with commonality... unless it's not of his choosing?
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Old 11-27-2011, 14:32   #14
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Despite some misinformation in the article, it seems that the Chief did his homework before making a decision. Whether he is right or wrong by someone else's lights, his due diligence is not the norm in the police world, and should be acknowledged.
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Old 11-27-2011, 21:31   #15
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Many departments are making the switch to 9mm pistols because they are easier for the average cop to shoot. It seems strange to switch to .45.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:13   #16
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Many departments are making the switch to 9mm pistols because they are easier for the average cop to shoot. It seems strange to switch to .45.

They are switching because of two primary reasons - one, because 9mm ammo is cheaper to buy per unit and two, because it allows insufficiently live fire trained officers to maintain their scores and certifications when range training is cut to the minimums.

The first reason is a valid one, but there is no viable reason to cut firearms range time on the admin bet that officers are not likely to be involved in a lethal use of force incident over a given period of time.

If an officer/deputy/trooper wants a 9mm - fine, as long as quality ammo is used, but going to easier to shoot weapons because of training and range cutbacks borders on the criminal. Cut out the "executive retreats", the out of state admin training, take home vehicles for people not on call, etc.

Some chiefs actually are gun people and understand what it takes for the street cop to do their job. An easier to shoot weapon does not make an officer more effective. If they did, we'd all be carrying Walther OSP .22 Short rapid fire target pistols.
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Old 11-28-2011, 06:23   #17
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I suspect that because the Mass State Police are switching the the M&P 45 it might have had something to do with it also.

Last edited by MAGlock; 11-28-2011 at 06:23..
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:06   #18
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MSP is switching too? Well now, that is interesting . . . .
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Old 11-28-2011, 14:10   #19
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From a practical standpoint it was inherently dangerous. Walsh cites a nightmare scenario wherein a cop, during a shoot-out, runs out of ammunition and is handed bullets by a fellow officer that either don’t fit the gun’s magazine, or do fit but can’t be fired.
This has never happened.
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Old 11-28-2011, 14:17   #20
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This has never happened.

In my entire career in LE, I never encountered a Banzai charge by either criminal litters or mass murderers.

This argument is the biggest strawman argument in firearms selection by administrators. There are valid arguments to be made for standardized weapons by an agency, but the "Tarawa/Chosin/Khe Sanh" scenario is not one of them.
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Old 11-28-2011, 16:03   #21
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Quote:
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This has never happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron View Post
In my entire career in LE, I never encountered a Banzai charge by either criminal litters or mass murderers.

This argument is the biggest strawman argument in firearms selection by administrators. There are valid arguments to be made for standardized weapons by an agency, but the "Tarawa/Chosin/Khe Sanh" scenario is not one of them.
I agree that standardization for the sake of sharing ammunition is a stupid argument. I recognize that the potential exists for an officer to run out of ammunition, especially in rural areas with small agencies. HOWEVER, when the average officer is carrying just two spare magazines, I cannot see giving up 33% of my ammunition capacity and 50% of my spare magazines. When you factor in shooter preference and ability, I would rather have everybody carry what best suits them and what they are best able to utilize and thereby decrease the risk that they would ever run out of ammunition in the first place.

I think that magazine standardization on the rifle platform is much more logical because of the capacity of the magazines, the number of magazines that might be carried, and the fact that many weapons systems already use the same magazines (AR-15, AUG clones, ACR, SCAR-L, G36, etc, etc, etc). The AR-15 platform is also so inherently modular that you can usually adapt the platform to the shooter and mission as needed.
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Old 11-30-2011, 08:41   #22
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Taunton went to M&P 45s and so is Mass State Police.

The recoil of the M&P 45 is quite controllable even by those that only shoot 100 rds/year (annual qualification) . . . which in MA is most LEOs.

When I joined my PD back in the late 1970s, the chief gave me the commonality of ammo line "in case a fellow officer ran out" too. Having seen most of them shoot and qualified with them over the years, no way in hell I'd give up my ammo and leave myself with less protection!
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:13   #23
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Standardization for sharing.

I know everyone on my department will not give up their ammo they need just because someone else prematurely ejaculated theirs all over the scene.
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Old 11-30-2011, 10:49   #24
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Rich Grassi posted his thoughts about this . . .

http://www.thetacticalwire.com/ (at the bottom)
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Old 11-30-2011, 11:04   #25
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In my experience the .45 is a tougher gun for the average officer to shoot. They will be inundated the old "it kicks like a mule" and "you can't hit s*** with it" anecdotes and some will seize on that as the reason for poor scores. The fact is that some officers will practice to learn thier new weapon, but most won't. They'll blame the gun, the holster, the weather, God, or whatever else is handy. The department will experience lower qualification scores and will look for a scape-goat. Color me cynical, sorry.
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