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Old 11-30-2011, 13:43   #1
jr05
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124gr MG and WSF

Alright, now that I have broken the ice with all my FCD and Tightgroup talk...I wanted to get some confirmation on loads.

I have been convinced to go with WSF powder to start...and I will be using MG 124grain bullets, most likely their FMJ bullets, in 9m Luger.

Here is the recipe I am going to start with and work up from there.

4.7gr WSF
COL 1.15"
Winchester Cases
WSP Primers

The manual from Hodgdon says 1.169" COL, I am assuming that is the max, but they do not list a min. My plan is to make a couple dummy rounds and drop them in my barrel (G34) to make sure they fit/cycle from magazines correctly.

If this is too long, how short can I safely go without issues? From what I have seen, it looks like 1.10 is about the min I would want to go?

Last edited by jr05; 11-30-2011 at 14:01.. Reason: 9mm
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Old 11-30-2011, 13:58   #2
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OAL is always bullet & gun specific. So if loading near max, you will have to adjust your powder charge. You should be fine starting there.
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Old 11-30-2011, 14:11   #3
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1.169" is the maximum allowable length per SAMMI standards. I was disappointed to see Hodgdon use that number because there is certainly a question in my mind whether the cartridges will fit in a magazine. It is particularly problematic if the bullet has a flat point.

I loaded some MG 147 gr CMJ to 1.150" and they fed just fine but there isn't a lot of daylight between the bullet and the front edge of the magazine.

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Old 11-30-2011, 15:23   #4
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I use 124gn Precision Delta over 4.9 - 5.0 gns of WSF at 1.150. They load just fine in both my Star BM and CZ Rami 9mm's with no issues. It is a solid shooting round.
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Old 11-30-2011, 15:26   #5
jr05
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Figures I would go with a powder that Hodgdon just lists everythings COL as 1.169 (regardless of bullet...anything with WSF is 1.169 in 9mm).

Every other powder on that list has a value that makes sense, 1.14, 1.01, 1.125, etc...not just listed as the maximum allowed.
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Old 11-30-2011, 15:37   #6
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Non of those OAL's matter... you have to load based on your specific barrel or cylinder. Don't worry about published OAL's they are merely a rough guide.


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Old 11-30-2011, 16:00   #7
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^That is what I was hoping.

I will stick with my plan of dummy rounds at 1.150" and test chambering/feeding. If that works I will make up a small box and give them a try. Then decrease COL/increase charge if needed to meet PF or to tweak accuracy. I can already tell this hobby is going to suck up a lot of my time, but I think I will enjoy it greatly.
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Old 11-30-2011, 17:20   #8
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I use Berry's 124gr on 4.9 WSF, about 1.145-1.150 OAL... it's one of my favorite rounds.

*as always, don't use anyone's recipe without proper loading/testing/workups.

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Old 11-30-2011, 17:30   #9
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I use a 1.130 OAL on my 9 mm but I'm using a 147gr Precision Delta bullet. and 4.3gr of Unique.
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Last edited by rpgman; 11-30-2011 at 17:34..
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Old 11-30-2011, 17:31   #10
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Sorry for double post
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Last edited by rpgman; 11-30-2011 at 17:33..
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Old 11-30-2011, 17:39   #11
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Originally Posted by jr05 View Post
^That is what I was hoping.

I will stick with my plan of dummy rounds at 1.150" and test chambering/feeding. If that works I will make up a small box and give them a try. Then decrease COL/increase charge if needed to meet PF or to tweak accuracy. I can already tell this hobby is going to suck up a lot of my time, but I think I will enjoy it greatly.
Yea but we all love it

Especially the shootin part.
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Old 11-30-2011, 19:24   #12
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I just measured up a few winchester white box rounds that I have been shooting for the last few years with great success in all of my 9mms. The averaged about 1.157". I don't think I will have an issue with my intended length of 1.150-1.155"
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Old 11-30-2011, 23:14   #13
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If you don't go by some of the published A.O.L.'s you might end up being a rough guide like Jack.
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Old 12-01-2011, 00:25   #14
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COL in the manuals is the COL they used with their chambers. It is either to be taken as the MINIMUM COL to safely use the data (shorter COL will raise pressure and you will hit max pressure sooner) or it is the MAXIMUM that SAAMI has established for the industry to test. It has virtually NO bearing on your gun.
Has any one READ the manuals (see ABC's of Reloading) when they talk about COL? It seems that few loaders know how to determine the best COL for their guns.
This is what Ramshot and Accurate say in their load data:
SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load.
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Old 12-01-2011, 07:39   #15
jr05
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noylj View Post
COL in the manuals is the COL they used with their chambers. It is either to be taken as the MINIMUM COL to safely use the data (shorter COL will raise pressure and you will hit max pressure sooner) or it is the MAXIMUM that SAAMI has established for the industry to test. It has virtually NO bearing on your gun.
Has any one READ the manuals (see ABC's of Reloading) when they talk about COL? It seems that few loaders know how to determine the best COL for their guns.
This is what Ramshot and Accurate say in their load data:
SPECIAL NOTE ON CARTRIDGE OVERALL LENGTH “COL”
It is important to note that the SAAMI “COL” values are for the firearms and ammunition manufacturers industry and must be seen as a guideline only.
The individual reloader is free to adjust this dimension to suit their particular firearm-component-weapon combination.
This parameter is determined by various dimensions such as
1) magazine length (space),
2) freebore-lead dimensions of the barrel,
3) ogive or profile of the projectile and
4) position of cannelure or crimp groove.
• Always begin loading at the minimum "Start Load".
• Watch for signs of excessive pressure.
• Increase in 2% increments towards the Maximum Load.
• Never exceed the Maximum Load.
Thank you noylj, this IS how I intend to figure out COL when testing in my gun/magazine.

However, why would the companies list it only as the MAX allowable by SAAMI? At the very least why would the companies not test them at a max AND min length with max and min powders in each? With my limited knowledge I would think the most important would be Min lengths since the pressure would be greater. The max really only effects how the cartridge fits in the magazine/chamber/cylinder (and ensuring the bullet is set into the case enough of course). I guess I just assumed there would be more data provided with regards to this, since it seems important.
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Old 12-01-2011, 09:49   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jr05 View Post
However, why would the companies list it only as the MAX allowable by SAAMI? At the very least why would the companies not test them at a max AND min length with max and min powders in each? With my limited knowledge I would think the most important would be Min lengths since the pressure would be greater. The max really only effects how the cartridge fits in the magazine/chamber/cylinder (and ensuring the bullet is set into the case enough of course). I guess I just assumed there would be more data provided with regards to this, since it seems important.
I assume powder manufacturers usually post short OAL so they can show how little of their powder it takes. I would think sometimes they get lazy and just post the SAAMI max instead of actual tested OAL. I find the posted mfg OAL too short and keep a record of my own loads. I like to read what others have found to be useful and start from there.

I think the mfg's take advantage of the knowledge of reloaders to -TEST- their loads, length, pressure, etc. Again, all this stuff is just GUIDELINE.

Have fun!
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:02   #17
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I have played around with a similar load and had good results. 4.6gr of WSF behind a 124gr Zero RN bullet with an OAL of 1.125" and a crimp of 0.378".

This was a really accurate load out of a Tanfoglio but sadly not the most nimble recoil impulse I have ever felt.

Though not the best load I have ever shot, it was one that performed well. For me, SOLO 1000 and 147gr bullets is the cat's meow; liking it even better than a similar load using VV N320 (which seems to be the powder everyone raves about).
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:08   #18
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I assume powder manufacturers usually post short OAL so they can show how little of their powder it takes.
You may be surprised to find out the, even small variations in OAL, will have significant impact on your pistol's accuracy. I thought that this was only observable in rifle loads but I started playing with it on pistol ammunition and found out that the it works just a well on these.

I used to load all my pistol rounds as long as I could (so that they would still fit and feed reliably from the magazines) but I later discovered that sometimes a shorter OAL produces significantly better accuracy than a longer OAL. In my G34 1.125" to 1.130" works better than the old 1.155" that I used to load to. Each gun is different so you may want to experiment a little bit and note your results.
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Old 12-01-2011, 10:19   #19
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You may be surprised to find out the, even small variations in OAL, will have significant impact on your pistol's accuracy. I thought that this was only observable in rifle loads but I started playing with it on pistol ammunition and found out that the it works just a well on these.

I used to load all my pistol rounds as long as I could (so that they would still fit and feed reliably from the magazines) but I later discovered that sometimes a shorter OAL produces significantly better accuracy than a longer OAL. In my G34 1.125" to 1.130" works better than the old 1.155" that I used to load to. Each gun is different so you may want to experiment a little bit and note your results.
yep, I agree...I have found in both my G34 and G17, 1.125" to 1.130" works best using a 147gr Precision Delta bullet and 4.3gr of Unique.

Also, in my G27, 1.130" also works best with a 165gr Precision Delta bullet with 6.1gr of Unique.
Greg
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Old 12-01-2011, 13:20   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cysoto View Post
I used to load all my pistol rounds as long as I could (so that they would still fit and feed reliably from the magazines) but I later discovered that sometimes a shorter OAL produces significantly better accuracy than a longer OAL. In my G34 1.125" to 1.130" works better than the old 1.155" that I used to load to. Each gun is different so you may want to experiment a little bit and note your results.
This is more likey due to raising pressures a bit & getting a better powder combustion, making the load more uniform. To verify that, add 0.1gr more powder to your load & go back to trhe longer OAL & see if anything changes. I have rarely exp an significant accuracy by playing w/ OAL in handgun rounds.
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Last edited by fredj338; 12-01-2011 at 13:21..
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