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Old 12-17-2011, 16:21   #161
Jerry
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Originally Posted by eracer View Post
Simple.

I've said it before in this thread. (I even highlighted the words in one post...)

Constitutional protections apply to 'free men.'
'The People' refers to citizens who are 'free men.'
for the least intelligent answer so far.

IhRedrider did you actually expect a rational answer to any of those questions?
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Old 12-17-2011, 17:19   #162
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eracer

Quote:
Constitutional protections apply to 'free men.'
'The People' refers to citizens who are 'free men.'
What, according to the Constitution, then is 'free man'?

Are you a 'free man'?

Am I a 'free man'?

What would cause me to lose my status as 'free man'?

Who would make the determination as to whether I had lost my status as a 'free man'?

If I had lost my status as 'free man', could I regain it and how?

Could you answer these questions please? I will also note that you did not answer my last post questions. I still would like to hear your answers to them.

Thanks again, in advance.
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Old 12-18-2011, 02:01   #163
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Originally Posted by WarCry View Post
And, for the record, according the Constitution, the Supreme Court IS the final word on what the Constitution means. The are the arbitrators of the word of law. THAT is what the Founders wanted, and that's what they're doing right now.
Could you cite in the Constitution where it says the Supreme Court is the final word on what the Constitution means?
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Old 12-18-2011, 06:29   #164
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Originally Posted by IhRedrider View Post
eracer



What, according to the Constitution, then is 'free man'?

The constitution did not define it as far as I know. But of course the constitution is not the sum of all laws, and the phrase was well understood in the time of the framers. The phrase 'The People' referred to law-abiding 'citizens.' 'Citizen' at the time, did not include slaves. Thankfully, we've eliminated that class distinction.

Are you a 'free man'?

Yes - I am neither a felon, nor deemed mentally ill by any authority that matters.)

Am I a 'free man'?

I don't know.

What would cause me to lose my status as 'free man'?

Criminal activity, sedition, treason, etc.

Who would make the determination as to whether I had lost my status as a 'free man'?

Legal definition. If you are in prison, you are no longer a 'free man.' If you are out of prison you may be defined as a felon. If you are felon, you are not a free man. I know what you're fishing for, and no, I don't believe that all felons should be barred from owning guns. Violent recidivist criminals, however, have chosen to infringe upon the rights of other free men. The laws exist (and rightly so) to reduce their ability to purchase a gun. It would certainly be better for society in general if we could guarantee that they were rehabilitated or permanently imprisoned, but (repeating myself again) that's a fantasy, a dream, wishful thinking that all who support the concept of unregulated Natural Law share in.

If I had lost my status as 'free man', could I regain it and how?

If you gave up a kidney, could you get it back?

Could you answer these questions please? I will also note that you did not answer my last post questions. I still would like to hear your answers to them.

Actually, I did answer them.

Thanks again, in advance.
Can you answer a question for me? Would you allow a murderer the right to buy a machine gun at Wal-Mart without any restrictions on the purchase?

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
-- Thomas Jefferson

And with that, I bid this thread adieu.... Merry Christmas, Happy Hannukah.
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Last edited by eracer; 12-18-2011 at 06:54..
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Old 12-18-2011, 08:18   #165
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Who would make the determination as to whether I had lost my status as a 'free man'?

Legal definition. If you are in prison, you are no longer a 'free man.' If you are out of prison you may be defined as a felon. If you are felon, you are not a free man. I know what you're fishing for, and no, I don't believe that all felons should be barred from owning guns. Violent recidivist criminals, however, have chosen to infringe upon the rights of other free men. The laws exist (and rightly so) to reduce their ability to purchase a gun. It would certainly be better for society in general if we could guarantee that they were rehabilitated or permanently imprisoned, but (repeating myself again) that's a fantasy, a dream, wishful thinking that all who support the concept of unregulated Natural Law share in.

If I had lost my status as 'free man', could I regain it and how?

If you gave up a kidney, could you get it back?

Could you answer these questions please? I will also note that you did not answer my last post questions. I still would like to hear your answers to them.

Actually, I did answer them.
OK, correct me if I am wrong. I think you said that anyone who is a citizen, not in prison, and not a particular version of a convicted felon who is now legally free on the street, is a 'free man'.

I will answer your question first. I have absolutely no LEGAL problem with a convicted murderer, who has paid his dues as prescribed by the Justice system, buying any weapon at Wal-mart or anywhere else.

I do have a HUGE problem with a CONVICTED murderer ever walking the streets. A convicted murderer should be put to death, that is what is just. Do NOT violate my RIGHTS because the Justice system is broken. FIX the damn system. Two wrongs don't make a right.

Quote:
Legal definition. If you are in prison, you are no longer a 'free man.'
I think this is a dangerous and sweeping statement that need some evaluation. If you are accused and arrested for some crime then placed in prison. Have you lost your status as a 'free man'? If you have you no longer have the RIGHT to free speech, and ALL the other RIGHTS documented in the Constitution. Is that what you believe or want? I think that this line of reasoning will quickly lead to tyranny, slavery and misery. I think you can see this in such things as "the patriot bill" and others that are coming our way.

Quote:
If I had lost my status as 'free man', could I regain it and how?

If you gave up a kidney, could you get it back?
That did not even answer anything. Even worse, it compares the willing gift of a kidney to someone revoking a 'free man's' RIGHTS. Please try again, or just tell me you are not going to answer a question.

Quote:
Could you answer these questions please? I will also note that you did not answer my last post questions. I still would like to hear your answers to them.

Actually, I did answer them.
These were the questions, I did not see where they were answered.

Quote:
1. How is a "dangerous criminal" defined in the Constitution?
2. What standards do YOU think need to be applied to determine if someone is a "dangerous criminal"?
3. Who do you think needs to be the person responsible to decide who meets the qualifications of "dangerous criminal"?
4. Even harder, I want to know the answer to the previous questions as they pertain to "insane person" instead of "dangerous criminal"?
5. If someone was determined "dangerous criminal" or "insane person" is there some mechanism for them to appeal this categorization, and who would they appeal to?
I would like to know what your answers for these questions are, thanks again in advance.

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Old 12-18-2011, 08:22   #166
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The only gun control I want to see is the placement of the second shot.

+1

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Old 12-18-2011, 09:19   #167
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Originally Posted by eracer View Post
Can you answer a question for me? Would you allow a murderer the right to buy a machine gun at Wal-Mart without any restrictions on the purchase?
'Murderer' is a nice, emotionally-laden word. Some use it to describe a home-owner who kills a couple of armed home-invaders. In that case, yes, I would support that person's right to walk into a WalMart and buy a brand-new M4 without any background checks or paperwork. I'd also say that he had ample justification for the purchase!

Now, I suppose that use of 'murderer' was not your intent. So let's suppose the scenario you I suspect you envision. A person convicted of brutally raping three young women and then slowly torturing them to death is now the subject of your inquiry. The fact that this person can even walk into a Walmart is the travesty here. Not whether he can buy a firearm.

I'll state again. If a person is too dangerous to be permitted to have firearms, why are they walking our streets? THAT is the issue, not gun control.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:49   #168
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Originally Posted by Dukedomone View Post
Could you cite in the Constitution where it says the Supreme Court is the final word on what the Constitution means?


Constitutional ”INTERPRETATION” in 5,4,3,2.
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Old 12-18-2011, 13:06   #169
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I'll state again. If a person is too dangerous to be permitted to have firearms, why are they walking our streets? THAT is the issue, not gun control.
But, but killing them is too cruel and we can’t afford to keep them all in prison. All Free Men should be willing to give up any and all rights so these poor misunderstood people can be allowed to “freely” walk among us. I also have several bridges and some swampland in Arizona for sale. Now please excuse me while I go hug a tree.

That sarcasm is not directed at you but rather at the gun control idiots.
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Old 12-18-2011, 13:19   #170
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Simply answer. NO!!
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:29   #171
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Clearly gun conrols didn't prevent this guy from committing horrific murder:
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1388473



But it did prevent this ccw licensed GT member from picking up a firearm for Christmas.
http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1388599
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:09   #172
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You're correct that doesn't make you liberal. What makes you sond like a liberal is you’re totally misinformed don’t have a clue what you’re talking about but actually believe you do. Someone with a “history” of violence has one right denied and not one “privilege”. He can purchase any number of lethal products but not a gun. Your belief that that actually affords people safety from a violent individual is pure idiocy.

Here's proof that yoy are totall misinformed. I've been on this board since befor the incesption of NISC. I voiced my objection to it before it was actually put into operation. I was totally against NICS from the beginning. As I posted earlier I KNEW it would be FUBAR just like every other gummyment run program. I also KNEW it was unconstitutional. If you had done any research before posting you wouldn’t be coming across as having your head up your but.

I did not start having a hold put on me until five years ago. I purchased many forearms through NICS before that so I’m not against it JUST BECAUSE I personally now have a problem. I’ve had more than 10 people in the last five years tell me that they have the same problem. And no they aren’t criminals. One actually sells firearms at Cabellas but has a HOLD every time he purchases one.

My brother is not a felon and he didn’t use my name.

Get your head out of your but and do some research. Or you can keep showing everyone your lack of intellect.
Must have been someone elses brother.

By the way, you spell butt with two t's.

So in 5 years you found 10 people who have problems bying a gun right? That's an acceptable risk to me. Did I ever say that it kept the guns out of criminals hands? Could you point that at to me if I did? Being uniformed doesn't make someone a liberal, as you point out every time you post. I know we have the right to life-but that doesn't make the death penalty unconstitutional. We have the right to liberty, but that doesn't mean prisons, quarenteens or mental institutions are unconstitutional. Or does it Jerry?

Your assertion that a criminal can buy other lethal objects is just a bad point Jerry. It really just makes you look like a raving idiot. Not that you are one, it just makes you look like one. In the right hands a q-tip could probably be lethal. Don't get me wrong, I think everyone has the right to buy a q-tip any time they want, even without a background check.

You say the NICS is FUBAR, yet in 5 years you could only find 10 people who are having a problem with it? There are roughly 38,356 guns sold a day in the US and you know 5 whole people that are affected by NICS and it's not working? I think you're delusional man. According to the BATF there were 71,010 initial denial in 2009. That's only .5% or 1 in 200 checks. Of those, all but 4,681 had a 3 day or less wait. Of those who had to wait longer around 1/2 were not legally supposed to have a gun for whatever reason. So about 2,300 people had to wait more than 3 days to get then gun that they should have legally walked out the door with. Again, that's an acceptable risk to me. Of course I don't "need" anymore guns. There are guns I would like to have, but a 3 or even 7 day wait isn't going to kill me. Sure it would be a pain, but so are a lot of things. So of the 14,000,000 background checks .017% are false positives that have to wait more than 3 days. That's 17 people in every 100,000. I can accept that, and think most resonable people can too.

So the guy at Cabelas has a hold every time he buys a gun, right? So he has more than one gun then, right? He eventually get's the gun he's trying to buy, right? So if a zombie appocolips happens he can just run to the closet or gun cabinet/safe and get one, right?

So if you are driving down the interstate and have to stop at a sobriety check point or pay money at a toll booth is your right to travel being infringed? What about a stop light? Does that infringe on your persuit of happieness? What about if your trying to catch up to a really hot chick? Is your persuit of happieness infringed by the speed limit?
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:16   #173
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I will say it again.

Any law that relates to the purchase of firearms is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Pure and simple. The right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

For the sake of this discussion, it does not matter what you think is OK, what you are willing to allow, or what laws you would deem admissable. The fact is that anything that contradicts the "shall not be infringed" part or the 2A is by definition UNCONSTITUTIONAL. We have a process for changing that amendment but the current laws regarding firearms simply circumvent that.
Do you pay sales tax when you buy a gun? If so you are paying more than the manufacturer or shop intended. Wouldn't a sales tax be an infringement?
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:30   #174
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But, but killing them is too cruel and we can’t afford to keep them all in prison. All Free Men should be willing to give up any and all rights so these poor misunderstood people can be allowed to “freely” walk among us. I also have several bridges and some swampland in Arizona for sale. Now please excuse me while I go hug a tree.

That sarcasm is not directed at you but rather at the gun control idiots.

You guys seem to be living in some dream world that says that everything right will always be done. If that were true we wouldn't have a use for guns.

The truth is that dangerous people walk the streets because of our panzy a-- PC world. I think the rapist should be put down like a rabid dog and the cold blooded murderers should be publically hung. The sad truth is that it doesn't happen and those guys walk the streets. So you think they should be able to have guns becuase they walk the streets?
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:52   #175
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Originally Posted by bandmasterjf View Post
...
So the guy at Cabelas has a hold every time he buys a gun, right? So he has more than one gun then, right? He eventually get's the gun he's trying to buy, right? So if a zombie appocolips happens he can just run to the closet or gun cabinet/safe and get one, right?

So if you are driving down the interstate and have to stop at a sobriety check point or pay money at a toll booth is your right to travel being infringed? What about a stop light? Does that infringe on your persuit of happieness? What about if your trying to catch up to a really hot chick? Is your persuit of happieness infringed by the speed limit?
I think your operating under the premise that just because most gun control laws don't currently seem to bother you personally, than that means everything is ok. It's a common thing for people to try to put things in context of thier own life. It's the same reason why Steve Lee doesn't see the gun restrictions in Austrailia as oppressive, even though they are.

The right to travel is not constitutionally protected. Right to pursue happiness ends at harming others.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:54   #176
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Do you pay sales tax when you buy a gun? If so you are paying more than the manufacturer or shop intended. Wouldn't a sales tax be an infringement?
Good point. No tax should be levied on the sale of firearms.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:00   #177
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Originally Posted by bandmasterjf View Post
You guys seem to be living in some dream world that says that everything right will always be done. If that were true we wouldn't have a use for guns.

The truth is that dangerous people walk the streets because of our panzy a-- PC world. I think the rapist should be put down like a rabid dog and the cold blooded murderers should be publically hung. The sad truth is that it doesn't happen and those guys walk the streets. So you think they should be able to have guns becuase they walk the streets?
You seem to be living in a dream world where gun laws actually prevent criminals from being able to have weapons and/or do harm to others.

The only people laws can stop are people who chose to abide by them... Law abiding citizens.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:06   #178
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I exhibit great gun control. Even in rapid fire. Hehe

Buy seriously now folks, no absolutely not. The armed citizens of this country is was makes us unable to invade. Why limit your best defense in the country, our citizens.

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Old 12-19-2011, 10:17   #179
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I think your operating under the premise that just because most gun control laws don't currently seem to bother you personally, than that means everything is ok. It's a common thing for people to try to put things in context of thier own life. It's the same reason why Steve Lee doesn't see the gun restrictions in Austrailia as oppressive, even though they are.

The right to travel is not constitutionally protected. Right to pursue happiness ends at harming others.
No I'm operating under the premise that 0.0017% is an acceptable number of people being inconvenienced to make guns less accessable to people who shouldn't have them.
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:23   #180
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You seem to be living in a dream world where gun laws actually prevent criminals from being able to have weapons and/or do harm to others.

The only people laws can stop are people who chose to abide by them... Law abiding citizens.
So you didn't answer my question. Should anyone allowed to walk the streets be allowed to buy a gun here?

When did I say that? You and Jerry seem to live in a dream world where criminals are either killed or locked up for life. I simply think there should be something in place to make it harder for them to get a gun. I would rather see them locked up, but they aren't. You've got to do the next best thing then...........try.
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