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Old 12-10-2011, 17:36   #251
Sharky7
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Originally Posted by RyanBDawg View Post
The reason that the addicts use so much is because I am willing to bet that it is a very diluted form of heroin cut with god knows what, therefore they have to shoot much more to acquire the same high that they need when compared to a purer form of heroin..
Heroin is almost always "cut" with dormin or actifed. Those are your most common cuts for white powder heroin. The cut is put in partially to relieve itching and also to increase profits for the dealers.

Your statement does not make sense. Heroin is the purest it has ever been in US history.
"Street heroin is rarely pure. A "bag," or single dose, may contain 50 milligrams of powder. In the past, very few of those milligrams were likely to be heroin—most of the bag was filled with such additives as milk sugar, powdered milk, or quinine. In 1980, the average bag was only 4 percent pure heroin. By the mid-Nineties, however, purity was generally 40 percent or higher. In the Northeast, it averaged between 60 and 75 percent."
http://www.acde.org/common/Heroin.htm

The heroin you see on the street right now is the best it has ever been and the best it will ever be. A "bag" of heroin weighs 0.2 grams - next to nothing...it's a very small amount of powder. Yet, a full bag of current day heroin injected IV can be enough to cause an OD in a first time user of low weight with no opiate tolerance built up. It can't get anymore potent there buddy.

This would be like me telling a mechanic what he is doing wrong when he is replacing my timing belt and re-building my transmission when I have never been under the hood of a car.

Last edited by Sharky7; 12-10-2011 at 18:13..
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Old 12-10-2011, 20:06   #252
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What is your experience? Where do you get these statements from?

I don't think it's fair to compare alcohol and cannabis with heroin and cocaine. Just like we don't compare meth to caffeine.
I'm not comparing alcohol to heroin. I'm comparing the insanity of one prohibition to another.

What we have here is one of two things:

a. You are so close to the trees that you can't see the forest.
b. You are of limited intellectual capacity.
c. Both a and b

I tend to think it's likely a.
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Old 12-11-2011, 04:19   #253
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Heroin is almost always "cut" with dormin or actifed. Those are your most common cuts for white powder heroin. The cut is put in partially to relieve itching and also to increase profits for the dealers.

Your statement does not make sense. Heroin is the purest it has ever been in US history.
"Street heroin is rarely pure. A "bag," or single dose, may contain 50 milligrams of powder. In the past, very few of those milligrams were likely to be heroin—most of the bag was filled with such additives as milk sugar, powdered milk, or quinine. In 1980, the average bag was only 4 percent pure heroin. By the mid-Nineties, however, purity was generally 40 percent or higher. In the Northeast, it averaged between 60 and 75 percent."
http://www.acde.org/common/Heroin.htm

The heroin you see on the street right now is the best it has ever been and the best it will ever be. A "bag" of heroin weighs 0.2 grams - next to nothing...it's a very small amount of powder. Yet, a full bag of current day heroin injected IV can be enough to cause an OD in a first time user of low weight with no opiate tolerance built up. It can't get anymore potent there buddy.

This would be like me telling a mechanic what he is doing wrong when he is replacing my timing belt and re-building my transmission when I have never been under the hood of a car.
Ok, but you still haven't answered the question.. What would you do about the "war on drugs"..

You must admit that it is a) A complete failure and b) Has caused more harm than good..

Obviously you have admitted than in large areas, like Chicago, you cannot put people in prison for possession of drugs.. Therefore it simply dissolves into fines, court dates, etc.. One pays the fine and moves on.. A money making scheme for the government..

Even with incarceration rates at their highest level ever, drug related violence has never been higher when it comes to cartels.. Mexico is literally at a state of civil war over who will control the drug trade for the US..

There will always be drug addicts.. I say we pass laws that move the majority of harm caused by drug use onto the drug addict, rather than have society, and innocent people suffer because of someones addiction.

Let me give you my idea if I could pass the laws..

I would make all drugs legal to posses.. "Soft" drugs would be made available at certain areas like alcohol is today.. Age restrictions would be strictly enforced and any business found to be violating these regulations would have their license revoked, no second chances.. Law enforcement patrols would be stepped up in these areas, people would be informed that if they behaved in a civilized manner, then there would be no problems.. But if they behaved like an idiot while under the influence of alcohol or anything else, a zero tolerance policy would be enforced and off to jail they would go..

"Hard" drugs, would be sold at clinics, such as methadone is today.. All "hard" drugs such as heroin, opiates, etc would be sold at a minimal price at the clinic and consumed while on the property, clean needles would be given and disposed of.. Also I would ensure that volunteer's were available (preferably former addicts who got clean) to give information to every addict that comes in about treatment and recovery..

We must end this idiotic "war" on drugs, and start handing off the problem of addiction to individuals instead of the whole of society..

By doing this it would allow police officers to focus on things like murder, rape, etc instead of enforcing impossible drug laws..
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Last edited by RyanBDawg; 12-11-2011 at 04:25..
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Old 12-11-2011, 07:06   #254
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I'm not comparing alcohol to heroin. I'm comparing the insanity of one prohibition to another.

What we have here is one of two things:

a. You are so close to the trees that you can't see the forest.
b. You are of limited intellectual capacity.
c. Both a and b

I tend to think it's likely a.
You still not have answered what your experience is, why not?

You also keep trying to hurl unfounded insults instead of putting up intelligent conversation or facts to support your claims. Calm down and come back with a response that supports your claims. No reason to hurl insults because someone does not agree with you - grow up.
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Old 12-11-2011, 07:30   #255
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I wouldn't say the war on drugs have failed just like I wouldn't say the laws on DUI have failed. People are going to drink and drive - people are going to use drugs. It's about harm reduction and management if a better society.

I am not opposed to another look at the cannabis laws. It's basically legal in states with the medical cards. Might as well open it up - but still not tolerate DUI aspects obviously. I rarely if ever see property crime or violent crime on the street level related to cannabis except for gang argument about street area dealing ownership.

I am still not a fan if legalizing heroin or cocaine. I think it would put more of a stress on our society. Addicts will always need money for their fix. Coke and heroin are not similar to weed, I do see lots of crime involved with users who will do crazy things to get their money for the drug. To the current users, there is already lots of easy access to their drugs. Lots of open air drug markets...it is not the difficulty of finding the drug, it is the difficulty of obtaining money for the drug which turns people to crime. I am not willing and I don't think our voting public is willing to supply these drugs for free. The overwhelming majority of my arrestees are already receiving gov money anyways which they abuse to buy dope.

Heroin is a wild drug. Once you have a tolerance built and you are physically and psychologically dependent, you would be surprised what people do. It's easy to find it - they always need they money to get it though.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:11   #256
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You still not have answered what your experience is, why not?

You also keep trying to hurl unfounded insults instead of putting up intelligent conversation or facts to support your claims. Calm down and come back with a response that supports your claims. No reason to hurl insults because someone does not agree with you - grow up.
Experience in what?

BTW, I'm not hurling insults. Just trying to figure out why you can't seem to get your mind around the bigger picture.
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Old 12-11-2011, 08:19   #257
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I wouldn't say the war on drugs have failed just like I wouldn't say the laws on DUI have failed. People are going to drink and drive - people are going to use drugs. It's about harm reduction and management if a better society.

I am not opposed to another look at the cannabis laws. It's basically legal in states with the medical cards. Might as well open it up - but still not tolerate DUI aspects obviously. I rarely if ever see property crime or violent crime on the street level related to cannabis except for gang argument about street area dealing ownership.

I am still not a fan if legalizing heroin or cocaine. I think it would put more of a stress on our society. Addicts will always need money for their fix. Coke and heroin are not similar to weed, I do see lots of crime involved with users who will do crazy things to get their money for the drug. To the current users, there is already lots of easy access to their drugs. Lots of open air drug markets...it is not the difficulty of finding the drug, it is the difficulty of obtaining money for the drug which turns people to crime. I am not willing and I don't think our voting public is willing to supply these drugs for free. The overwhelming majority of my arrestees are already receiving gov money anyways which they abuse to buy dope.

Heroin is a wild drug. Once you have a tolerance built and you are physically and psychologically dependent, you would be surprised what people do. It's easy to find it - they always need they money to get it though.
Well there ya go. DUI laws are among society's dumbest passions.

You still haven't addressed any of the analogies to ethanol prohibition, btw.
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Old 12-11-2011, 11:43   #258
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Experience in what?

BTW, I'm not hurling insults. Just trying to figure out why you can't seem to get your mind around the bigger picture.
Experience with drugs, drug addicts, courts, law enforcement, drug court, rehab facilities, etc. Anything that would give experience with this subject matter.

Re-read your posts. 2 jabs you have thrown out. People have differing opinions, that is what is great about our country. The big picture in my view is consistent with my views. You have not explained any rationale behind your views other that jabs and blanket statements without facts or experience.
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Old 12-11-2011, 11:47   #259
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Well there ya go. DUI laws are among society's dumbest passions.

You still haven't addressed any of the analogies to ethanol prohibition, btw.
Alcohol prohibition is a mistake in my opinion. But, you can't compare alcohol prohibition to heroin or coke. That is why some drugs are over the counter and some are prescription. I wouldn't compare cannabis to heroin or coke either though.

Each have different effects on individuals and society.
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Old 12-11-2011, 14:59   #260
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Alcohol prohibition is a mistake in my opinion. But, you can't compare alcohol prohibition to heroin or coke. That is why some drugs are over the counter and some are prescription. I wouldn't compare cannabis to heroin or coke either though.

Each have different effects on individuals and society.
But why? We all know that alcohol has a much worse effect on socket than heroin or cocaine combined! And something that really costs more than anything are the health effects caused by tobacco..

Like I said. We need harsher laws when dealing with violent drug offenders.. But we need to completely drop the laws when dealing with simple possession, etc..

Let them understand that there will he a certain area where they can shoot up, in a supervised environment.. If they don't like that, then they can feel free to go to jail..

But it also must be a multi pronged approach, Americans need to change their thinking..
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Old 12-11-2011, 17:21   #261
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We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.
Beware of spurious relationships. We are talking about the legalization issue and general crime, sometimes two separate issues.

The logical fallacy is Most of the criminals apprehended are drug users, therefore all drug users are criminals. That is like saying Most people we catch commiting crimes are poor, therefore most poor people commit crimes.
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Old 12-11-2011, 17:26   #262
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Where are you getting your information on this? What is your experience? Is this a personal statistic you made up or did you get it from somewhere?
"In 2004, 17% of State prisoners and 18% of Federal inmates said they committed their current offense to obtain money for drugs." (Department of Justice, 2007; http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32348)

This number is in sharp contrast to your 90% claim. The legalization issue goes far beyond your beat.
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Old 12-11-2011, 17:26   #263
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I am personally of the opinion that we need a drastically different approach to dealing with drugs. So that is my view.

My question is for the people who are in favor of continuing the war on drugs.
Bear with me for a second. I think the war on drugs is only having a very small effect toward the goal of preventing americans from getting drugs. I would guess for every $1 worth of drugs we prevent, $100 gets through. And it costs us $100 in resources to keep out that $1.
That is a terrible return on our money. And it looks to me like we are losing ground. We are not winning.

So if you support the war on drugs, how do you see this going? Are you comfortable with continuing down the same path and just hoping for the best?
It should be treated like the national security problem it is.
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Old 12-11-2011, 17:33   #264
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83% of Cook County inmates tested positive for drug use upon admission.

What does this have to do with the legalization issue? Saying that all criminals are drug users is not the same as all drug users are criminals.

Your own report says that a disproportionate number of that 83% is marijuana. This includes a lot of teen punks who simply smoke a joint before a burglary. That's a far cry from the small percentage of hard core addicts who need drug money.
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Old 12-11-2011, 17:37   #265
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.

The government does not give out methadone. Methadone clinics are for profit clinics that are approved for the use of opiate withdrawal.

Clinics are both public and private. It is often a mix.
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Old 12-11-2011, 17:43   #266
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The big picture...
You are not discussing the big picture. Your view is the limited experience of your beat. You see most criminals using drugs, so you make the logical fallacy that most drug users are criminals.

You also like the hyperbole of the hardcore heroin addict, a very small portion of the big picture.
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Old 12-11-2011, 17:47   #267
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People are going to drink and drive

It's funny how the phrase Don't Drive Drunk insidiously changed to Don't Drink and Drive. People are now worried about simply drinking a glass of wine for dinner.
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Old 12-11-2011, 23:21   #268
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It should be treated like the national security problem it is.
Well gosh golly.. The US government is doing a piss poor job of doing that..

Last time I checked if something is a "national security" problem, then its probably not a good idea for said government to sell a boatload of AKs to the enemy, which goes to killing hundreds if not thousands of Mexicans and numerous US law enforcement agents..

But hey, we are talking about the US government now.. They get confused sometimes..

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Old 12-12-2011, 04:40   #269
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A heroin addict can hold a job and function fairly normally in society if he doesn't have to spend all day chasing a fix.
What does drug and alcohol use cost businesses annually, in dollars, due to lower productivity, absenteeism, theft, accidents, injuries, death compensation claims?

What exactly is your definition of "hold a job and function fairly normally in society"?

Let's say you own a business. Do you want someone functioning at 100%, or would you rather your employees function "fairly normally"?
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:15   #270
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What does drug and alcohol use cost businesses annually, in dollars, due to lower productivity, absenteeism, theft, accidents, injuries, death compensation claims?

What exactly is your definition of "hold a job and function fairly normally in society"?

Let's say you own a business. Do you want someone functioning at 100%, or would you rather your employees function "fairly normally"?
Russ - I'd say more or less as well as any of the tens of thousands of prescription opiate addicts in society. Rush managed to fool quite a number of folks and perform at a high level. Favre won superbowls.

I'm sure drug and alcohol abuse are costly. So, we should ban them. Both of them.
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:18   #271
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Experience with drugs, drug addicts, courts, law enforcement, drug court, rehab facilities, etc. Anything that would give experience with this subject matter.

Re-read your posts. 2 jabs you have thrown out. People have differing opinions, that is what is great about our country. The big picture in my view is consistent with my views. You have not explained any rationale behind your views other that jabs and blanket statements without facts or experience.
Silly question if you're implying that because I don't work in law enforcement or drug rehab that my opinion is invalid. I would ask you the same: What experience do you have working/living in an American society where drugs are decriminalized?
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Old 12-12-2011, 05:19   #272
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Alcohol prohibition is a mistake in my opinion. But, you can't compare alcohol prohibition to heroin or coke. That is why some drugs are over the counter and some are prescription. I wouldn't compare cannabis to heroin or coke either though.

Each have different effects on individuals and society.
Again, I think we're back to forest/trees for you.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:28   #273
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You also like the hyperbole of the hardcore heroin addict, a very small portion of the big picture.
Really? Go to Baltimore, where about twenty percent of the population is addicted to heroin. That's what legalization looks like, and if you want something, you should at least go see it and make sure you know what you are asking for.
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Old 12-12-2011, 08:44   #274
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Russ - I'd say more or less as well as any of the tens of thousands of prescription opiate addicts in society. Rush managed to fool quite a number of folks and perform at a high level. Favre won superbowls.

I'm sure drug and alcohol abuse are costly. So, we should ban them. Both of them.
That is not an answer to either of my questions.
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What does drug and alcohol use cost businesses annually, in dollars, due to lower productivity, absenteeism, theft, accidents, injuries, death compensation claims?
What exactly is your definition of "hold a job and function fairly normally in society"?
Let's say you own a business. Do you want someone functioning at 100%, or would you rather your employees function "fairly normally"?
First, where did I exclude prescription opiate addicts?

What is the dollar cost to business in the United States?

How do you define "fairly normally" when describing someone on drugs functioning in the workplace? How about at home?

Do you expect your employees to perform at full capacity, or do you accept performance that is "fairly normally"?
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Old 12-12-2011, 11:30   #275
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Really? Go to Baltimore, where about twenty percent of the population is addicted to heroin. That's what legalization looks like, and if you want something, you should at least go see it and make sure you know what you are asking for.
Baltimore is crappy because of the generational entitlement system, lack of care, lack of intelligence, etc..

The average IQ probably hovers around the level of mental retardation, perhaps slightly above. The reason why Baltimore is a crappy place to live is the same reason why Port-au-Prince is a crappy place to live.

Not because of heroin.


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