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Old 12-16-2011, 04:30   #301
NorthCarolinaLiberty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
A thread worth posting in is a thread worth reading first.
I always read others' posts before posting.

Read through and you will see some of my experience already posted.
I thoroughly read your posts. This is what is disturbing, especially for a police officer. Your sources of information are a newspaper article, cable TV, and your beat. Your internal source that corresponds to your statement of, "Drugs are still the number one motivator for almost all crimes" is the most hyperbolic and logically fallacious kind of misinformation. Your mythical ideas on how the process of addiction begins is the silliness fueling the emotion of TV viewers.


As for the Vanguard comment - it has nothing to do with me. It is to show YOU that the problem is so prevalent that there are even documentaries to showcase the problem. The Baltimore example was brought up by another poster to you on the previous page.
Silly entertainment vs. meaningful research. I don't know which is worse: law enforcement that can't tell the difference or law enforcement that promotes such nonsense.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:33   #302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
    • If drug laws are removed, would drug use at work increase or decrease?

    • Would the loss of revenue due to drug use decrease or increase?

    • Would costs related to drug use in the workplace increase or decrease?
  • How many addicts do you know who can

    • hold a job?

    • support himself?

    • contribute to society?

    • be reasonably social and

    • go through his day not harming anyone else.?

    • Do they never have issues at work?

    • Are there never issues at home with family members?

    • How would that change with legalizing drugs?
  • Have you ever been in a position where you were responsible for the product or service made or performed by employees?

  • Have you been in a position to evaluate an employee's performance? It sounds like the answer to those questions is "No."

  • Would you agree that if you miss deadlines, have quality control issues, and it isn't you doing the work, then there must be something wrong with your employees.
Your post was meant for someone else, but it is unusual how you are so deeply concerned with the detailed habits of private employers.
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Old 12-16-2011, 04:45   #303
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post


Yes, it is my source, an advocacy organization for crime victims. I chose this source because the statistics are likely to be the most conservative. Even these conservative stats aren't the hyperbole of your sources. The conclusions though, are sometimes misleading or poor interpretation of the DoJ stats.
I purposely stayed away from sites like NORML and Drug War Facts.



Conclusion

Drug use and criminal behavior certainly seem to be correlated. The evidence indicates that:



Drug users are more likely than nonusers to commit crimes,
Addicts? Yes, but that’s not even a majority of addicts. Users? Depends on your definition of user. Hard core alcoholics are more likely than nonalcoholics to shoplift, but that says nothing about the millions of casual alcohol consumers. Your focus is always sensational, focusing on a minority of addicts and hard core types. None of this supports your blatantly fallacious claim of “Drugs are still the number one motivator for all crimes.”

Arrestees and inmates were often under the influence of a drug(s) at the time they committed their offenses,...
The word “often” is not quantified here. It is also grossly out of context in a conclusion.

Drug trafficking and distribution generate violence.
Yes, obviously. A precise reason for legalization. See prohibition.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:01   #304
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
I would be much more impressed and would take your opinion with more weight if it came from professional or personal experience, background, interviews, career work, current or past environment, and training in this field. Doing quick half-read google searches to try and support an idea you have does not validate your argument to me.
How does a person know anything? You experience. You observe. You research. You live.

It's entirely possible that I might have a wider ranging experience than you. I've hung out with plenty of low life drug users. I've been around better class drug users. I learned things such as how smoking or injecting heroin one time does not even lead to a 2nd time. I learned that the wild exaggeration of those PCP TV movies were more anomalies than everyday reality. I learned that a drug user was a thief or addict, but also a decent boss or a classmate. The person was also and anywhere in between the whole range of human experience. The situations were almost never the situations portrayed in emotional media.

I later complemented my experiences with research. I do quite a bit of primary and secondary source research, either for personal interest, for my current side job, or a couple of past jobs.

I use paid library databases, select and vetted websites, and search engines like Google. The method is not as important as the result. I evaluate sources, especially for authority. The topics widely vary, but I've had good practice distinguishing quality information from less than stellar.

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Old 12-16-2011, 05:13   #305
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Originally Posted by series1811 View Post
You even looked at the DAWN numbers for Baltimore?

Never heard of this, but looked it up. Seems they just cover mortality. Nothing about addiction rates, especially your claim that 1 in 5 people in Baltimore are heroin addicts.
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Old 12-16-2011, 05:17   #306
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What exactly is the opposite of 8 out of ten?
See the DoJ stat that I quoted.

If the numbers you say are "the exact opposite opposite of that 8 out of 10" are national averages, would that not mean that some facilities have higher ratios?

Is it possible that in some jurisdictions the ratio is 8 out of 10?
Yes I suppose that certain sections of Baltimore are worse than Beverly Hills. TV's unrelenting use of the statistical measure of mode is fine for entertainment, but it hardly should be the only measure considered when gathering information, let alone forming public policy.
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Old 12-16-2011, 11:21   #307
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You need to humble yourself a bit. Saying because you have known a few drug users who were addicts and some who were not does not make you an expert. Your research is reading articles also does not make an expert.

I am not the king of drugs, but I have worked in specialized units statewide, I currently teach classes on drug use/recognition as well as retail theft trends involving drug use, have worked as a counselor for drug courts, been in thousand of homes with drug use families, been in hundreds of dope stash and cut houses, interviewed and established relationships with informants of all level of addictions, talked with thousands of people about their motivations for crimes or prostitution or violence, etc etc etc. I've arrested everyone rem your homeless heroin addict to your coke head big money politician and every one in between.

Plain and simple there is a correlation between drug use and addiction and crime. The more articles and proof people show you the madder you get and attack those sources or try to confuse the facts. The easier it is to get drugs in hub areas and open air markets - the higher the crime is. It is not prohibition in englewood, k-town, or even Detroit that causes crime. It's not hard to get drugs, people flag you down and yell "blow" on the corners to sell you dope.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:43   #308
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Let's compare you to Sharky...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
How does a person know anything? You experience. You observe. You research. You live.

It's entirely possible that I might have a wider ranging experience than you.
  • I've hung out with plenty of low life drug users.

  • I've been around better class drug users.

  • I learned things such as how smoking or injecting heroin one time does not even lead to a 2nd time.

  • I learned that the wild exaggeration of those PCP TV movies were more anomalies than everyday reality.

  • I learned that a drug user was a thief or addict, but also a decent boss or a classmate.

  • The person was also and anywhere in between the whole range of human experience.

  • The situations were almost never the situations portrayed in emotional media.
I later complemented my experiences with research.
I do quite a bit of primary and secondary source research, either for personal interest, for my current side job, or a couple of past jobs.
  • I use paid library databases,

  • select and vetted websites, and

  • search engines like Google. The method is not as important as the result.

  • I evaluate sources, especially for authority.

  • The topics widely vary, but

  • I've had good practice distinguishing quality information from less than stellar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
You need to humble yourself a bit. Saying because you have known a few drug users who were addicts and some who were not does not make you an expert. Your research is reading articles also does not make an expert.

I am not the king of drugs, but
  • I have worked in specialized units statewide,

  • I currently teach classes on drug use/recognition

  • as well as retail theft trends involving drug use,

  • have worked as a counselor for drug courts,

  • been in thousand of homes with drug use families,

  • been in hundreds of dope stash and cut houses,

  • interviewed and established relationships with informants of all level of addictions,

  • talked with thousands of people about their motivations for crimes or prostitution or violence, etc etc etc.

  • I've arrested everyone rem your homeless heroin addict to your coke head big money politician and every one in between.

Plain and simple there is a correlation between drug use and addiction and crime. The more articles and proof people show you the madder you get and attack those sources or try to confuse the facts. The easier it is to get drugs in hub areas and open air markets - the higher the crime is. It is not prohibition in englewood, k-town, or even Detroit that causes crime. It's not hard to get drugs, people flag you down and yell "blow" on the corners to sell you dope.
Or, in SE DC where long stem roses sold at the curb are $20 each. Guess the little package of "flower-fresh" stuck down in the paper wrapping is good stuff.

Now, NorthCarolinaLiberty, for clarification, would you mind telling us just how many the "plenty" in "plenty of low life drug users" is?

When you said, "I learned that a drug user was a thief or addict, but also a decent boss or a classmate. The person was also and anywhere in between the whole range of human experience," are you describing just one person you know?

You say, "The topics widely vary, but I've had good practice distinguishing quality information from less than stellar." How much of your research has been on drug users, drug use, addicts? Is it 10%, 25%, 50%? To what topic would you say you devoted the most research time?
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:56   #309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Plain and simple there is a correlation between drug use and addiction and crime
Correlation does not prove causation.

There's a "link" between schizophrenia and drug use. But no proof that drug use causes (or increases the risk of) schizophrenia. It's far more likely that schizophrenics use illegal drugs to self medicate.

To say that drug users are criminals is circular logic. Drug use is illegal, ergo by definition drug users are criminals.

When you force people to turn to the black market to make a purchase it has the effect of promoting additional criminal behavior. Just look at what alcohol prohibition did.

Also, when you force products into the black market you artificially raise the price to a level beyond the means of the average person's income. It's an unwritten "black market tax" that is unavoidable based on 1) rarity and 2) risk. If the price is artificially high, then someone with a dependency problem will do whatever it takes to avoid withdraws from the harder drugs (e.g. meth, coke, heroin).

Make it legal and the price decreases. Use does not increase (proven by countries that have decriminalized drugs). And property crimes decrease (again proven in other countries). Gee, close the BLACK MARKET and things improve, alcohol prohibition sure didn't prove that, oh wait, it did.

The above are just some reasons why corrolation does not prove causation in this case. Drug use alone does NOT cause a person to engage in criminal behavior -- especially marijuana.

And of course there's correlation between drug use and 'addiction' (or at least dependence). That's also true with prescription drugs (lawfully taken). it's true with coffee and alcohol. If you NEVER drink coffee, then you NEVER suffer headaches from withdrawal -- and failed resolutions to "quite coffee forever."

Want to REALLY save lives, and REALLY stop the suffering in famlies and REALLY save the nation money... then take all the money and attention currently wasted on the WoD and focus it on helping OBESE people in Ameica lose weight.

More people die due to food served in schools, fast food restaurants, grocery stores... combined with inactivity due to glocktalk, err I mean TV, internet, being LAZY, etc than die from drug abuse. Fat Americans cost this country FAR more than drug abuse. Fat people dying from obesity related illnesses, or just suffering from the symptoms from them, cause FAR more pain and suffering in families than drug use. It's a question of scale.

And we can combat the obesity epidemic without burning the Constitution. It's a double win. Plus, you can prove someone is obese, you can't prove someone is a drug addict (sorry, the DSM is a croc when it comes to diagnosing drug addiction).

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-16-2011 at 14:59..
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Old 12-16-2011, 13:06   #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
talked with thousands of people about their motivations for crimes or prostitution or violence, etc etc etc.

It is not prohibition in englewood, k-town, or even Detroit that causes crime. It's not hard to get drugs, people flag you down and yell "blow" on the corners to sell you dope.
Dig deeper.

You will find that root causes are things like:

  • Child neglect
  • Child abuse (emotional)
  • Child abuse (sexual)
  • Child abuse (physical)
  • Domestic violence
  • Untreated learning disabilities
  • Untreated mental health conditions
  • Poverty. Extreme poverty.
  • Cycle of criminal activity passed on over generations
  • Lack of educational options or inadequate education
  • A severe downward spiral after their first conviction (for anything) since they are now second class citizens
  • Lack of employment possibilities
  • Poor parental modeling
  • Alcohol abuse by parents and all it's glorious consequences on children
  • Etc.

To simply say "it's a drug problem" is both narrow sighted, and short sighted -- and patently false.

Being LEO you have a warped perspective. Talk to some social workerd, no, strike that. Talk to some honest to God LMFTs (therapists).

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-16-2011 at 14:22..
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Old 12-16-2011, 13:07   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthCarolinaLiberty View Post
You are not discussing the big picture. Your view is the limited experience of your beat. You see most criminals using drugs, so you make the logical fallacy that most drug users are criminals.

You also like the hyperbole of the hardcore heroin addict, a very small portion of the big picture.
What portion of the big picture are hardcore heroin addicts?
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Old 12-16-2011, 13:08   #312
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
It is not prohibition in englewood, k-town, or even Detroit that causes crime. It's not hard to get drugs, people flag you down and yell "blow" on the corners to sell you dope.
Well, at least you admit your effort is wasted.

Can't even stop an open drug bizarre, where people run up and shout "BUY SOME BLOW".

I want a refund on all my taxes that have been 100% wasted on the WoD.
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Old 12-16-2011, 13:51   #313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Gangs, street crimes, drugs, prostitution, violence - all go hand in hand. Come do a week on my beat.
Sharky, has anyone taken you up on your offer to do a week of ride-alongs?
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Old 12-16-2011, 14:20   #314
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Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Sharky, has anyone taken you up on your offer to do a week of ride-alongs?
Do a 'ride along' back in the 1920s and guess what officers would be saying:

Alcohol goes hand in hand with:
  • violence
  • prostitution
  • Street crime
  • gangs
Well, it doesn't. Prohibition goes hand in hand with those items.

When you make a health issue into a law enforcement issue, outcomes and perspectives get skewed.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-16-2011 at 14:30..
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Old 12-16-2011, 14:28   #315
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http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...45213481900508

Many studies have shown a link between child sexual abuse, and turning toward prostitution later in life.

Once a woman turns to prostitution you usually have pimps involved. Unless you are in a place with legalized prostitution -- in a first world country like the USA or Amsterdam.

Once a pimp is involved, then drug dependence will usually be intentionally introduced to help the pimp exert control over his 'commodity.' We aren't talking soft drugs like alcohol or marijuana, we're talking hard drugs like meth and heroin.

So prostitution, in and of itself, is not the cause of drug addiction.

There might be a lot of drug use by prostitutes (e.g. illegal prostitutes, not those who do it legally), but to say that drugs cause prostitution is patently false. It would be far more accurate to blame prostitution on the sexual abuse of children.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-16-2011 at 14:37..
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Old 12-16-2011, 14:58   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
Do a 'ride along' back in the 1920s and guess what officers would be saying:

Alcohol goes hand in hand with:
  • violence
  • prostitution
  • Street crime
  • gangs
Well, it doesn't. Prohibition goes hand in hand with those items.

When you make a health issue into a law enforcement issue, outcomes and perspectives get skewed.
Have you been on many, any ride-alongs?
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Old 12-16-2011, 15:26   #317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
Have you been on many, any ride-alongs?
Several.
  • And I've attended civilian 'academy' community relationship programs.
  • And I have many LEO friends.
  • And I have many friends who are social workers and LMFTs.
  • And I have done extensive work in the 'addiction' recovery field.
  • And I occasionally eat Oatmeal (meaning the requirement of going on a ride along to understand the WoD is false thinking, might as well require someone eat oatmeal before they can 'really' understand the WoD).
But really, someone does not need any of the above to formulate accurate ideas about health issues, prohibition, drug dependence and the WoD.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-16-2011 at 16:01..
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Old 12-16-2011, 16:08   #318
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http://www.leap.cc/

Here is a group of LEO who are against prohibition
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Old 12-16-2011, 16:10   #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
Dig deeper.

You will find that root causes are things like:

  • Child neglect
  • Child abuse (emotional)
  • Child abuse (sexual)
  • Child abuse (physical)
  • Domestic violence
  • Untreated learning disabilities
  • Untreated mental health conditions
  • Poverty. Extreme poverty.
  • Cycle of criminal activity passed on over generations
  • Lack of educational options or inadequate education
  • A severe downward spiral after their first conviction (for anything) since they are now second class citizens
  • Lack of employment possibilities
  • Poor parental modeling
  • Alcohol abuse by parents and all it's glorious consequences on children
  • Etc.

To simply say "it's a drug problem" is both narrow sighted, and short sighted -- and patently false.

Being LEO you have a warped perspective. Talk to some social workerd, no, strike that. Talk to some honest to God LMFTs (therapists).
I've spent a lot of time volunteering as a counselor for drug court. I have a graduation I am going to tomorrow for our current class.

There are a wide range of reasons some people turn to drugs or get started on drugs. The longer you use drugs though to suppress those problems the worse shape you will be in. At some point you have to take back control of your life and work positively.

----------------------------

For the bold part above - You never get a conviction after your first drug charge. Simple cannabis charges under an ounce (30 grams under law) are fine only and usually get charged as ordinance so they are not even criminal matters.

Felony possession charges such as heroin, cocaine, crack cocaine, pills, etc - you get the choice of drug court. If you complete it, it is expunged. If you refuse drug court, you can still be found guilty, but not convicted. Most people are found guilty, but get supervision which allows them to keep it off their record as long as they are not arrested again in a certain period of time. It takes an act of God to get a conviction for drug charges in most locations. If you are actually convicted for a possession charge - you worked hard to get that conviction.
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Old 12-16-2011, 16:14   #320
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
Well, at least you admit your effort is wasted.

Can't even stop an open drug bizarre, where people run up and shout "BUY SOME BLOW".

I want a refund on all my taxes that have been 100% wasted on the WoD.
I don't think you would like the society that you would live in to put an absolute 100% end to all drugs. Law enforcement and the criminal justice system is always a balancing act between personal liberties and the rights, freedoms, and better living for the rest of society.

We can't just come in busting in every door without warrants searching for drugs without reason or suspicion. It's a balancing act. Law enforcement will never be able to end ALL crime, but we do our best to end it and make a better society for you, your family, and the rest of the community.

Just imagine how things would be if we didn't spend any resources on drug enforcement or prevention.
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