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Old 12-04-2011, 11:00   #41
Lethaltxn
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Originally Posted by bigleaf View Post
No other country in the world... not Red China, not Iran, not Myanmar... has as high a percentage of its own citizens in prison as the USA.
In fairness, that's usually because they get a bullet or are beheaded. Just sayin.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:02   #42
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
So you think we should just continue on the same path? Or should we do something different, still maintaining the war on drugs? What do you think we should do?
Continue fighting and think of ways to achieve better gains for our efforts. I would say stiffer sentences would be a good start.

Last edited by M&P Shooter; 12-04-2011 at 11:02..
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:02   #43
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Fighting an unwinnable war against the behaviors of a significant portion of a nation's own citizens is foolish. People are going to do what they do whether you give up, or not.
Then why not murders and rapist go free also?
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:06   #44
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Google..."guns and weed: the road to freedom" and watch the 16 part movie on youtube. The War on Drugs is a cash cow for LEO and to halt the war...would put a bunch of folks out of jobs. Although the Gov. could tax and regulate it like Alcohol and still make money. Who knows?
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:09   #45
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I think the notion some Americans have that legalizing drugs would destroy our society is just way off. People who want drugs will get their hands on drugs. I would be willing to be that legalizing drugs would reduce the number of people who use it.

I think people are just afraid of change. I've never done any type of illegal drug and I dont even take pain killers. You could approach the drug problem the same way you can approach smoking. Just advertise against it.

The anti smoking advertising in the U.S. was very successful. I cam from Brazil and I've traveled other countries. The amount of people that smoke in the U.S. is very small compared to other countries. If people want to make bad choices let them, you cant change people they have to change on their own. Just make sure people are informed about the effects of drugs.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:13   #46
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Then why not murders and rapist go free also?
I would say because people who murder and rape are infringing on other peoples rights and well being. People who do drugs in my opinion are not, they are just harming themselves.

Sure you can make an argument that drugs are bad for our society and do harm other people but whether it is legal or illegal doesn't change that fact.

I think drugs are closer related to alcohol than they are to rapes and murder. You can live with alcohol being legal right?

Last edited by Christian944; 12-04-2011 at 11:14..
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:24   #47
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Originally Posted by Danny Reid View Post
Easy. Say we legalize it all tomorrow. In the libertarian world, that would be the end of it. That isn't reality, though. Hand in hand with legalization would come regulation. Color me dubious, but when I think of addicts the thought that they are the sort to operate within specific constraints seems a bit goofy.

Who knows? Maybe some crackheads and Meth users may be willing to go through proper channels in order to get their fix once it's legalized, but I kinda doubt it.
Oh. I see. Are regulations government involvement?

Lemme ask you though: how many illegal speakeasy joints are you aware of? Is bootlegging enough of a problem today to even register on anyone's priority list?

Speaking of prohibition, can you explain to me why the federal government needed a constitutional amendment to criminalize booze but doesn't need one to criminalize other drugs or marijuana ?
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:28   #48
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Then why not murders and rapist go free also?
They are not a significant part of the population and all the rest of the population wants them in jail. Using illegal drugs is closer to using caffeine and alcohol, than it is to murder and rape.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:29   #49
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Then why not murders and rapist go free also?
If you are unable to distinguish between murder, rape and smoking a joint or selling a dime bag, there isn't much for me to tell you.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:31   #50
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Continue fighting and think of ways to achieve better gains for our efforts. I would say stiffer sentences would be a good start.
It would drive up the price with the risk. Maybe it would have the intended effect. Maybe something worse.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:31   #51
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Originally Posted by JackMac View Post
Google..."guns and weed: the road to freedom" and watch the 16 part movie on youtube. The War on Drugs is a cash cow for LEO and to halt the war...would put a bunch of folks out of jobs. Although the Gov. could tax and regulate it like Alcohol and still make money. Who knows?
Here is another interesting watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CyuBuT_7I4
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:34   #52
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
Good point. I'm going to see if I can steer it toward my original question.

I will attempt to keep as close as I can to your original question. I agree that we ought to try a wide variety of things to see what may actually work. If it does work keep going with it until a better idea comes along then lets experiment with that idea to see how well it works.


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... Another friend cashed his Christmas Club check a couple years ago, got stopped for speeding on the way to the mall and had his $2500 confiscated by the police.
...One old guy cashed in a CD and took the money to a local car dealership to pay cash for a new car. The cops were called and they took his money too. According to the local newspaper, it cost him almost $5000 in lawyer fees to get his $30,000 back.

....
There is a little something missing from the versions of both these incidents. When money that is acquired legally is legally put into a thrift and then legally removed from a thrift, the police don't take it. If there is a relationship that can be drawn from the money to criminal activity, that is different.


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The medical industry has a vested interest in keeping marijuana illegal.
I am not doubting that some drug companies may wish to keep marijuana illegal. That's why I picked some of the best hospitals - the ones that are on the cutting edge of what is new and untried; the hopsitals and physicians that other physicians will send themselves or family members to for critical issues, and let them decide if or when to prescribe marijuana.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:35   #53
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The "asset forfeiture" statutes of the war on drugs have become a tremendous cash cow for the police agencies. How many "interdiction" cars do you see sittting between the lanes on the intersate? Those guys are trying to stop cars headed back with money, no "profit" in siezing drugs that you just ahve to destroy!

If drugs were free or low cost it would eliminate the profit potential and consequently the illegal trafficking pretty darn quick. Those criminals aren't stupid, if they can't make any money at something they ain't gonna do it.

This massive "war" has worked as well as most government programs, and it's time to try another approach.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:37   #54
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What we need to crack down on, is the Dr.s that write scripts for everyone with a fart crosswise.
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:50   #55
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Yes. Regulations are government involvement. And I assure you, there would be regulations involved.

Now, if it were a simple matter of straight out decriminalization...with no regulation of any sort involved, it would be interesting to see what happens.

Government however never allows anything to be that simple. Kind of why we will never have a flat tax. Simple, yes. But too many people would be put out of work ( lawyers, accountants).
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Old 12-04-2011, 11:51   #56
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
I am personally of the opinion that we need a drastically different approach to dealing with drugs. So that is my view.

My question is for the people who are in favor of continuing the war on drugs.
Bear with me for a second. I think the war on drugs is only having a very small effect toward the goal of preventing americans from getting drugs.
Allow me to disagree, looking at what I know about it and the example of alcohol prohibition, I think it is actually HELPING Americans get drugs that wouldn't be available, but for the war on drugs. As with alcohol during prohibition, it also makes using drugs an act of rebellion and "cool." I seem to recall that Chicago had hundreds of times more bars operating during prohibition than before.

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I would guess for every $1 worth of drugs we prevent, $100 gets through. And it costs us $100 in resources to keep out that $1.
Again, that's where we differ - I say for every $100 we spend, we drive up the price of the drug just a little, make it more profitable, especially to those outside the US, and we actually increase the supply and willingness of people to risk smuggling it in.

Example ('scuse me while I make this up): Corn is more useful than marijuana, but it is plentiful, so you don't see people in Mexico and California smuggling corn into the U.S. Marijuana, on the other hand, is easy to grow (grows wild in places around here), but because of the demand and the artificial shortage created by the war on drugs, it is much more valuable in smaller quantities. In turn, that makes it easier for people to grow a profitable quantity that they can carry across town in the trunk of a car, instead of a tractor-trailer.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:03   #57
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Then why not murders and rapist go free also?
Why not put gun owners in prison?

Murder and rape are conduct that harm others - owning the gun used in the murder and rape is not and it can be used legally or illegally.

Committing murder and rape while under the influence of drugs (or, directly because of the war on drugs, to get drugs) are specific crimes already. Drugs can be used with or without committing other crimes, so why not take the pro-freedom approach and penalize the harmful conduct, like we do with guns. Paternalistic laws against possession and use have no place in a country that claims to be free. That doesn't eman we wouldn't still punish DUI/murder/rape/or even disorderly conduct by drug users.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:10   #58
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Every person that says "hey whats the worst that can happen if u just make it legal?"
or "it that persons problem if there on drugs" Has not grown up with a drug addicted parent, or realize the damage a drug addicted parent does to there child. These notions are delusions of people who just want to hang back and smoke some pot, not taking into effect it has on people around the country.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:13   #59
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Originally Posted by GoonGlock21 View Post
Every person that says "hey whats the worst that can happen if u just make it legal?"
or "it that persons problem if there on drugs" Has not grown up with a drug addicted parent, or realize the damage a drug addicted parent does to there child. These notions are delusions of people who just want to hang back and smoke some pot, not taking into effect it has on people around the country.
Last I checked, drugs were illegal and plenty of parents were still addicts, not to mention the fact that making drugs legal doesn't abrogate other legal obligations parents have with regards to caring for their children.

Singapore decriminalized all drugs for personal use and the number of users who they have going through treatment has increased. If harm minimization is your goal, prohibition is clearly not the answer.

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Old 12-04-2011, 12:16   #60
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I wonder what the number of users looks like........
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