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Old 12-04-2011, 12:19   #61
Lampshade
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Originally Posted by GoonGlock21 View Post
I wonder what the number of users looks like........
Proportionally, far less than what we have here.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:19   #62
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Originally Posted by GoonGlock21 View Post
Every person that says "hey whats the worst that can happen if u just make it legal?"
or "it that persons problem if there on drugs" Has not grown up with a drug addicted parent, or realize the damage a drug addicted parent does to there child. These notions are delusions of people who just want to hang back and smoke some pot, not taking into effect it has on people around the country.
I have a stepchild sitting in jail right now for what he did because of his alcoholism. The sale and ease of getting alcohol pisses me off. Illegalizing it, or more regulation, whould not have changed his choices, or the present end result.

His time in jail is the longest he has stayed sober in years. When he gets out, I have no Idea if he will be able to win against his disease. He wants to. Will he? No Idea.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:26   #63
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Originally Posted by GoonGlock21 View Post
Every person that says "hey whats the worst that can happen if u just make it legal?"
or "it that persons problem if there on drugs" Has not grown up with a drug addicted parent, or realize the damage a drug addicted parent does to there child. These notions are delusions of people who just want to hang back and smoke some pot, not taking into effect it has on people around the country.
I haven't smoked pot since the Carter administration, and was heavily invested in the 12-step movement for nearly thirty years. Your argument is similar to the ones posited by anti-gunners who consistently predict blood in the streets whenever pro-2A legislation is proposed.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:27   #64
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I always get a good laugh when I read the local paper's story of a marijuana eradication operation.

99% of the time, it's a group of 10-12 overweight cops, all dressed in tactical gear with ATV's and a helicopter, posing with a small growing operation.

I would guess they spend thousands of dollars to wipe out a few plants.

This is a great example of waste.

As a LEO I can confirm that marijuana erad is a complete and utter waste of time, money and resources. At least in my neck of the woods. Really, I wouldn't lose any sleep if marijuana was legalized.


If the government was really interested in winning "the war on drugs", they'd seal the southern border and execute trafficers...
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:27   #65
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Originally Posted by NMG26 View Post
I have a stepchild sitting in jail right now for what he did because of his alcoholism. The sale and ease of getting alcohol pisses me off. Illegalizing it, or more regulation, whould not have changed his choices, or the present end result.

His time in jail is the longest he has stayed sober in years. When he gets out, I have no Idea if he will be able to win against his disease. He wants to. Will he? No Idea.
Prohibitive legislation is no substitiute for responsible behavior.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:38   #66
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
I am personally of the opinion that we need a drastically different approach to dealing with drugs. So that is my view.

My question is for the people who are in favor of continuing the war on drugs.
Bear with me for a second. I think the war on drugs is only having a very small effect toward the goal of preventing americans from getting drugs. I would guess for every $1 worth of drugs we prevent, $100 gets through. And it costs us $100 in resources to keep out that $1.
That is a terrible return on our money. And it looks to me like we are losing ground. We are not winning.

So if you support the war on drugs, how do you see this going? Are you comfortable with continuing down the same path and just hoping for the best?
Incarceration doesn't work, and we're making all the wrong guys rich.

Alcohol prohibition didn't work, and neither does this drug prohibition.
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Old 12-04-2011, 13:12   #67
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I love the phrase victimless crime.

Based on my experience I would venture to say that 80-90 percent of crime is committed by people who are currently under the influence or attempting to obtain drugs. Drug users and those attempting to obtain drugs are the ones who are burglarizing your homes, your vehicles, Robbing your son your daughter who is working a part time job at a store. Stealing anything metal that isnt bolted down. Causing the Fatality accident that kills your son, daughter friend. Carries out the assaults, murders, rapes, I could go on and on. Most dont understand the concept until something happens to them and even then they only get a small glimpse at the darkside of things. I have had a front row seat to those effected by this victimless crime for the last 11 years.

If you allow the unregulated and uncontrolled use of any mind altering substance abuse is going to happen. You can argue that legalizing it and taxing it and regulating it like prescription medication would be more beneficial. Has that been effective with Prescription Narcotics? Prescription Diversion is at an all time high and is so widespread and rampant that it is hard to quantify. It is a taboo subject and doesnt get a lot of media attention because like alcohol abuse many take part in it and it doesnt have the same stigma that someone who abuses meth or heroin imparts.

In texas around 8 years ago the shift became apparent for drug offenders. TDCJ the Texas prison system was over capacity. So they shifted from incarceration to rehabilitation for not only drug abusers but drug dealers. Most first second and third time Drug Offenders that would normally be sent to prison (Serious level charges) not small user quantities are sent to a program called SAFP. This is a 6 month to 1 year long intensive drug rehabilitation program. What have the results been? Pretty poor, 70 to 80 percent recidivisim rate for offenders in my area I dont have access to statistics state wide.

So is rehabilitiation the answer? Maybe it would work elsewhere but currently it is not working here. When you break down the mechanics of addiction you see that unless someone is forced to change they wont and unless they are removed from the enviroment that enabled them in the first place the are unlikely to succeed at remaining clean.

So all that being said what do we do?

There are many theories to the best way of policing. Typically police are reactive in nature. They "Respond" to crimes instead of preventing them. Not only because of Manpower constraints but because they dont have crystal balls to tell them where the next murder is going to occur.

We can attribute a large amount of All crime to drug abuse and distribution so we can take the proactive stance of treating the symptoms of Burglary, Theft, Assault, Murder, Rape. And in doing so prevent some of these from happening.

Another talking point that people love to spout is the "Theft" by the government in regards to asset forfeiture. Asset Forfeiture is probably one of the most effective tools at preventing the Distribution of Illegal Narcotics. The most simple way of looking at it is If you take their money they cant buy the dope to put it on the street. Illegal drugs are relatively cheap at the point of distribution. The markup comes down the road. It is also hard to control the point of origin since it usually originates for some drugs in other countries. So what do you do? You target them where it counts. The vehicles, houses, jewelery, boats, and cash that they funnel all their illicit proceeds into. In one fell swoop you can knock out a dope dealers rainy day fund and reset them to Square 1. If you can prove that the property was obtained by legitimate means you will usually get it back. So If you call taking something that was obtained by illegitimate means theft than I would call into question your value system.
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Old 12-04-2011, 13:36   #68
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While I might agree that the war on drugs is a failure, does anyone really believe that drug traffickers or their clients are going to go get a job and buy their drug of choice from the new boss?
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Old 12-04-2011, 13:55   #69
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Drugs should be decriminalized. The federal government has no Constitutional authority to criminalize them.

Users should bear the full weight and responsibilities of their choices with no social aid from public monies for rehabilitation.

It's real difficult to enjoy liberty within the confines of a socialist system.
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:03   #70
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While I might agree that the war on drugs is a failure, does anyone really believe that drug traffickers or their clients are going to go get a job and buy their drug of choice from the new boss?
If drugs were made legal the price would go through the floor. Criminals would have no interest in competing with corporations.
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:04   #71
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I like the idea that K. Kiser said his Dad suggested. When drugs are confiscated, poison said drugs, then put them back on the street. Yeah, it is a tough idea, but I think it would work.
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:04   #72
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
If drugs were made legal the price would go through the floor. Criminals would have no interest in competing with corporations.
Well, bootlegging led to NASCAR. Perhaps the outta work narcotics peddlers can come up with some spectator sport?
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:05   #73
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I like the idea that K. Kiser said his Dad suggested. When drugs are confiscated, poison said drugs, then put them back on the street. Yeah, it is a tough idea, but I think it would work.
Government-sponsored murder of its citizens?
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:09   #74
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I like the idea that K. Kiser said his Dad suggested. When drugs are confiscated, poison said drugs, then put them back on the street. Yeah, it is a tough idea, but I think it would work.
Intentionally murdering a bunch of innocent people is worth it to prevent them from using recreational drugs? Shall we poison alcohol as well?
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:11   #75
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If the government controlled drugs and anyone could buy them at say a pharmacy it would kill the cartels. I wouldn't mind using coke or x but I'm not going to break laws or buy from criminals to do it. :/
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:18   #76
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Originally Posted by Fallout View Post
I love the phrase victimless crime.

Based on my experience I would venture to say that 80-90 percent of crime is committed by people who are currently under the influence or attempting to obtain drugs. Drug users and those attempting to obtain drugs are the ones who are burglarizing your homes, your vehicles, Robbing your son your daughter who is working a part time job at a store. Stealing anything metal that isnt bolted down. Causing the Fatality accident that kills your son, daughter friend. Carries out the assaults, murders, rapes, I could go on and on.
At least half of that is all about people getting money for artificially expensive drugs.
No argument though that people under the influence of stuff will do things they wouldn't normally allow themselves to do. And that most definitely includes alcohol.





Quote:
If you take their money they cant buy the dope to put it on the street.
I would say that isn't working.
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:21   #77
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Originally Posted by frank4570 View Post
Intentionally murdering a bunch of innocent people is worth it to prevent them from using recreational drugs? Shall we poison alcohol as well?
Hmmm. Alcohol is not illegal. Drugs are illegal. Not sure what recreational use constitutes. I do see your point though. Like I said, tough decision.
Heck, I really do not know what the answer is. I do know that I plan on having a couple adult beverages tonight. I'll ponder this and get back to you later.
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:30   #78
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Unless someone can show that the F16 driver does as well after testing positive.
You do know that the USAF administers medical quality meth to it's pilots? It was a huge story a few years ago when a flight of -15s took out a Canadian platoon. HH
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:31   #79
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Heck, I really do not know what the answer is. I do know that I plan on having a couple adult beverages tonight. I'll ponder this and get back to you later.
Then you would be the perfect example of the average, normal person who doesn't have a freak out just because you have a drug in your system.
Like most people, you have a few beers and enjoy your evening. That's all.
Mostly it wouldn't matter much what you have in your system, you would still be the same person.
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For too long people have said "screw NY, IL, etc" or "that'll never happen here." Yes, it will eventually. If we dont start standing up together now, it will never stop.-ilgunguygt

Last edited by frank4570; 12-04-2011 at 15:08..
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Old 12-04-2011, 14:50   #80
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If drugs were decriminalized - not only would the prices drop drastically, but the quality and safety of the product would improve drastically. You wouldn't have to worry what your coke or x is being cut with or if someone laced your weed.

The only laws that should be in place are laws that protect us from the actions of others. I don't need the government to make laws in an effort to protect me from myself....

You could argue that most of our crime is commited by drug users in an effort to secure more drugs. I would then argue that those crimes are commited due the the fact that drugs are illegal, and therefore are expensive and sometimes dangerous to procure.
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