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Old 12-04-2011, 18:35   #101
Restless28
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Originally Posted by billyblooshoes View Post
im surprised no one has anything to say about this genius post. chock full of pure ignorance.

explain responsible white-collar drug addicts then? good job, takes care of family, essentially isnt directly hurting anyone but himself, but happens to be addicted to say pain killers or cocaine. or how about a guy who makes six figures as is CEO of a finance company, that is an alcoholic? takes care of his kids, is a good dad, good to his wife, comes to work every day on time, but when he drinks, he drinks to get drunk and ends up getting hammered, once his kids and wife are secure and in bed. again, essentially not directly hurting anyone but himself.

should we just "f-em, kill 'em all too" with these guys? you sound like you woulda been better off with the SS in the 40's.

but then you go on to state that you dont think weed is a big deal, which although it may not be in your opinion, is still an illegal narcotic.

you're post is pure fail.
No. He and his father's logic borders on insanity, endorsing mass murder.

Crazee.
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Old 12-04-2011, 18:39   #102
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One must factor in the culture. The Dutch are a monoculture. The U.S. is a melting pot, so to speak. Basically, the Dutch are all on the same page. There is social pressure to make something of yourself and not be a slacker.
That is a HUGE difference between them and us. Cultural differences are very important to the big picture.
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Old 12-04-2011, 18:53   #103
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When you fight a war you FIGHT A WAR!!

If we were serious about this we we'd have tanks and troops in Mexico and Columbia. We don't. We'd be burning down houses, bombing the estancias of the dealers, and taking prisoners.

This isn't a war, we actually even supply the enemy with guns (Fast and Furious). This is a joke. It keeps a lot of money flowing and law enforcement people employed.

We need to just legalize it and deal with it. You could shut down every one of these drug cartels overnight, end the violence, and save countless lives.

It's been forty years and the problems gotten WORSE. Eventually you have to stop.

All the Best,
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:10   #104
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Go to your car dealership of choice with $20,000 or more in cash and see what happens. Get stopped by the police and have them find $1000 or more on you if you are searched, and again, see what happens. See how much it costs you to get it back. The cops can(I am not saying they always will) take it and make you prove it is legally yours.

So if you're stopped by the police and only have $975 they won't take it? I don't suppose you have any statute, policy or any actual reference on this do you?
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:12   #105
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Out of curiousity what drastically different approach do you suggest?
Shutting the whole damn 'war on drugs' down would be a start.

Last edited by tantrix; 12-04-2011 at 19:13..
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:17   #106
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I love when I am at a sporting event or watching one on TV and there are at least 2-3 commercials advertising alcohol every commercial break..

Hell, there are going to be people at that stadium/arena that aren't going to make it home from the game alive directly because of alcohol..

Baseball players can use tobacco during the games..

Yea, this makes sense... Let's ensure that tens of thousands of people die, and hundreds of thousands more are deemed criminals and thrown into an overcrowded failure of a prison system..

Yep, the US government has got this stuff figured out..
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:23   #107
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Not to mention that we should air drop LSD onto Afghanastan and Pakistan, along with some various jam band CD's, they would go from Allah Akbar, to far out bro in a matter of hours!

Bam, conflict over..
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:24   #108
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I don't belive in treatment at all, to me that makes it look like a drug addict has a illness which they do not... A drug addict has a deficit of responsibility, accountability, concern toward others, healthy concern for themselves, and just all-around complete lack of judgement and a surplus of selfishness...

I like the appraoch my Dad has always mentioned... When drugs are confiscated, just poison the crap and put it back out on the streets... It will only kill who it needs to, and drugs will quickly start to carry a pretty lethal reputation and maybe it'll act as a deterrent... If it's not a deterrent, who gives a $h** cause it will just kill the ones that can't head a warning...

There comes a point with a serious problems that ya got to lose compassion, and just fix the ********** problem... I say F'em -- killem all...
It's time responsible and contributing citizens get all that they deserve from the society in which we've conributed to...

BTW - I've never smoked a joint in my life, but I don't think weed is a real big deal that needs to soak up much of our tax $$...
Your dad is a sociopath. You're once removed from one.
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:33   #109
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Go to your car dealership of choice with $20,000 or more in cash and see what happens. Get stopped by the police and have them find $1000 or more on you if you are searched, and again, see what happens. See how much it costs you to get it back. The cops can(I am not saying they always will) take it and make you prove it is legally yours.

You are giving out incorrect information that could get people into trouble.

The mandated cash 'reporting' amount at car dealerships is $10,000 last time I checked. There's a qualifier for lesser amounts: "suspicious activity."

The same applies to banks with another exception: most banks make special note of cash transactions above somewhere between $2,000 and $3,500. But 10k and above is mandatory, in fact, they usually consider anything close to 10k mandatory.

It gets worse, take out 10k via two or more deposits spaced several day apart, and if the bank is doing it's job you will get reported.

It gets worse than that. Try to deal with USPS money orders (which the post office treats as cash) and buy or cash too many: bingo you're reported.

It gets worse than that. Carry any "suspicious" amount of cash and bingo, it can be confiscated -- without any due process, or recourse to reclaim it.

It gets worse: try to leave the country with 10k of cash in your pocket and bam, you're in trouble.

1984.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-04-2011 at 19:35..
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:34   #110
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Originally Posted by billyblooshoes View Post
im surprised no one has anything to say about this genius post. chock full of pure ignorance.

explain responsible white-collar drug addicts then? good job, takes care of family, essentially isnt directly hurting anyone but himself, but happens to be addicted to say pain killers or cocaine. or how about a guy who makes six figures as is CEO of a finance company, that is an alcoholic? takes care of his kids, is a good dad, good to his wife, comes to work every day on time, but when he drinks, he drinks to get drunk and ends up getting hammered, once his kids and wife are secure and in bed. again, essentially not directly hurting anyone but himself.

should we just "f-em, kill 'em all too" with these guys? you sound like you woulda been better off with the SS in the 40's.

but then you go on to state that you dont think weed is a big deal, which although it may not be in your opinion, is still an illegal narcotic.

you're post is pure fail.
He and his dads ideas are moronic. He's describing state-sponsored murder of citizens. How do you respond to that kind of evil?

Why go thru the song and dance of poison and just let the cops execute anyone caught with drugs?
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:37   #111
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
You are giving out incorrect information that could get people into trouble.

The mandated cash 'reporting' amount at car dealerships is $10,000 last time I checked. There's a qualifier for lesser amounts: "suspicious activity."

The same applies to banks with another exception: most banks make special note of cash transactions above somewhere between $2,000 and $3,500. But 10k and above is mandatory, in fact, they usually consider anything close to 10k mandatory.

It gets worse, take out 10k via two or more deposits spaced several day apart, and if the bank is doing it's job you will get reported.

It gets worse than that. Try to deal with USPS money orders (which the post office treats as cash) and buy or cash too many: bingo you're reported.

It gets worse than that. Carry any "suspicious" amount of cash and bingo, it can be confiscated -- without any due process, or recourse to reclaim it.

It gets worse: try to leave the country with 10k of cash in your pocket and bam, you're in trouble.

1984.
I know and it is a travesty beyond words that the citizenry tolerates this.
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Old 12-04-2011, 19:59   #112
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I know and it is a travesty beyond words that the citizenry tolerates this.
Oh, it gets better. AFAIK by law & policy they are not allowed to tell you this information. Clear and transparent.
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Old 12-04-2011, 20:01   #113
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I know and it is a travesty beyond words that the citizenry tolerates this.
Agreed.

All someone needs to do, is to think, to see how much of our liberty and freedom has been stolen.

As someone else pointed out, it is depressing to see so many people on a gun-oriented forum espouse no value in property rights or disparage anyone who supports a political candidate who stands firm for liberty and personal freedom.
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Old 12-04-2011, 20:07   #114
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...It gets worse than that. Carry any "suspicious" amount of cash and bingo, it can be confiscated -- without any due process, or recourse to reclaim it.

...

1984.

There may be a substantial difference between reporting transactions to the IRS and having cash consfiscated. I will ask again - do you have any statute or policy or reference to seizure of cash from someone?
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Old 12-04-2011, 20:17   #115
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There may be a substantial difference between reporting transactions to the IRS and having cash consfiscated. I will ask again - do you have any statute or policy or reference to seizure of cash from someone?
Seriously? Do you live in a cave?

Get pulled over with any "suspicious" amount of cash, and the LEO can seize it and use it. You do not necessarily have any recourse to get it back -- no due process.

There have been countless cases. Google it yourself, or start by searching riddit, boingboing or digg to save some time.

War on Drugs is about power, control, and money -- it's not actually about drugs per say (imho).
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Old 12-04-2011, 20:18   #116
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IMO we are failing drastically and no offense to any hard working LEOs out there but it seems to me that our government is supporting a fake industry in a sense. I think there are two reasons why we haven't stopped. For one thousands of people would be unemployed. Two; any president, mayor, or governor who downsizes the 'war on drugs' will be torn apart by the media the second their is a incident. An incident that would most likely occur anyone but now all the sudden it has the medias attention.

With all that aside. Here are some facts:

Money spent on the war on drugs this year:(as of this post)
Federal: $14 billion
State: $23.8 billion
Total:$37.8 billion
On a rate of about $500/sec

People Arrested for Drug Law Offenses this Year: 1,547,016
Someone is arrested for violating a drug law every 19 seconds.


People Incarcerated for Drug Law Offenses this Year: 10,059

...Soo $37.8 billion dollars for 10k incarcerations. So about $3.7 million per incarceration and that doesn't even include the cost of having that person in prison for whatever sentence they got. IMO that is a incredible waste of money.


http://www.drugsense.org/cms/wodclock
its scary watching the clock tick away and watching our nation debt tick away as well.
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Old 12-04-2011, 20:22   #117
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Not to mention that we should air drop LSD onto Afghanastan and Pakistan, along with some various jam band CD's, they would go from Allah Akbar, to far out bro in a matter of hours!

Bam, conflict over..

^^priceless
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Old 12-04-2011, 20:23   #118
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When you fight a war you FIGHT A WAR!!

If we were serious about this we we'd have tanks and troops in Mexico and Columbia. We don't. We'd be burning down houses, bombing the estancias of the dealers, and taking prisoners.

This isn't a war, we actually even supply the enemy with guns (Fast and Furious). This is a joke. It keeps a lot of money flowing and law enforcement people employed.

We need to just legalize it and deal with it. You could shut down every one of these drug cartels overnight, end the violence, and save countless lives.

It's been forty years and the problems gotten WORSE. Eventually you have to stop.

All the Best,
D. White
Agreed
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Old 12-04-2011, 21:14   #119
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Agreed.

All someone needs to do, is to think, to see how much of our liberty and freedom has been stolen.

As someone else pointed out, it is depressing to see so many people on a gun-oriented forum espouse no value in property rights or disparage anyone who supports a political candidate who stands firm for liberty and personal freedom.
Heck, many here don't even understand the Second Amendment and support "sensible" gun laws.
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Old 12-04-2011, 21:17   #120
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Actually, that's where you and some others are wrong. The money that comes in to the government mostly doesn't go to the individual officers and definitely doesn't go to the individual politicians, who actually have all of the control over it (you'd be surprised how little they care what the police think about things, unless it is useful for publicity).

What keeps the WOD going isn't the money the government gets, it's the VOTES te politicians get. In short, you (collectively) keep it going. It's not just the WOD, either. Legislating against crime gets that frightened 80% to vote for them, no matter how silly the law is. We have legislators writing laws to oppose things they heard about happening in other countries, that are not know to have ever happened in KY. Why? Not fear of a crime wave, but just the fact that nothing gets votes from the herd like saying you passed "tough new criminal laws" at election time. Drugs crimes are just an easy target, like sex offenders and a few other hot topics.
Fewer criminals = smaller budgets = fewer cops and fewer toys

The war on drugs benefits police in the same way that any justification for additional resources benefits any government agency.
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Old 12-04-2011, 21:24   #121
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What are you comparing the "War on Drugs" to? How do you know it is ineffective? What is your expected results from it?

Is effective to you complete and absolute removal of drugs from our Earth? If you think that can be done - you are truly wrong. Almost every street drug has origins in plants. Cocaine, Heroin, Cannabis. Even if heroin is not made from the poppy plants, people will still smoke opium or any of the other byproducts of the plant to induce opiate effects.

They have prohibition on theft, but people still steal. Some people will always steal. If we had no laws and consequences for stealing - what would our society be like? Is our laws on theft failing?

Drugs are still the number one motivator for almost all crimes. Especially heroin and other opiates, but other drugs as well such as stimulants like cocaine, crack cocaine, meth create changes in the brain. Even after a few days use of heroin, your body will begin to create additional opiate receptors and will require more and more of the drug to produce the same euphoric effects. If you are unable to obtain heroin, your body will begin physical, mental, and emotional withdrawals.

To avoid withdrawals and also the needs, desire, and urges to obtain and use drugs are the number one motivator for crimes. You can make drugs legal, but until you can make them free, addicts will still need money to buy their dope. Most addicts can not retain jobs and will steal, rob, kill, or prostitute themselves for money to feed their addictions.

I live in a world of addicts. As a police officer I interview and deal with drug addicts who will do almost anything to get the money to get their dope. People who talk about legalizing all drugs are naive and do not understand drug addiction. The laws on drugs will help keep numbers down - but nothing will ever "Solve" the problem.

Can we take different approaches? Absolutely. Education, community enrichment and job growth, partnership and enforcement with source countries, medication and counseling, etc will all help keep our numbers down. Keeping the numbers down help keep the society clean and keeping your neighborhood so you want to live in it.
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Old 12-04-2011, 21:25   #122
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Why not put gun owners in prison?

Murder and rape are conduct that harm others - owning the gun used in the murder and rape is not and it can be used legally or illegally.

Committing murder and rape while under the influence of drugs (or, directly because of the war on drugs, to get drugs) are specific crimes already. Drugs can be used with or without committing other crimes, so why not take the pro-freedom approach and penalize the harmful conduct, like we do with guns. Paternalistic laws against possession and use have no place in a country that claims to be free. That doesn't eman we wouldn't still punish DUI/murder/rape/or even disorderly conduct by drug users.
Whpo took over your computer. 1st you agree with me and then you write something that I agree with. This can't be Bren.

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Old 12-04-2011, 21:35   #123
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You can make drugs legal, but until you can make them free, addicts will still need money to buy their dope. Most addicts can not retain jobs and will steal, rob, kill, or prostitute themselves for money to feed their addictions.
The Netherlands actually has a program where they supply free heroin to addicts.

Its actually been very successful in both reducing overall financial costs as well as related crime.
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Old 12-04-2011, 21:37   #124
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Originally Posted by K.Kiser View Post
I don't belive in treatment at all, to me that makes it look like a drug addict has a illness which they do not... A drug addict has a deficit of responsibility, accountability, concern toward others, healthy concern for themselves, and just all-around complete lack of judgement and a surplus of selfishness...

I like the appraoch my Dad has always mentioned... When drugs are confiscated, just poison the crap and put it back out on the streets... It will only kill who it needs to, and drugs will quickly start to carry a pretty lethal reputation and maybe it'll act as a deterrent... If it's not a deterrent, who gives a $h** cause it will just kill the ones that can't head a warning...

There comes a point with a serious problems that ya got to lose compassion, and just fix the ********** problem... I say F'em -- killem all...
It's time responsible and contributing citizens get all that they deserve from the society in which we've conributed to...

BTW - I've never smoked a joint in my life, but I don't think weed is a real big deal that needs to soak up much of our tax $$...
That's what Treatment in the Southwest pretty much is. Teaching things you listed. Can't speak for other parts of the country. Poisoning drugs? Pretty absolutist view, easy to follow and obey that kind of thinking. Kill all them well meaning teens who are experimenting? Seems like a shortcut to thinking. But that's the purpose of absolutism of any politic or belief. One does not have to think. Just obey.
Legalizing it? That may very well intensify the "drug wars." I'm sure all the drug cartels are just gonna give up their profits to pay Federal taxes and all the gangs are just gonna give sellin' it up so they can finally go to college. We are a cluster **** of interconnected webs all pulling in different directions. It's not like "the Government" is a homonegous unified entity all rolling foward for the same goal of the American dream. Their all fractured as well, different and competing agendas with plenty of folks who still work hard, trying to make the best out of a bad situation. My clinical suggestion? Gaurd your freedom, be a good parenting role model (do as I do, not as I say), find balance in contradiction (meaning adapt to crisis without emotions leading the charge) and the world will turn.
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Old 12-04-2011, 21:39   #125
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The Netherlands actually has a program where they supply free heroin to addicts.

Its actually been very successful in both reducing overall financial costs as well as related crime.
Canada also has a trial program that has been underway for the last 5+ years or so. It will be interesting to see the correlation between their participants and their trend for crime during the program and the rest of their stats.

Some people seem to really seek out opiate type drugs for other problems such as depression, motivation, energy,etc. I could see how it could reduce crime for addicts who are in deep into the drug. If they are able to "keep the sick off" without having to prostitute or rob, that might be the time for them to start learning to cope on their own. Suboxone has also been getting more and more popular in the US.

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