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Old 12-04-2011, 22:24   #121
Sharky7
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What are you comparing the "War on Drugs" to? How do you know it is ineffective? What is your expected results from it?

Is effective to you complete and absolute removal of drugs from our Earth? If you think that can be done - you are truly wrong. Almost every street drug has origins in plants. Cocaine, Heroin, Cannabis. Even if heroin is not made from the poppy plants, people will still smoke opium or any of the other byproducts of the plant to induce opiate effects.

They have prohibition on theft, but people still steal. Some people will always steal. If we had no laws and consequences for stealing - what would our society be like? Is our laws on theft failing?

Drugs are still the number one motivator for almost all crimes. Especially heroin and other opiates, but other drugs as well such as stimulants like cocaine, crack cocaine, meth create changes in the brain. Even after a few days use of heroin, your body will begin to create additional opiate receptors and will require more and more of the drug to produce the same euphoric effects. If you are unable to obtain heroin, your body will begin physical, mental, and emotional withdrawals.

To avoid withdrawals and also the needs, desire, and urges to obtain and use drugs are the number one motivator for crimes. You can make drugs legal, but until you can make them free, addicts will still need money to buy their dope. Most addicts can not retain jobs and will steal, rob, kill, or prostitute themselves for money to feed their addictions.

I live in a world of addicts. As a police officer I interview and deal with drug addicts who will do almost anything to get the money to get their dope. People who talk about legalizing all drugs are naive and do not understand drug addiction. The laws on drugs will help keep numbers down - but nothing will ever "Solve" the problem.

Can we take different approaches? Absolutely. Education, community enrichment and job growth, partnership and enforcement with source countries, medication and counseling, etc will all help keep our numbers down. Keeping the numbers down help keep the society clean and keeping your neighborhood so you want to live in it.
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Old 12-04-2011, 22:25   #122
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Why not put gun owners in prison?

Murder and rape are conduct that harm others - owning the gun used in the murder and rape is not and it can be used legally or illegally.

Committing murder and rape while under the influence of drugs (or, directly because of the war on drugs, to get drugs) are specific crimes already. Drugs can be used with or without committing other crimes, so why not take the pro-freedom approach and penalize the harmful conduct, like we do with guns. Paternalistic laws against possession and use have no place in a country that claims to be free. That doesn't eman we wouldn't still punish DUI/murder/rape/or even disorderly conduct by drug users.
Whpo took over your computer. 1st you agree with me and then you write something that I agree with. This can't be Bren.

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Old 12-04-2011, 22:35   #123
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You can make drugs legal, but until you can make them free, addicts will still need money to buy their dope. Most addicts can not retain jobs and will steal, rob, kill, or prostitute themselves for money to feed their addictions.
The Netherlands actually has a program where they supply free heroin to addicts.

Its actually been very successful in both reducing overall financial costs as well as related crime.
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Old 12-04-2011, 22:37   #124
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I don't belive in treatment at all, to me that makes it look like a drug addict has a illness which they do not... A drug addict has a deficit of responsibility, accountability, concern toward others, healthy concern for themselves, and just all-around complete lack of judgement and a surplus of selfishness...

I like the appraoch my Dad has always mentioned... When drugs are confiscated, just poison the crap and put it back out on the streets... It will only kill who it needs to, and drugs will quickly start to carry a pretty lethal reputation and maybe it'll act as a deterrent... If it's not a deterrent, who gives a $h** cause it will just kill the ones that can't head a warning...

There comes a point with a serious problems that ya got to lose compassion, and just fix the ********** problem... I say F'em -- killem all...
It's time responsible and contributing citizens get all that they deserve from the society in which we've conributed to...

BTW - I've never smoked a joint in my life, but I don't think weed is a real big deal that needs to soak up much of our tax $$...
That's what Treatment in the Southwest pretty much is. Teaching things you listed. Can't speak for other parts of the country. Poisoning drugs? Pretty absolutist view, easy to follow and obey that kind of thinking. Kill all them well meaning teens who are experimenting? Seems like a shortcut to thinking. But that's the purpose of absolutism of any politic or belief. One does not have to think. Just obey.
Legalizing it? That may very well intensify the "drug wars." I'm sure all the drug cartels are just gonna give up their profits to pay Federal taxes and all the gangs are just gonna give sellin' it up so they can finally go to college. We are a cluster **** of interconnected webs all pulling in different directions. It's not like "the Government" is a homonegous unified entity all rolling foward for the same goal of the American dream. Their all fractured as well, different and competing agendas with plenty of folks who still work hard, trying to make the best out of a bad situation. My clinical suggestion? Gaurd your freedom, be a good parenting role model (do as I do, not as I say), find balance in contradiction (meaning adapt to crisis without emotions leading the charge) and the world will turn.
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Old 12-04-2011, 22:39   #125
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The Netherlands actually has a program where they supply free heroin to addicts.

Its actually been very successful in both reducing overall financial costs as well as related crime.
Canada also has a trial program that has been underway for the last 5+ years or so. It will be interesting to see the correlation between their participants and their trend for crime during the program and the rest of their stats.

Some people seem to really seek out opiate type drugs for other problems such as depression, motivation, energy,etc. I could see how it could reduce crime for addicts who are in deep into the drug. If they are able to "keep the sick off" without having to prostitute or rob, that might be the time for them to start learning to cope on their own. Suboxone has also been getting more and more popular in the US.

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Old 12-04-2011, 22:40   #126
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Oh yeah, and these other countries that do have drugs legalized are like the size of the State I live in without such a diverse and classist population. Pretty soon all our hard earned tax money will go to Medicaid to pay for some lame ass's addiction.
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Old 12-04-2011, 22:44   #127
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Pretty soon all our hard earned tax money will go to Medicaid to pay for some lame ass's addiction.
You will be paying less than what you pay to fund the WoD.
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Old 12-04-2011, 23:09   #128
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Oh yeah, and these other countries that do have drugs legalized are like the size of the State I live in without such a diverse and classist population. Pretty soon all our hard earned tax money will go to Medicaid to pay for some lame ass's addiction.
So end Medicaid.
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Old 12-04-2011, 23:33   #129
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So end Medicaid.
As pleasing as that sounds, it would never be as easy as it sounds. But at least it could be more selective. And I doubt that it would lesson the cost of taxes much. Any profits would likely get sucked in fight the newer war on drugs. Maybe. I don't use any illicit drugs and think that weed is far less criminal than all the other stuff out there. DUI's on weed are still DUE's though. What ever the decision and outcome, I''l be curious to see what happens.
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Old 12-04-2011, 23:43   #130
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As it stands now, until my 65th birthday I will be drug tested regularly by employers/FAA and I have absolutely no problem with that. That being said, I truly believe there is no reason whatsoever to continue to prohibit marijuana and not only decriminalization but actual legalization should occur. Make it legal and tax it at a rate of 200%-300%. Use tax to reduce the margins and commercialize it. Use the revenue for a whole lot of things. This would also result in a loss of income for criminal enterprizes. Win win win.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:13   #131
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Paternalistic laws against possession and use have no place in a country that claims to be free.
Drug users should be punished because they are nothing more then a pathetic parasite that destroys everything it touches IMO,
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:35   #132
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So end Medicaid.
Agreed once again. Or at least severely cut it back. The "we have to fight drugs because of the public healthcare ccost" is an absolutely BS argument. We voluntarily decided to pay for the healthcare and now we use that as a justification for the WoD? The same argument is used for motorcycle helmet laws, "we are justified in taking away your freedom, because we chose to pay for medical care for some people."
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:38   #133
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Drug users should be punished because they are nothing more then a pathetic parasite that destroys everything it touches IMO,
I agree. That may surprise you, if you don't think hard about what I wrote. I don't like drug users and I don't use drugs. However, the best way to punish only those who deserve it is to legalize drugs and let them punish themselves. That way also hurts non-drug users the least and eliminates the violant crime of the drug black market, that spills over onto the rest of us.

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Whpo took over your computer. 1st you agree with me and then you write something that I agree with. This can't be Bren.

-Dana
It only seems that way, because I didn't point out things like liberals eliminating themselves from politics through their drug use, or how I would take away any public healthcare funding for drug related conditions, etc.
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:40   #134
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Drug users should be punished because they are nothing more then a pathetic parasite that destroys everything it touches IMO,
I take it you never drink coffee, beer, nicotine, opiate prescription medications, etc..

I also take it that you never knew anyone in your life that struggled with addiction..

Tell me what kills more people every year, alcohol or every other drug combined..

Frankly you make me sick.. I think dumb-ass people who make dumb-ass comments should be punished too.. But alas, its not illegal to be an ignorant jerk-off..
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:50   #135
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Drug users should be punished because they are nothing more then a pathetic parasite that destroys everything it touches IMO,
Some of them are top-level contributors to society. Why do you want to punish them?
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:51   #136
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Some of them are top-level contributors to society. Why do you want to punish them?
Yea, like the last two Presidents (ok bad example.. but they both used to do blow, weed, and booze back in the day)

And Clinton didn't "inhale"

Steve Jobs also cited dropping acid as one of the best decisions of his life, and so on and so forth..

Humans have been doing drugs since before recorded history..

I am more worried about the ones that take the attitude of ole corncob up my butt.. Either they are a self-hating drug addict, or they are just a bad person..
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Old 12-05-2011, 05:58   #137
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Yea, like the last two Presidents (ok bad example.. but they both used to do blow, weed, and booze back in the day)

And Clinton didn't "inhale"

Steve Jobs also cited dropping acid as one of the best decisions of his life, and so on and so forth..

Humans have been doing drugs since before recorded history..

I am more worried about the ones that take the attitude of ole corncob up my butt.. Either they are a self-hating drug addict, or they are just a bad person..
I've listed here before the uber successful marijuana users I am personally friends with. MD, EE with MBA, owns a chain of assisted living centers across the southeast....those types.....For the life of me I just can't figure out what they need to be punished for?
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:04   #138
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I've listed here before the uber successful marijuana users I am personally friends with. MD, EE with MBA, owns a chain of assisted living centers across the southeast....those types.....For the life of me I just can't figure out what they need to be punished for?
Yea, and every alcohol commercial focuses on the fact that if you drink this whiskey you are refined and intelligent, if you drink this beer you are fun and outgoing, the life of the party. If you drink corona then you are looking for relaxation. If you drink this vodka you are stylish and independent..

Every person in America from the age of 5 on sees these commercials, yet that is perfectly fine. But the plant that has existed since before humans ever even came on the scene.. Nope, evil, people who use it are evil, they will smoke weed once and then bam, the next day they will be a murdering, thieving junkies..

I will never understand how people's brains work.. Its unbelievable to me.

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Old 12-05-2011, 06:04   #139
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If the feds decide to make money off of it, you can believe the "war on drugs" will be over with very quickly. Tax it like tobacco and alcohol, problem solved. But they won't end it because millions of narc agents and such would lose their jobs, not to mention it would cause public uproar.

Why...

Because having a "war on drugs" makes for good PR...it's gives the general public the idea that we're actually accomplishing something.

Why...

Because they named it perfectly to get the sheeple to support it. A "war". Anytime you say the word "war" people feed into it because they automatically think that anything we declare war on is bad. So, a "war" on drugs means any drug that's deemed illegal by the .gov is the enemy.

Last edited by tantrix; 12-05-2011 at 06:46..
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Old 12-05-2011, 06:17   #140
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I never looked it that way before. Very interesting.


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If the feds decide to make money off of it, you can believe the "war on drugs" will be over with very quickly. Tax it like tobacco and alcohol, problem solved. But they won't end it because millions of narc agents and such would lose their jobs, not to mention it would cause public uproar.

Why...

Because having a "war on drugs" makes for good PR...it's gives the general public the idea that we're actually accomplishing something.

Why...

Because they named it perfectly to get the sheeple to support it. A "war". Anytime you say the word "war" people feed into it because they automatically think that anything we declare war on is bad. So, a "war" on drugs means any drug that deemed illegal by the .gov is the enemy.
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