[Bruce M]

Originally Posted by holesinpaper

You're stuck in 1977.

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14...off-drug-trade

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Forfeiture

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...65073870.html?

2x more statues added in 20 years -- all expanding the government's ability to seize assets. Yeah, great idea that WoD.

I could go on with examples nearly forever.

The statutes and policy I quoted are current, not from 1977. Even the link you provided above indicates that for a forfeiture to occur it has to proven in civil court that there is a nexus between the cash (or property) or proven in criminal court after a conviction. That is not 1977, that is currently the law. I can understand that you do not agree with the law, and I agree that the forfeiture laws have increased dramatically. However as was suggested in the original post that I responded to that the police can just take the money with no due process and keep it without proving a nexus to felonious activity is just not true.

[RyanBDawg]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

I disagree. The majority of current street crime motivation is still money to obtain drugs.

You create more addicts - those addicts still need money to buy their dope. That money comes from you and me, either through our taxes or property crime.

The Netherlands has less of a percentage of its citizens using marijuana and even hard drugs than the United States does.. So that proves you wrong.. In fact study after study has proven that attitude wrong..

The legalization, or relaxation of drug laws have in most circumstances reduced crime..

You know what really costs you and I money? The 30,000 per year that it takes to keep a drug offender locked in prison..

It would actually be far cheaper to provide them with free drugs...

[stevelyn]

Alcohol prohibition didn't work and we changed that. We need to do the same with drugs.

[tantrix]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

I disagree. The majority of current street crime motivation is still money to obtain drugs.

You create more addicts - those addicts still need money to buy their dope. That money comes from you and me, either through our taxes or property crime.

So, tell me how much of our tax dollars do we get back by paying the salary of millions of narcotics agents, and also incarcerating millions of people for something as stupid as possession w/ intent to distribute marijuana?

I haven't done ANY research at all, and I would bet we get back about 5-10% of what we spend. And people wonder why we are trillions of dollars in debt? Because we're dumbasses, that's why.

[Sharky7]

Originally Posted by RyanBDawg

The Netherlands has less of a percentage of its citizens using marijuana and even hard drugs than the United States does.. So that proves you wrong.. In fact study after study has proven that attitude wrong..

The legislation, or relaxation of drug laws have in most circumstances reduced crime..

My facts are not "wrong." I work as a police officer in the Chicago area. We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.

Very few people will end up as prostitutes without a bad addiction. I talk hours on end with these people and hear their stories. I have NEVER arrested a prostitute without a drug problem.

Home invasions, vehicle burglaries, home burglaries, retail thefts etc. Mostly obtaining property to then pawn/resell/black market to then get money to buy their dope.

[holesinpaper]

Originally Posted by certifiedfunds

Nancy Reagan would LOVE heroin.

Wasn't in the cards.

[stevelyn]

Originally Posted by Danny Reid

Easy. Say we legalize it all tomorrow. In the libertarian world, that would be the end of it. That isn't reality, though. Hand in hand with legalization would come regulation. Color me dubious, but when I think of addicts the thought that they are the sort to operate within specific constraints seems a bit goofy.

Who knows? Maybe some crackheads and Meth users may be willing to go through proper channels in order to get their fix once it's legalized, but I kinda doubt it.

Yeah.......... Just like drunks and alcoholics go through illegal channels to get booze.

[holesinpaper]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

My facts are not "wrong." I work as a police officer in the Chicago area. We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.

Very few people will end up as prostitutes without a bad addiction. I talk hours on end with these people and hear their stories. I have NEVER arrested a prostitute without a drug problem.

Home invasions, vehicle burglaries, home burglaries, retail thefts etc. Mostly obtaining property to then pawn/resell/black market to then get money to buy their dope.

The problem is, this becomes circular logic.

• Drugs are illegal so they become expensive.
• Addicts can't afford drugs so the steal.
• Stealing addicts are proof drugs must be kept illegal.
• We ratchet up the WoD so drugs become even more expensive.
• Addicts steal more stuff.
• See, this is proof drugs must remain illegal, give us more tax dollars and power/control please.

This logic does not hold water.

Your prostitution argument is also weak. Keeping prostitution in the black market will almost necessarily cause it to be linked to drug use for obvious reasons.

[Sharky7]

Originally Posted by RyanBDawg

The Netherlands has less of a percentage of its citizens using marijuana and even hard drugs than the United States does.. So that proves you wrong.. In fact study after study has proven that attitude wrong..

The legislation, or relaxation of drug laws have in most circumstances reduced crime..

You know what really costs you and I money? The 30,000 per year that it takes to keep a drug offender locked in prison..

It would actually be far cheaper to provide them with free drugs...

Is that really the answer long term? Do you want to live in a socialist country? I am a firm believer in people working hard and providing for themselves in our society. I do not want to support addicts long term who are of no benefit to our society.

[ocjackel]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

My facts are not "wrong." I work as a police officer in the Chicago area. We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.

Very few people will end up as prostitutes without a bad addiction. I talk hours on end with these people and hear their stories. I have NEVER arrested a prostitute without a drug problem.

Home invasions, vehicle burglaries, home burglaries, retail thefts etc. Mostly obtaining property to then pawn/resell/black market to then get money to buy their dope.

"Money to obtain drugs" is certainly a huge motivator for crime. However, what if the cost of their respective habits were suddenly reduced by 90%? (as it happened with the end of prohibition). Wouldn't these drug users who commit crimes to pay for their habit at the very least have to steal 90% less money to support their habit?

In other words, they could steal a 10th of what they are stealing now for the same "high".

[Sharky7]

Originally Posted by holesinpaper

The problem is, this becomes circular logic.

• Drugs are illegal so they become expensive.
• Addicts can't afford drugs so the steal.
• Stealing addicts are proof drugs must be kept illegal.
• We ratchet up the WoD so drugs become even more expensive.
• Addicts steal more stuff.
• See, this is proof drugs must remain illegal, give us more tax dollars and power/control please.

This logic does not hold water.

Drugs are the cheapest they have been in a while in Chicago.

$10 a bag of heroin

$100 for a jab which is 13 bags.

The problem is tolerance. You can get high all day off 1 bag your first few days.....you will always need more. It has nothing to do with government wars or oversight - it is simply science related to opiate addiction. You will always need more to obtain euphoric effects.

[certifiedfunds]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

My facts are not "wrong." I work as a police officer in the Chicago area. We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.

Very few people will end up as prostitutes without a bad addiction. I talk hours on end with these people and hear their stories. I have NEVER arrested a prostitute without a drug problem.

Home invasions, vehicle burglaries, home burglaries, retail thefts etc. Mostly obtaining property to then pawn/resell/black market to then get money to buy their dope.

You ever read up much on "root cause"

[Sharky7]

Originally Posted by holesinpaper

Your prostitution argument is also weak. Keeping prostitution in the black market will almost necessarily cause it to be linked to drug use for obvious reasons.

It's not a prostitution "argument." It's just the truth from a street cop who sees it every day. If you are in the area, let me know and come on a ride along.

Prostitution is not like Pretty Woman the movie. It's pretty gross...like I said I spend hours talking to these people.

[frank4570]

Originally Posted by ocjackel

"Money to obtain drugs" is certainly a huge motivator for crime. However, what if the cost of their respective habits were suddenly reduced by 90%? (as it happened with the end of prohibition). Wouldn't these drug users who commit crimes to pay for their habit at the very least have to steal 90% less money to support their habit?

In other words, they could steal a 10th of what they are stealing now for the same "high".

Steal? Hell, if the price was reasonable people would just work a job half a day to get the money. Digging ditches or whatever. Why risk going to jail when you can get the money through legal means.

[tantrix]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

My facts are not "wrong." I work as a police officer in the Chicago area. We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.

Very few people will end up as prostitutes without a bad addiction. I talk hours on end with these people and hear their stories. I have NEVER arrested a prostitute without a drug problem.

Home invasions, vehicle burglaries, home burglaries, retail thefts etc. Mostly obtaining property to then pawn/resell/black market to then get money to buy their dope.

Yea, you're also in the cesspool known as Chicago. I have worked several different branches of law enforcement in Louisiana all of my life, never anywhere else, and you're experiences don't exactly match up with mine. Many prostitutes chose that profession because they grew up in abusive homes, ran away, and needed an income. The drug problem came later after they were living on the streets, which is common.

By your account, you believe that most women become prostitutes because they are drug addicts...that isn't the case.

[DanaT]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

$10 a bag of heroin

$100 for a jab which is 13 bags.

Well, we have established that 1) you a police officer 2) a drug user or 3) a drug dealer.

I don't know what a jab is nor the prices.

-Dana

[RyanBDawg]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

My facts are not "wrong." I work as a police officer in the Chicago area. We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.

Very few people will end up as prostitutes without a bad addiction. I talk hours on end with these people and hear their stories. I have NEVER arrested a prostitute without a drug problem.

Home invasions, vehicle burglaries, home burglaries, retail thefts etc. Mostly obtaining property to then pawn/resell/black market to then get money to buy their dope.

Chicago also had a total gun ban for many, many years.. How did that work out? Well I'll bet there was zero gun crime in Chicago during the time of that gun ban, I mean it was the law and everything...

So again what is preferable, having needle exchanges, specified areas where addicts can shoot up in a supervised environment as many cities in Europe are doing (and have seen such associated crime drop as a result, because more addicts wind up entering rehab because of these programs) or continuing along the same road of a never ending cycle that we have right now?

[RyanBDawg]

And another thought.. All of you worried that drug legalization will lead to more people doing drugs, I can assure you that at no point in the history of America or the world for that matter have so many people been on drugs.. The prescription drug rates are astounding in this country, one in ten are on antidepressants, millions more regularly use powerful prescription narcotics.. Accidental OD rates have never been higher, etc..

Far, far more of a percentage of people are using drugs today (the majority perfectly legal prescriptions) advertised daily by multi-billion dollar drug companies on TV, Radio, and Magazines..

Hell, in the scheme of things, the Mexican cartels don't have anything on Bayer and Pfizer..

[Sharky7]

Originally Posted by RyanBDawg

Chicago also had a total gun ban for many, many years.. How did that work out? Well I'll bet there was zero gun crime in Chicago during the time of that gun ban, I mean it was the law and everything...

So again what is preferable, having needle exchanges, specified areas where addicts can shoot up in a supervised environment as many cities.in Europe are doing (and have seen such associated crime drop.as a result, because more addicts wind up entering rehab because of these programs) or continuing along the same road of a never ending cycle?

The difference is I see the repeal of the gun ban decreasing crime.

We already have lots of addict relief and rehab programs. Methadone clinics, suboxone doctors, rehab centers, needle exchanges, etc.

[certifiedfunds]

It is just baffling to me. Ethanol prohibition is an exact parallel for this and folks refuse to see how it is exactly the same.

Even the "street cops from Chicago"

[RyanBDawg]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

The difference is I see the repeal of the gun ban decreasing crime.

Well you just answered you own questions about the effectiveness of drug prohibition..

We all know the real reason why Chicago has such high crime rates, but it's not politically correct to say so, so I'll just keep my mouth shut..

Let's just say that rot and decay comes from the top in areas like that... Drug use is a symptom, not a cause.

If I grew up in such circumstances as many drug users in Chicago do, then I, you and many others would also probably wind up using hard drugs..

[certifiedfunds]

Originally Posted by RyanBDawg

Well you just answered you own questions about the effectiveness of drug prohibition..

I think that's gonna fly right by him.

[frank4570]

Dude, would you just shut up?
Everybody knows that people using legal narcotics(scrips) are good people, and a person using pot is a dirty hippie commie.
Being an oxycotin junkie is ok if you look like corporate america. Not that hard to understand really.

Originally Posted by RyanBDawg

And another thought.. All of you worried that drug legalization will lead to more people doing drugs, I can assure you that at no point in the history of America or the world for that matter have so many people been on drugs.. The prescription drug rates are astounding in this country, one in ten are on antidepressants, millions more regularly use powerful prescription narcotics.. Accidental OD rates have never been higher, etc..

Far, far more of a percentage of people are using drugs today (the majority perfectly legal prescriptions) advertised daily by multi-billion dollar drug companies on TV, Radio, and Magazines..

Hell, in the scheme of things, the Mexican cartels don't have anything on Bayer and Pfizer..

[Mister_Beefy]

the government gets too much money and derives too much authority from the war on drugs for them to ever give it up.

[holesinpaper]

Originally Posted by Sharky7

It's not a prostitution "argument." It's just the truth from a street cop who sees it every day. If you are in the area, let me know and come on a ride along.

Your nose is too close to the picture to actually see the whole image for what it is.

Your professional biases and preconceptions also make it nearly impossible, but the odds go up that you'll change -- after you retire (ala Norm Stamper).