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Old 12-05-2011, 07:27   #141
Bruce M
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
Seriously? Do you live in a cave?

Get pulled over with any "suspicious" amount of cash, and the LEO can seize it and use it. You do not necessarily have any recourse to get it back -- no due process.

There have been countless cases. Google it yourself, or start by searching riddit, boingboing or digg to save some time.

War on Drugs is about power, control, and money -- it's not actually about drugs per say (imho).

No I do not live in a cave. However, as little as I get out, I also do not live solely on the internet. Here, seizure of cash or other property is governed by FSS 896 FSS 560 et. al. and Title 31. Before the cash or other property is forfeited an Adverserial Preliminary Hearing must be held within ten days and a Complaint/Petition for Forfeiture must be filed within 45 days. There are some other requirements also. Long before the cash or other property is actually forfeited to the state and/or federal government, (and it tends to not be used directly by the LEOs that seized it but rather goes into trust funds which are also controlled by statute) attorneys at a couple different levels and at least a couple court hearings occur. A nexus between the cash or other property and felony activity must be established. To suggest there is no recourse or no due process sounds very much like common internet "wisdom" however in the real world it works just a touch differently. Unless the officer committed a crime and stole the money, when someone tells you the police took their money for no reason, a substantial part of the story is missing.
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Old 12-05-2011, 07:44   #142
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Drug users should be punished because they are nothing more then a pathetic parasite that destroys everything it touches IMO,
A man like this cannot be reasoned with, because he is not in touch with reason and reality.

Its no different than believing that only violent thugs own guns. Both claims are objectively false.

Last edited by Lampshade; 12-05-2011 at 07:49..
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Old 12-05-2011, 08:59   #143
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I agree.It only seems that way, because I didn't point out things like liberals eliminating themselves from politics through their drug use, or how I would take away any public healthcare funding for drug related conditions, etc.
Once, again, see I agree.

What I woulddo, is anyone over 18 legalize drugs but with the condition if they OD, they diein the street unless they can pay for their hospital care. They commit crimes while on drugs, then it would be treated like committing a small crime with firearms, what may go from stealing $20 an a ticket is now an automatic felony with a minimum sentence because drugs were involved.

Get caught knowingly selling drugs to someone under 18, get a nice drug injection.

Tax the stuff.

As much as I don't believe in the drug use, taxing and regulating it is the way to go. When someone has health issue because of their drug use it is their responsibility to pay or no treatment.

-Dana
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Old 12-05-2011, 09:07   #144
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I agree
It only seems that way, because I didn't point out things like liberals eliminating themselves from politics through their drug use, or how I would take away any public healthcare funding for drug related conditions, etc.
One of the things that REALLY screwed this country up has been eluded to in this thread but no said outright.

At somepoint, emergency medicalcare became a RIGHT. Emergency care cannit refuse treatment based upon payment. It even because a right for foriegn nationals who are not in the country legally.

What has happened is that now when care is needed, regardless if it is a real emergency or not, one simply goes to the emergency room. Since the flu is now an emergency, they have to at least see the patient.

This moves straight into the drug related world. Have drug issues, its now an emergency.

Why is it MY problem to pay for SOMEONE ELSES bad decisions?

There has been thread after thread about how someone else should pay for others poor decisions. A few days a ago a thread saying I should pay to insure myself against someone elses poor driving because they can not afford to replace a mercedes they run into (I don't have a M-B btw).

Now, I should pay for drug re-hab for people.

The amount of money I pay out is amazing and what do I get for it? Hell, I can't even get smooth streets to drive on...

-Dana
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Old 12-05-2011, 13:10   #145
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Originally Posted by M&P Shooter View Post
Drug users should be punished because they are nothing more then a pathetic parasite that destroys everything it [they] touches IMO.,
Says the uneducated man, who can't use proper grammar and punctuation.

You must be on drugs. Or you're just a useless drag on the productive, educated members of society.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-05-2011 at 13:14..
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Old 12-05-2011, 13:21   #146
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Now, I should pay for drug re-hab for people.

The amount of money I pay out is amazing and what do I get for it? Hell, I can't even get smooth streets to drive on...

-Dana
You're right.

It makes way more sense to spend all that money just shoving them into cells. That produces long term positive changes (in the drug addicts, and society).

As a bonus, it's much cheaper to fund the interdiction/enforcement/court/prison system than anything that involves real rehab for drug abusers.

(That was sarcasm, in case you missed it)

While I agree society should not pay for drug addict rehabilitation, it's stupid to pay more for the current incarceration 'solution' because we are irrationally adhering to a failed battle plan.

Assuming we'll always be forced to pay one way or another, pick something that maximizes freedom and also happens to cost less.
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Old 12-05-2011, 13:28   #147
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
No I do not live in a cave. However, as little as I get out, I also do not live solely on the internet. Here, seizure of cash or other property is governed by FSS 896 FSS 560 et. al. and Title 31. Before the cash or other property is forfeited an Adverserial Preliminary Hearing must be held within ten days and a Complaint/Petition for Forfeiture must be filed within 45 days. There are some other requirements also. Long before the cash or other property is actually forfeited to the state and/or federal government, (and it tends to not be used directly by the LEOs that seized it but rather goes into trust funds which are also controlled by statute) attorneys at a couple different levels and at least a couple court hearings occur. A nexus between the cash or other property and felony activity must be established. To suggest there is no recourse or no due process sounds very much like common internet "wisdom" however in the real world it works just a touch differently. Unless the officer committed a crime and stole the money, when someone tells you the police took their money for no reason, a substantial part of the story is missing.
You're stuck in 1977.

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14...off-drug-trade

Quote:
laws that let officers pull driver over looking for cash. Those officers do not even have to file criminal charges against a person to take his/her money.
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Forfeiture

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"Administrative forfeiture is the process by which property may be forfeited to the United States without judicial involvement. Federal seizing agencies perform administrative forfeitures. Seizures must be based on probable cause. The authority for a seizing agency to start an administrative forfeiture action is found in 19 U.S.C. § 1607.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...65073870.html?

Quote:
He is one among thousands of Americans in recent decades who have had a jarring introduction to the federal system of asset seizure. Some 400 federal statutes—a near-doubling, by one count, since the 1990
2x more statues added in 20 years -- all expanding the government's ability to seize assets. Yeah, great idea that WoD.

I could go on with examples nearly forever.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-05-2011 at 13:43..
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Old 12-05-2011, 13:31   #148
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Originally Posted by RyanBDawg View Post
I am more worried about the ones that take the attitude of ole corncob up my butt.. Either they are a self-hating drug addict, or they are just a bad person..
Civil Liberties Issues
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Old 12-05-2011, 13:41   #149
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Originally Posted by Bruce M View Post
Here, seizure of cash or other property is governed by FSS 896 FSS 560 et. al. and Title 31. Before the cash or other property is forfeited an Adverserial Preliminary Hearing must be held within ten days and a Complaint/Petition for Forfeiture must be filed within 45 days. There are some other requirements also. Long before the cash or other property is actually forfeited to the state and/or federal government, (and it tends to not be used directly by the LEOs that seized it but rather goes into trust funds which are also controlled by statute) attorneys at a couple different levels and at least a couple court hearings occur. A nexus between the cash or other property and felony activity must be established. To suggest there is no recourse or no due process sounds very much like common internet "wisdom" however in the real world it works just a touch differently.
http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories...-money-seizure

Quote:
Police never held a news conference or issued a news release on the seizure, nor would they elaborate on it when asked after word leaked out of the police department days later. To learn more, the Yakima Herald-Republic filed a public records request.


Officials now say they kept the case under wraps in part out of fear that someone would file a bogus claim for the cash that could have tied the money up in court for years
Ahh yes, the police keep the money secret until after the deadline has passed (for claiming it) just so they can up the odds of keeping it. Genius!

http://union-bulletin.com/stories/20...izure-decision
Quote:
10 percent of the cash will go to the state under a requirement of state law and the rest will be used by the city for the war on drugs.
90% of the seized cash goes directly to police and city coffers. You are wrong about so much.

Last edited by holesinpaper; 12-05-2011 at 13:41..
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Old 12-05-2011, 14:38   #150
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
You're right.

It makes way more sense to spend all that money just shoving them into cells. That produces long term positive changes (in the drug addicts, and society).

As a bonus, it's much cheaper to fund the interdiction/enforcement/court/prison system than anything that involves real rehab for drug abusers.

(That was sarcasm, in case you missed it)

While I agree society should not pay for drug addict rehabilitation, it's stupid to pay more for the current incarceration 'solution' because we are irrationally adhering to a failed battle plan.

Assuming we'll always be forced to pay one way or another, pick something that maximizes freedom and also happens to cost less.
You missed my point. I said earlier that I think the drug addicts should be able to have their drugs but I shouldn't be required to pay for their medical costs. If the commit a crime (i.e. robbery) on drugs then it should be do not pass go. Let them have them. But if they commit a crime while on the drugs or because of the drugs, then the wrath of society should be placed on them.

My point is I pay lot of taxes and get very little from it. I shouldn't be paying for yet another program that is based upon another persons actions.

-Dana
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Old 12-05-2011, 14:43   #151
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You missed my point. I said earlier that I think the drug addicts should be able to have their drugs but I shouldn't be required to pay for their medical costs. If the commit a crime (i.e. robbery) on drugs then it should be do not pass go. Let them have them. But if they commit a crime while on the drugs or because of the drugs, then the wrath of society should be placed on them.
I assume you feel the same way about alcohol.
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Old 12-05-2011, 14:55   #152
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I assume you feel the same way about alcohol.
Yes. Why should I pay for someone else's problems with alcohol? It causes a lot of medical conditions and stupidity.

There is one difference between alcohol and other drugs. For millenia alcohol has been cultural. It was used in winters to have calories and nutrients from the grain/fruit that wouldn't store and it also was used to purify water.

Like it or not, some historical behaviors are what they are. That does not mean we have to accept new poor behaviors because some old ones are part of culture.

-Dana
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Old 12-05-2011, 14:57   #153
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If the commit a crime (i.e. robbery) on drugs then it should be do not pass go.
I agree with that 100%. I might even go so far as to make drug use in that context a sentence enhancer -- if only because that tactic would appeal to law and order types.

As to medicare, if you have a socialist program of wealth re-distribution then it ought to go to everyone. Sure that isn't fair, but then it already isn't fair.
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Old 12-05-2011, 14:57   #154
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Drug users should be punished because they are nothing more then a pathetic parasite that destroys everything it touches IMO,
Just like every person who drinks a beer is a worthless drunk.
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Old 12-05-2011, 14:58   #155
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Yes. Why should I pay for someone else's problems with alcohol? It causes a lot of medical conditions and stupidity.

There is one difference between alcohol and other drugs. For millenia alcohol has been cultural. It was used in winters to have calories and nutrients from the grain/fruit that wouldn't store and it also was used to purify water.

Like it or not, some historical behaviors are what they are. That does not mean we have to accept new poor behaviors because some old ones are part of culture.

-Dana
An historical appeal? Geesh.

Is 2700 years historical enough for you?

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Old 12-05-2011, 14:59   #156
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Yes. Why should I pay for someone else's problems with alcohol? It causes a lot of medical conditions and stupidity.
Cool, just wanted to see if you were logically consistent, as many aren't.

I think your philosophy of "I only want to pay for the things which directly affect me" is pretty backwards and selfish, but at least you're logically consistent.

Obese people who suffer cardiac arrest should also be left to die too, right? Unless EMS can verify their assets before rendering aid?

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What I woulddo, is anyone over 18 legalize drugs but with the condition if they OD, they diein the street unless they can pay for their hospital care.
I wonder, for instance, how this would be determined? No cash on your persons, EMS lets you expire?

Its really a silly, dystopian idea.

Last edited by Lampshade; 12-05-2011 at 15:06..
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Old 12-05-2011, 15:00   #157
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Just like every person who drinks a beer is a worthless drunk.
Just the drunk ones.
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Old 12-05-2011, 15:03   #158
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There is one difference between alcohol and other drugs. For millenia alcohol has been cultural. It was used in winters to have calories and nutrients from the grain/fruit that wouldn't store and it also was used to purify water.
That is a difference between alcohol and some other drugs, not all other drugs.
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Old 12-05-2011, 15:09   #159
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That is a difference between alcohol and some other drugs, not all other drugs.
There's a problem with his underlying premise: "culture should never change."

Alcohol is ok, because it's always been ok.

Crystal Meth is not ok, because it has never been ok before.

Heart transplants are not ok, because they have never been ok before.

Women voting is not ok, because it has never been ok before.

Etc.

It's bad logic, and bad moral theory. Culture, like language, is dynamic.

Also, there's a medical problem with his viewpoint: alcohol is a drug. Ergo, there is no difference between alcohol and... other drugs (by definition, effect and practice).
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Old 12-05-2011, 16:55   #160
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That is a difference between alcohol and some other drugs, not all other drugs.
Yea, there is a difference.. Alcohol kills more people every year than all other drugs combined.. How many innocent people die every year due to accidents involving drunk drivers?

No other drug comes close in terms of the amount of deaths and injuries to innocent bystanders..
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