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Old 12-05-2011, 16:57   #161
RyanBDawg
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
Civil Liberties Issues
Hahahaha.. Yep, a great example of a self hating drug addict who is also a very bad person..

But he got his pills by doctor shopping with a prescription and not off the street, so somehow that is different, and he should be afforded medical treatment for addiction while others should be as he put it....

"And so if people are violating the law by doing drugs, they ought to be accused and they ought to be convicted and they ought to be sent up. -Rush Limbaugh"
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:01   #162
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Originally Posted by Lampshade View Post
That is a difference between alcohol and some other drugs, not all other drugs.
Other than alcohol and tobacco (and tobacco is recent) what other drugs have been historically accepted in western society?

Also, a large difference is that people can drink wine/beer for the flavor and the intent is not to get a buzz or drunk. The ONLY reason for weed/coke/meth/etc is to get high.

Please enlighten me to a use of what we call "recreational" drugs used in/on the human body that is not used with the intent of getting high/stoned/a fix/ what ever you want to call "under the influence".

-Dana
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:04   #163
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
There's a problem with his underlying premise: "culture should never change."

<>>

It's bad logic, and bad moral theory. Culture, like language, is dynamic.
No. It is not bad logic. You can take a legal activity such as sex. Between a man and wife, society says it is acceptable. Between a man and a prostitute, it is not acceptable. There is actually no difference in the physical actions that make one right and one wrong but society has determined that one is acceptable and one isn't. This has many historical reasons (i.e. bastards generally were not well supported, etc).

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Old 12-05-2011, 17:07   #164
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No. It is not bad logic. You can take a legal activity such as sex. Between a man and wife, society says it is acceptable. Between a man and a prostitute, it is not acceptable. There is actually no difference in the physical actions that make one right and one wrong but society has determined that one is acceptable and one isn't. This has many historical reasons (i.e. bastards generally were not well supported, etc).

-Dana

Prostitution is 100% legal in a number of countries around the world.. In fact it's commonly referred to as "the worlds oldest profession"
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:12   #165
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Other than alcohol and tobacco (and tobacco is recent) what other drugs have been historically accepted in western society?

Wow, you don't study history at all do you..

What other drugs have been accepted in western society? Uhhhh, all of them up until the early to mid 20th century..

You could go to any general store or pharmacy from the 1700s up until the 1920s or so any buy any drug, heroin, cocaine, laudanum, amphetamines, opium, cannabis, etc...

The first drug laws were aimed at immigrants and blacks..

Civil Liberties Issues

Civil Liberties Issues

Civil Liberties Issues
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:22   #166
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In fact here is a reprint of the 1897 Sears catalogue in which you could buy cocaine, heroin, opium, laudanum, amphetamines, "nerve pills" for women, etc..

http://books.google.com/books?id=pav...page&q&f=false

Civil Liberties Issues

Civil Liberties Issues

Civil Liberties Issues
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:27   #167
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Cocaine is still approved for medical use as a numbing agent. It doesn't mean it was accepted as a social drug as a stimulant.

The amount of heroin that was in the cough agents is comparable to the same amount of codeine that is in today's prescribed cough syrup. Not as a social use opiate.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:30   #168
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
Cocaine is still approved for medical use as a numbing agent. It doesn't mean it was accepted as a social drug as a stimulant.

The amount of heroin that was in the cough agents is comparable to the same amount of codeine that is in today's prescribed cough syrup. Not as a social use opiate.
Yea, I'm sure nobody back then ever abused drugs or used any of those drugs solely to get high or anything.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:31   #169
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Yea, I'm sure nobody back then ever abused drugs or used any of those drugs solely to get high or anything.
People still abuse them to get high today....not sure what your point is?
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:32   #170
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
http://www.yakima-herald.com/stories...-money-seizure

Ahh yes, the police keep the money secret until after the deadline has passed (for claiming it) just so they can up the odds of keeping it. Genius!

http://union-bulletin.com/stories/20...izure-decision
90% of the seized cash goes directly to police and city coffers. You are wrong about so much.
I am not sure elsewhere, but here the statute has no requirement for any press release/perp walk for the cash. There is however a requirement that anyone with a reasonable claim to the money be notified of the action to forfeit it in a timely manner, i.e. five days. I am unsure that an action in front of a Superior Court Judge and then in front of an appelate court of three justices really qualifies as "secret." The article that I read suggested that the money goes to the city for the was on drugs. Again, I can't comment on another jurisdiction, but here the money would go into a trust fund that is controlled by statute and as such has strict guidlelines for usage.


On a slightly related note I remain amazed at how accurate we presume the media to be when they report a story we like. But that might be the same media that refers to every handgun as a Glock and every long gun as an assault rifle or an AK47.

Further I am reasonably sure that most honest people do not transport tens of thousands of dollars in secret compartments in vehicles. But maybe some places are more dangerous than here.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:34   #171
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People still abuse them to get high today....not sure what your point is?
That is my point... Humans have been using drugs and getting high since day one.. A government starting a "war" to attempt to get rid of this has been a 40 plus year running joke that has cost hundreds of billions and only made drug abuse and associated problems much, much worse..

If you want to get rid of drug use, then the only way to do that is by unabashed genocide upon the human race, and I don't think the US government is going to do that..

What is worse, selling heroin in the Sears catalog, or having a drug cartel sell it?
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:38   #172
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Nancy Reagan would LOVE heroin.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:46   #173
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Originally Posted by RyanBDawg View Post
That is my point... Humans have been using drugs and getting high since day one.. A government starting a "war" to attempt to get rid of this has been a 40 plus year running joke that has cost hundreds of billions and only made drug abuse and associated problems much, much worse..

If you want to get rid of drug use, then the only way to do that is by unabashed genocide upon the human race, and I don't think the US government is going to to that..
Is the goal of the war to truly eliminate drug use on our Earth? Or simply to keep the numbers of addicts down and keep our society a better place? I made a post about this on the previous page. You can never eliminate all drugs.

When one nutcase goes on a shooting spree, it doesn't mean our laws on guns have failed and we need to make them stricter.

Nothing is ever 100%....People will always abuse drugs. It's always a balancing act between building a better and safer society and personal liberties and freedoms.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:46   #174
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
People still abuse them to get high today....not sure what your point is?
His point is this. For some reason we 'society' think we are 'above' heroin, marijuana, cocaine, or any other drug normally used in the past (for both legitimate and recreational uses), but we are ok with selling alcohol legally and doctors over-prescribe narcotics every single day. Is alcohol a drug ? Yep. Are prescription narcotics a drug? Yep.

How much more hypocritical could we get...I can't really think of anything.

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Old 12-05-2011, 17:49   #175
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Originally Posted by RyanBDawg View Post
That is my point... Humans have been using drugs and getting high since day one.. A government starting a "war" to attempt to get rid of this has been a 40 plus year running joke that has cost hundreds of billions and only made drug abuse and associated problems much, much worse..

If you want to get rid of drug use, then the only way to do that is by unabashed genocide upon the human race, and I don't think the US government is going to do that..

What is worse, selling heroin in the Sears catalog, or having a drug cartel sell it?
I disagree. The majority of current street crime motivation is still money to obtain drugs.

You create more addicts - those addicts still need money to buy their dope. That money comes from you and me, either through our taxes or property crime.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:50   #176
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Originally Posted by holesinpaper View Post
You're stuck in 1977.

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/14...off-drug-trade

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/cms/Forfeiture

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...65073870.html?

2x more statues added in 20 years -- all expanding the government's ability to seize assets. Yeah, great idea that WoD.

I could go on with examples nearly forever.
The statutes and policy I quoted are current, not from 1977. Even the link you provided above indicates that for a forfeiture to occur it has to proven in civil court that there is a nexus between the cash (or property) or proven in criminal court after a conviction. That is not 1977, that is currently the law. I can understand that you do not agree with the law, and I agree that the forfeiture laws have increased dramatically. However as was suggested in the original post that I responded to that the police can just take the money with no due process and keep it without proving a nexus to felonious activity is just not true.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:53   #177
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I disagree. The majority of current street crime motivation is still money to obtain drugs.

You create more addicts - those addicts still need money to buy their dope. That money comes from you and me, either through our taxes or property crime.
The Netherlands has less of a percentage of its citizens using marijuana and even hard drugs than the United States does.. So that proves you wrong.. In fact study after study has proven that attitude wrong..

The legalization, or relaxation of drug laws have in most circumstances reduced crime..

You know what really costs you and I money? The 30,000 per year that it takes to keep a drug offender locked in prison..

It would actually be far cheaper to provide them with free drugs...
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:56   #178
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Alcohol prohibition didn't work and we changed that. We need to do the same with drugs.
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Old 12-05-2011, 17:57   #179
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Originally Posted by Sharky7 View Post
I disagree. The majority of current street crime motivation is still money to obtain drugs.

You create more addicts - those addicts still need money to buy their dope. That money comes from you and me, either through our taxes or property crime.
So, tell me how much of our tax dollars do we get back by paying the salary of millions of narcotics agents, and also incarcerating millions of people for something as stupid as possession w/ intent to distribute marijuana?

I haven't done ANY research at all, and I would bet we get back about 5-10% of what we spend. And people wonder why we are trillions of dollars in debt? Because we're dumbasses, that's why.

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Old 12-05-2011, 17:59   #180
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Originally Posted by RyanBDawg View Post
The Netherlands has less of a percentage of its citizens using marijuana and even hard drugs than the United States does.. So that proves you wrong.. In fact study after study has proven that attitude wrong..

The legislation, or relaxation of drug laws have in most circumstances reduced crime..
My facts are not "wrong." I work as a police officer in the Chicago area. We have done year after year study on our crime motivations to help combat our street crimes. Every year, "money to obtain drugs" is the motivation over 90% for all our categories.

Very few people will end up as prostitutes without a bad addiction. I talk hours on end with these people and hear their stories. I have NEVER arrested a prostitute without a drug problem.

Home invasions, vehicle burglaries, home burglaries, retail thefts etc. Mostly obtaining property to then pawn/resell/black market to then get money to buy their dope.
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