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Old 12-25-2011, 16:39   #41
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Originally Posted by CW Mock View Post
ASP is a less than worthless piece of *** that's been marketed really well. I hate mine. Give me a straight stick or PR-24 any day.
Yeah, I hear you.
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Old 12-25-2011, 20:38   #42
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Is there a general consensus that the Espantoon may be the gold of twirlers?

I worked in Maryland in the '80s. There were two guys who could truly snap a baton. I was always in awe when I watched them. One of the guys was a tapper. He could really make that stick keep a beat. Neither were 'Baldimer' officers but, both of them spun the Espantoon IIRC.

I'm an old dawg, and I'd love to learn this old trick.
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Last edited by Truckee; 12-25-2011 at 20:50.. Reason: typo
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Old 12-25-2011, 21:53   #43
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When I first came on, we had a choice between a 26 inch hickory straight stick and this bizzare hook looking thing called a handler 12. It was a leverage tool which was used to hook limbs and twist them up.

I only ever saw 3 people carry the handler 12, and one was the defensive tactics instructor. He used it to abuse cadets several hours a day (or so it seemed) and could quickly reduce a grown man to tears. for everyone else it was too complex.

After a few years, the ASP was approved, and eventually, the straight stick was grandfathered in for folks who were taugh it in the academy. Now our recerts are only done with the expandables.

We just had the Peacekeeper systems Rapid Containment Baton approved. It appears to be a tremendous improvement over the ASP.
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Old 12-25-2011, 23:20   #44
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Originally Posted by Truckee View Post
Is there a general consensus that the Espantoon may be the gold of twirlers?

I worked in Maryland in the '80s. There were two guys who could truly snap a baton. I was always in awe when I watched them. One of the guys was a tapper. He could really make that stick keep a beat. Neither were 'Baldimer' officers but, both of them spun the Espantoon IIRC.

I'm an old dawg, and I'd love to learn this old trick.
When I came on in Baltimore in 1975, pretty much everyone twirled the espantoon. As mentioned earlier, the swivel on the strap makes it work best. After a few hard encounters with my shins, spinning the stick became second nature. I'll dig it out and practice a little bit. I'll further stretch my skills and try and post a short video on Youtube. I'll check back when I get it done.
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Old 12-25-2011, 23:25   #45
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRl1TqSLpFU

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Old 12-26-2011, 01:18   #46
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I carry a 29-30" dymondwood ebony straight stick. Usually anytime I am out of the car except lunch and traffic stops.

It has quite an effect on people, usually before it gets taken out of the ring.

Hey Snowman, ever heard of Manny Mauri with Denver PD. He was one of our local stick makers. My wife's pop is a retired Denver detective. He carried his fathers (an old Denver Sheriff) sap and an axe handle. My wife has that sap now. It is old and cracked and has blood and hair on it.

We have his patrol riot gun, a Westernfield (Monkey Wards) M500a 12GA cut down to 18". It is one of my home defense guns.

Classic police equipment.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:14   #47
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Let's see...

Started in the academy with a plastic PR-24, everyone else used an aluminum PR-24. It was considered new-fangled back then. Some guys were still only authorized for the straight stick and had to carry those in the academy. (It was a regional academy with various agencies in attendance)

Used the plastic PR-24 for a while, served me pretty well. Never had to fight with it. Everytime it cleared the ring, the criminals decided to back down. In that respect, it works almost as well as racking a 12 gauge!

Went to the expandable PR-24 after a while because I got lazy and started leaving the regular stick in the car, so I figured this way, I will always have the stick on me.

Then went to the ASP in the late 90's. Thought it was cool, light, compact. Then started hearing from my coworkers how the ASP has failed them in actual fights, usually by collapsing after a solid hit or just not having any effect on someone.

Went back carrying a 26" hardwood straight stick. LAPD style. Rubber grommet. Black paint. Then to the PR-24 expandable again, then back to a 29" Dymondwood stick, which really intimidated everyone because it was long and slim and finished in a natural wood color. That stick got everyone talking about the cop with the "big whacking stick", so I went back to my 26" hardwood straight stick in black.

I had a pair of SAP gloves back in the day... can't find them for the life of me. Would love to get my hands on a real Espantoon and a 8 oz. blackjack or something.
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Last edited by lawman800; 12-26-2011 at 03:14..
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:08   #48
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Originally Posted by unit 900 View Post
When I came on in Baltimore in 1975, pretty much everyone twirled the espantoon. As mentioned earlier, the swivel on the strap makes it work best. After a few hard encounters with my shins, spinning the stick became second nature. I'll dig it out and practice a little bit. I'll further stretch my skills and try and post a short video on Youtube. I'll check back when I get it done.
900,
that would be cool as snizzle of you! Please, if you're going to all the trouble to post a vid, offer the basic twirling instructions.

I don't walk a beat anymore. However, for some reason, I have a real hankerin' for learning this art. Tradition maybe?

TBO,
Thanks for the utube posts. I've seen those before, pretty neat. I am surprised that they are the only two vids I've been able to find on the subject.

Tis sort of ironic that this thread has popped up. A couple of weeks past, I went looking for vids on twirling. I was disappointed that there are none to be had. I thought that, at least, Bumper Morgan's rapping scene would be somewhere... but, to no avail.
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Last edited by Truckee; 12-26-2011 at 08:09..
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:21   #49
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I would love to see some videos on how to twirl a nightstick.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:30   #50
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Bumper Morgan thought a rubber grommet on a night stick was heresy.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:39   #51
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Bumper Morgan thought a rubber grommet on a night stick was heresy.
It would be a lot worse for me to not have a grommet and have my nightstick keep falling through the ring everytime I try to holster it on my belt. Imagine how silly that would look and I would never be able to get out on the streets to work!

But the stick would get a lot of dings and dents and I can make up stories about it.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:47   #52
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I would love to be able to carry a straight stick or an Espantoon. The problem is that I was trained on the ASP and there's no place to get training on any other kind of impact weapon.
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Old 12-26-2011, 08:52   #53
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Quote:
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It would be a lot worse for me to not have a grommet and have my nightstick keep falling through the ring everytime I try to holster it on my belt. Imagine how silly that would look and I would never be able to get out on the streets to work!

But the stick would get a lot of dings and dents and I can make up stories about it.
Yeah, I guess the old school sticks were held on the belts somehow by the leather thong. Maybe Snowman can articulate..

Anyhow, what would Bumper think of the PR-24? Heresy..
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:03   #54
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We were issued nightsticks, but used Maglights in the field. Then, we went to ASP batons. I like them for knocking on doors from the side and breaking out windows.

IMHO- pepper spray and tasers have saved many, many lives, but idiot progressives have no idea what they are talking about. If they take the taser and pepper spray away, you will have a lot more people injured and killed, while violently resisting arrest.

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Old 12-26-2011, 09:12   #55
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Another great old school thread!

Here in southern WV it was common for coppers and especially WVSP Troopers to carry short, 12"-14" pieces of roughly 1" diameter high voltage cable. (obtained from mines which were and still are everywhere around here) Typical usage was to render resisting suspect unconscious with a whack across the melon. Apparently, the heft and slight flexibility made the rubber covered copper cable quite effective...

My grandfather (now 81) said he liked to carry his tucked into his gunbelt behind the buckle and that a short light strike to the pressure point on the upper lip just under the nose was quite effective at gaining people's cooperation.

WVSP still isues an old school straight stick that has more in common with a fungo bat than a baton. Interestingly, it comes along with the cars and isn't issued along with the rest of the equipment. Asps are now carried on the belt and IMO, their effectiveness is questionable compared to old hickory.
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Old 12-26-2011, 09:42   #56
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I would love to be able to carry a straight stick or an Espantoon. The problem is that I was trained on the ASP and there's no place to get training on any other kind of impact weapon.
I guess there's something I'm missing, which shows you why they never made me the chief. An ASP, or any other expandible, is simply a straight nightstick that telescopes inward allowing it to take up less room when carried on the gunbelt. True...?

You use the same striking techniques and come-alongs with a deployed expandible that you would with a straight nightstick. If anything a straight stick would be less complicated than an expandible because it doesn't require messing with getting a good friction-lock on the expandible's joints so it won't collapse when you do the El-Kabong on somebody.

At least that was the administration's point of view hereabouts, even with the state POST committee. A PR-24 or expandible required extra training. You could park either one and default to a straight nightstick whenever you chose to.

Last edited by Snowman92D; 12-26-2011 at 09:43..
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:15   #57
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While I dont agree with everything that my admin does, they have the opinion that if you are authorized and trained on an ASP, you can carry a straight stick. They are talking abotu authorizing the PR-24 with the training.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:31   #58
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Originally Posted by Snowman92D View Post
I guess there's something I'm missing, which shows you why they never made me the chief. An ASP, or any other expandible, is simply a straight nightstick that telescopes inward allowing it to take up less room when carried on the gunbelt. True...?

You use the same striking techniques and come-alongs with a deployed expandible that you would with a straight nightstick. If anything a straight stick would be less complicated than an expandible because it doesn't require messing with getting a good friction-lock on the expandible's joints so it won't collapse when you do the El-Kabong on somebody.

At least that was the administration's point of view hereabouts, even with the state POST committee. A PR-24 or expandible required extra training. You could park either one and default to a straight nightstick whenever you chose to.
This is not actually true.... I was trained in both the ASP and back in the day, straight sticks. The straight stick is much, much more than just a swinging impact device. Properly deployed you can use a straight stick to jab from either end. The ASP on the other hand is more or less just a swinging impact device. There is really not enough diameter to get a good enough grip for a good jab, and also it could collapse on itself if you jab hard enough.
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Old 12-26-2011, 10:51   #59
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Okay, thanks. Like I said, I wasn't sure why anyone would feel there was a difference. We didn't use the ASP expandibles here. The friction-lock joints fatigued and failed in academy testing a lot sooner on the ASP batons compared to the Monadnock version, so we went with the Monadnock expandibles. During expandible training we had the trainees do full-power jabs into padded kicking bags. The idea was to show them they had to conclusively snap the expandible out into fully-locked extension when they deployed it, or the friction-locking would fail when using it. Doing a jab into a kicking bag was a good way to "prove" you had the lock-out technique down. For my money, an expandible was a lot more trouble than it was worth. YMMV.

Last edited by Snowman92D; 12-26-2011 at 10:54..
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Old 12-26-2011, 11:34   #60
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Would love to get my hands on a real Espantoon and a 8 oz. blackjack or something.
I got my first espantoon from old "Nightstick Joe" Hlafka on Baltimore PD. Joe's getting up in years now, and I heard he has moved out of state to live with his daughter. But you can google his name and read up on him. I got another espantoon from an active duty Baltimore copper, I'll PM you with his e-mail address. The guy at copstix.com makes a really good espantoon, too, from what everyone says.

I dunno who makes saps or slappers nowadays. Like a lot of the guys here, I wish now I still had mine.

Here's a link to a story on "Nightstick Joe". Some interesting comments on the article.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news...espantoon.html

Last edited by Snowman92D; 12-26-2011 at 12:12..
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