GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-26-2011, 07:39   #51
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4949shooter View Post
Bumper Morgan thought a rubber grommet on a night stick was heresy.
It would be a lot worse for me to not have a grommet and have my nightstick keep falling through the ring everytime I try to holster it on my belt. Imagine how silly that would look and I would never be able to get out on the streets to work!

But the stick would get a lot of dings and dents and I can make up stories about it.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 07:47   #52
ditchdoc24
Senior Member
 
ditchdoc24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 650
I would love to be able to carry a straight stick or an Espantoon. The problem is that I was trained on the ASP and there's no place to get training on any other kind of impact weapon.
ditchdoc24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 07:52   #53
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,800


Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
It would be a lot worse for me to not have a grommet and have my nightstick keep falling through the ring everytime I try to holster it on my belt. Imagine how silly that would look and I would never be able to get out on the streets to work!

But the stick would get a lot of dings and dents and I can make up stories about it.
Yeah, I guess the old school sticks were held on the belts somehow by the leather thong. Maybe Snowman can articulate..

Anyhow, what would Bumper think of the PR-24? Heresy..
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 08:03   #54
DonGlock26
Senior Member
 
DonGlock26's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 106,257
We were issued nightsticks, but used Maglights in the field. Then, we went to ASP batons. I like them for knocking on doors from the side and breaking out windows.

IMHO- pepper spray and tasers have saved many, many lives, but idiot progressives have no idea what they are talking about. If they take the taser and pepper spray away, you will have a lot more people injured and killed, while violently resisting arrest.

_
__________________
“Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn't even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.”

Last edited by DonGlock26; 12-26-2011 at 08:05..
DonGlock26 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 08:12   #55
Agent6-3/8
Senior Member
 
Agent6-3/8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: The ramparts of civilization
Posts: 11,472
Another great old school thread!

Here in southern WV it was common for coppers and especially WVSP Troopers to carry short, 12"-14" pieces of roughly 1" diameter high voltage cable. (obtained from mines which were and still are everywhere around here) Typical usage was to render resisting suspect unconscious with a whack across the melon. Apparently, the heft and slight flexibility made the rubber covered copper cable quite effective...

My grandfather (now 81) said he liked to carry his tucked into his gunbelt behind the buckle and that a short light strike to the pressure point on the upper lip just under the nose was quite effective at gaining people's cooperation.

WVSP still isues an old school straight stick that has more in common with a fungo bat than a baton. Interestingly, it comes along with the cars and isn't issued along with the rest of the equipment. Asps are now carried on the belt and IMO, their effectiveness is questionable compared to old hickory.
__________________
"The mountains are calling and I must go." -John Muir
Agent6-3/8 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 08:42   #56
Snowman92D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 4,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by ditchdoc24 View Post
I would love to be able to carry a straight stick or an Espantoon. The problem is that I was trained on the ASP and there's no place to get training on any other kind of impact weapon.
I guess there's something I'm missing, which shows you why they never made me the chief. An ASP, or any other expandible, is simply a straight nightstick that telescopes inward allowing it to take up less room when carried on the gunbelt. True...?

You use the same striking techniques and come-alongs with a deployed expandible that you would with a straight nightstick. If anything a straight stick would be less complicated than an expandible because it doesn't require messing with getting a good friction-lock on the expandible's joints so it won't collapse when you do the El-Kabong on somebody.

At least that was the administration's point of view hereabouts, even with the state POST committee. A PR-24 or expandible required extra training. You could park either one and default to a straight nightstick whenever you chose to.

Last edited by Snowman92D; 12-26-2011 at 08:43..
Snowman92D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 09:15   #57
Kahr_Glockman
Senior Member
 
Kahr_Glockman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,684
Blog Entries: 1
While I dont agree with everything that my admin does, they have the opinion that if you are authorized and trained on an ASP, you can carry a straight stick. They are talking abotu authorizing the PR-24 with the training.
__________________
Quote:
Sam Spade
You want to discuss things, or do you want to act like a Democrat and argue by soundbite?
Quote:
Roering
Trying to fight the police off is one thing. Trying to do it while naked takes real commitment.
Kahr_Glockman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 09:31   #58
SAR
CLM Number
Charter Lifetime Member
 
SAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: LA LA Land
Posts: 2,406
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman92D View Post
I guess there's something I'm missing, which shows you why they never made me the chief. An ASP, or any other expandible, is simply a straight nightstick that telescopes inward allowing it to take up less room when carried on the gunbelt. True...?

You use the same striking techniques and come-alongs with a deployed expandible that you would with a straight nightstick. If anything a straight stick would be less complicated than an expandible because it doesn't require messing with getting a good friction-lock on the expandible's joints so it won't collapse when you do the El-Kabong on somebody.

At least that was the administration's point of view hereabouts, even with the state POST committee. A PR-24 or expandible required extra training. You could park either one and default to a straight nightstick whenever you chose to.
This is not actually true.... I was trained in both the ASP and back in the day, straight sticks. The straight stick is much, much more than just a swinging impact device. Properly deployed you can use a straight stick to jab from either end. The ASP on the other hand is more or less just a swinging impact device. There is really not enough diameter to get a good enough grip for a good jab, and also it could collapse on itself if you jab hard enough.
__________________
Death is lighter than a feather, while duty is heavier than a mountain.
SAR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 09:51   #59
Snowman92D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 4,342
Okay, thanks. Like I said, I wasn't sure why anyone would feel there was a difference. We didn't use the ASP expandibles here. The friction-lock joints fatigued and failed in academy testing a lot sooner on the ASP batons compared to the Monadnock version, so we went with the Monadnock expandibles. During expandible training we had the trainees do full-power jabs into padded kicking bags. The idea was to show them they had to conclusively snap the expandible out into fully-locked extension when they deployed it, or the friction-locking would fail when using it. Doing a jab into a kicking bag was a good way to "prove" you had the lock-out technique down. For my money, an expandible was a lot more trouble than it was worth. YMMV.

Last edited by Snowman92D; 12-26-2011 at 09:54..
Snowman92D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 10:34   #60
Snowman92D
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 4,342
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
Would love to get my hands on a real Espantoon and a 8 oz. blackjack or something.
I got my first espantoon from old "Nightstick Joe" Hlafka on Baltimore PD. Joe's getting up in years now, and I heard he has moved out of state to live with his daughter. But you can google his name and read up on him. I got another espantoon from an active duty Baltimore copper, I'll PM you with his e-mail address. The guy at copstix.com makes a really good espantoon, too, from what everyone says.

I dunno who makes saps or slappers nowadays. Like a lot of the guys here, I wish now I still had mine.

Here's a link to a story on "Nightstick Joe". Some interesting comments on the article.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news...espantoon.html

Last edited by Snowman92D; 12-26-2011 at 11:12..
Snowman92D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 11:09   #61
OXCOPS
Senior Member
 
OXCOPS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: AZ
Posts: 44,106
Without naming names or agencies, I grew up knowing some rural old school guys that kept aluminium t-ball bats in their cars. Said the knob at the end helped with control.
OXCOPS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 11:10   #62
Truckee
Aging Goat
 
Truckee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 1,313
No experience with these guys but, they claim to know the baton.
http://www.eliteespantoons.com/
I'd pay $60 if someone would teach me the moves!
__________________
Check your feelings at the door, we have a job to do
Truckee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 11:21   #63
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
I'm buying one and if you see me all bruised up, you'll know I've been practicing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 12:14   #64
ateamer
NRA4EVR
 
ateamer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: In the hallway - it's on cuz!
Posts: 14,611
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAR View Post
This is not actually true.... I was trained in both the ASP and back in the day, straight sticks. The straight stick is much, much more than just a swinging impact device. Properly deployed you can use a straight stick to jab from either end. The ASP on the other hand is more or less just a swinging impact device. There is really not enough diameter to get a good enough grip for a good jab, and also it could collapse on itself if you jab hard enough.
The only thing I liked about Koga defensive tactics was most of the baton techniques. (The two-count modified, though, is great in theory, lousy in practice.) Jabs and thrusts can be very effective. The Winchester expandable can be used for jabs without collapsing, and it also has most of its weight in the top half so it hits like it should when swung. It's also quite a bit larger in diameter than the ASP so there is plenty to grip.
__________________
Firearms instructor/Glock armorer
Airplane pilot - Commercial/Instrument rating
49er Faithful
Know-it-all
ateamer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 13:21   #65
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Just went to the uniform shop, asked for a leather strap for my straight stick, she have me a baton holder for my belt. I explained what I wad looking for, she said she never heard of it and it "must be some old school thing".

Oh well....
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 15:19   #66
Magicmanmb
Senior Member
 
Magicmanmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Coastal, SC area
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by IGotIt View Post
Some of you might remember blackjacks. 2 1/2 lbs of lead on a short length of spring steel, wrapped in black leather. Most of the time used to bang on the traffic signal box to get the traffic lights unstuck, but occasionally used for the intended purpose.
Still grandfathered to carry. As long as my chief keeps his Uncle's in his pocket my Fathers will be with me. Still love TSA making me check My kubaton but the pistol on my hip was O.K. since I was transporting a prisoner.
Magicmanmb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 15:27   #67
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magicmanmb View Post
Still grandfathered to carry. As long as my chief keeps his Uncle's in his pocket my Fathers will be with me. Still love TSA making me check My kubaton but the pistol on my hip was O.K. since I was transporting a prisoner.
That is about as smart as what I saw at amusement parks where they let the off duty leo in with his sidearm without batting an eye, but they turn the wife's purse inside out and go through the baby stroller with a fine tooth comb.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 15:42   #68
Magicmanmb
Senior Member
 
Magicmanmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Coastal, SC area
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowman92D View Post
I got my first espantoon from old "Nightstick Joe" Hlafka on Baltimore PD. Joe's getting up in years now, and I heard he has moved out of state to live with his daughter. But you can google his name and read up on him. I got another espantoon from an active duty Baltimore copper, I'll PM you with his e-mail address. The guy at copstix.com makes a really good espantoon, too, from what everyone says.

I dunno who makes saps or slappers nowadays. Like a lot of the guys here, I wish now I still had mine.

Here's a link to a story on "Nightstick Joe". Some interesting comments on the article.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news...espantoon.html


The Texas slappers and the old style lead billy can be found at bud k knives. locally we have several stores that sell them. SC Felony to posess but legal to sell. Yes it is stupid the way it's worded put I have gone over it several times with the solicitor, no straight answer from a politician.
Magicmanmb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 15:44   #69
Magicmanmb
Senior Member
 
Magicmanmb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Coastal, SC area
Posts: 4,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
That is about as smart as what I saw at amusement parks where they let the off duty leo in with his sidearm without batting an eye, but they turn the wife's purse inside out and go through the baby stroller with a fine tooth comb.
Remember dealing with the US Government and it's collective smarts (or lack of).
Magicmanmb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2011, 22:53   #70
Sniff
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Posts: 340
In 1998 we were issued the old wooden baton which was carried in a special pocket in the trousers. The thong was tucked under the trouser belt so you could find it in a hurry.

The most recent ones were made from Jarra, an Australian hardwood.

I never used mine on anyone.

We were also trained on and issued the side handled baton. There were different suppliers over the years. Mine is aluminium with a wooden core.

They are known to some real old timers as the 'Minto Bar' after John Minto, an activist who lead protests against the 1981 South African rugby tour of New Zealand. The protest riots during the tour were the first time the PR-24s were widely used in NZ.

I wacked, jabbed and swung at a few bad guys with mine.

Around 2000, were were issued 21inch ASPs. We had to return BOTH the woody and the side handle to be issued an ASP. No option to keep them, we had to carry the ASP.

The side handles were kept in the stations for emergency use and only the Team Policing Units carried them.

I quite like the ASP. It's always on my belt and I've found it effective when needed.

The one that got the most use though was the three D cell Mag-lite. Always seemed to be in your hand when you needed it. The defensive tactics manual said we were supposed to drop the Mag-lite and draw a baton if we needed to strike someone.

I don't think even the guy who wrote the manual ever believed that was going to happen.

My one is the same one I've had for almost 14 years and it has great sentimental value to me. I'd be gutted if I lost it.


Cop Talk


Sniff
Sniff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2011, 02:08   #71
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 12,800


That wooden club made of Australian hardwood looks like it would do a number on someone.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2011, 06:30   #72
Truckee
Aging Goat
 
Truckee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Shenandoah Valley
Posts: 1,313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniff View Post
Around 2000, were were issued 21inch ASPs.

The one that got the most use though was the three D cell Mag-lite. Always seemed to be in your hand when you needed it. The defensive tactics manual said we were supposed to drop the Mag-lite and draw a baton if we needed to strike someone. Sniff
OT but, this has turned into a nostalgia thread. Two quick stories.

I also was issued a 21" ASP. I found it too short when compared to the 26". However, I did like that the 21" would hide down into my back pocket as I did a lot of plain clothes stuff. That said, I never put it onto anyone.

Back in the day, had a partner strike a guy behind his left ear with a four-D cell Mag-lite. He was going for a forearm strike, when the Mook bent down and forward in the scuffle. Needless to mention, perp's punkin' was a mess!

Went to court and the Perp was cryin' police brutality. We gave our rebuttal. The Judge peered over his glasses and solemnly asked my partner, "Officer, are you issued a nightstick?" "Yes, your Honor." "Then I suggest that you use it next time." Everyone but the Moolie thought that funny.
__________________
Check your feelings at the door, we have a job to do

Last edited by Truckee; 12-27-2011 at 06:34..
Truckee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-27-2011, 17:27   #73
Kadetklapp
Methberry PD
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,603
I've got my dad's Monadnock PR-24 (aluminum) in a box in the closet with his old leather and other stuff of yore.

At my sixth birthday party (I remember this clearly) my grandparents had given me a pinata. My dad hung it in the tree in the backyard and me and my friends all tried going to town on it with a plastic wiffle bat...but, being six and blindfolded none of use could hit it or if we did, the wiffle bat was not enough to open it up. It got dark so dad flicked on the Unity spotlight on his '86 CVPI and shined the donkey pinata for us and handed me his PR-24. Blindfold off, I could get some hits in, but this donkey wasn't giving it up. Finally, we stood on the porch while my dad went 10-96 on it with the old splitter. He rarely carried it. Usually it was between the driver's door and the seat of the squad car.
Kadetklapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2011, 00:34   #74
lawman800
Juris Glocktor
 
lawman800's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Out the frying pan & into the fire!
Posts: 37,304
Blog Entries: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kadetklapp View Post
I've got my dad's Monadnock PR-24 (aluminum) in a box in the closet with his old leather and other stuff of yore.

At my sixth birthday party (I remember this clearly) my grandparents had given me a pinata. My dad hung it in the tree in the backyard and me and my friends all tried going to town on it with a plastic wiffle bat...but, being six and blindfolded none of use could hit it or if we did, the wiffle bat was not enough to open it up. It got dark so dad flicked on the Unity spotlight on his '86 CVPI and shined the donkey pinata for us and handed me his PR-24. Blindfold off, I could get some hits in, but this donkey wasn't giving it up. Finally, we stood on the porch while my dad went 10-96 on it with the old splitter. He rarely carried it. Usually it was between the driver's door and the seat of the squad car.
Yeah, I've been known to whip out the old PR-24 that I have when a pinata is stubborn.

A good whack or two usually does it... the kids cheer and the adults are left in shock... maybe I need to stop yelling, "STAY DOWN!" while I whack it?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiron:
I've said it before and I'll say it here: they'd look better with lividity.
lawman800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-28-2011, 06:53   #75
Kadetklapp
Methberry PD
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 6,603
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawman800 View Post
maybe I need to stop yelling, "STAY DOWN!" while I whack it?
Cop Talk
Kadetklapp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:12.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 754
184 Members
570 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42