Glock smiles with Underwood??

Hawkeye shooter · 12-27-2011, 06:11

I took my 20SF out to the range for a little fun yesterday. I fired three different rounds. Privi Partisan 180 HP's, Underwood 135 Noslers, and Underwood 165 grn HP's. All shot well, (PPU's are weak!) but I had one jam with the 165 Underwood's. I also noticed the famous Glock Smile on the 165's. My question is, can the cases with the smiles be safely reloaded? I don't have reloading equipment yet, but I'm saving all of my brass for the future. I also noticed on Underwood's business card that he will reload customer supplied brass. Might have to give that a try...

rcd567 · 12-27-2011, 08:42

Yeah, your going to experience a few smilies with Underwood. His 165 gr. loads are the real deal. And no, they don't reload worth a crap. I ended up getting a Lone Wolf barrel so I can reload my stuff...and in case of a zombie uprising.

MightyTygart · 12-27-2011, 10:07

I've never had a glock smile/ However, I'm confused as to why they wouldn't reload after being resized. Can the glock smile not be pushed out?

blk69stang · 12-27-2011, 10:28

Glock smile *physically* can be removed and reloaded, but it is not worth the risk. That "smile" you see is the manifestation of microscopic shearing of the brass, and it is severely weakened in that area. I suppose you could use it for some very light target loads, but for the cost of brass I say just scrap 'em.

Also, the PPU loads ARE weak. I chrono'd them, and was only getting in the low 900 fps range with them. Weaker than .40 S&W.

_The_Shadow · 12-27-2011, 10:58

Blk69stang wrote:

Quote:

That "smile" you see is the manifestation of microscopic shearing of the brass, and it is severely weakened in that area.

I have to agree, brass will stretch to a point, if the brass has a true "smile" distinct line, I would toss it! If it is a soft rounded belly you would probably be OK.

21Carrier · 12-27-2011, 22:20

Glocksmiled brass is DANGEROUS, and trash. Throw it away. I know it hurts, but do it. It doesn't hurt as bad as the likely KB that will happen when you push that brass again.

inspectorjj · 12-27-2011, 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Carrier

Glocksmiled brass is DANGEROUS, and trash. Throw it away. I know it hurts, but do it. It doesn't hurt as bad as the likely KB that will happen when you push that brass again.

I have to agree with my pal 21Carrier. I don't reload, but, I always shoot hot loads to the point of bulges and smiles most of the time. People don't even chase my brass around the range anymore. I don't shoot a whole lot so when I do, I make it count. If I did reload, I wouldn't keep my brass that I obtained from Underwood. I like having both my hands and my good lookin' mug.

21Carrier · 12-27-2011, 23:29

I should add that BULGES are ok, and will iron out with no problem. Only SMILES will ruin the brass. Every round I've ever fired through my G29 has bulged the brass. That's no problem. Here are some pictures for clarification:

These first two show bulged brass (kind of hard to see) that was from factory American Eagle 180gr FMJ. This is ok:

These next two show actual Glock smiles, that are RUINED brass.
This first picture shows two pieces of smiled brass (on the sides), with two marked rounds in the middle (ignore the middle rounds, the marks on them are from a marker and needle:

The piece on the right was DANGEROUSLY close to causing a KB. This was from a load that had tested safe in my G29's stock 3.78" barrel (135gr Nosler JHP @ 1575fps). When I tested it in my 6" LWD G20LS barrel, I got the following. I thought the "full support" would keep smiles from occurring. It appears my barrel lacks full support. This is proof that a load that's safe with a short barrel is not always safe in a long barrel. These 135gr Nosler JHPs averaged 1800fps flat:

ALL OF THE ABOVE PICTURES WERE EITHER MY HAND LOADS OR FACTORY AMERICAN EAGLE. NONE OF THE ABOVE CAME FROM UNDERWOOD.

**Javelin** · 12-27-2011, 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Carrier

I should add that BULGES are ok, and will iron out with no problem. Only SMILES will ruin the brass. Every round I've ever fired through my G29 has bulged the brass. That's no problem. Here are some pictures for clarification:

These first two show bulged brass (kind of hard to see) that was from factory American Eagle 180gr FMJ. This is ok:

These next two show actual Glock smiles, that are RUINED brass.
This first picture shows two pieces of smiled brass (on the sides), with two marked rounds in the middle (ignore the middle rounds, the marks on them are from a marker and needle:

The piece on the right was DANGEROUSLY close to causing a KB. This was from a load that had tested safe in my G29's stock 3.78" barrel (135gr Nosler JHP @ 1575fps). When I tested it in my 6" LWD G20LS barrel, I got the following. I thought the "full support" would keep smiles from occurring. It appears my barrel lacks full support. These 135gr Nosler JHPs averaged 1800fps flat:

Ok - so is underwoods ammo safe if it is doing that to the rounds?

21Carrier · 12-27-2011, 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javelin

Ok - so is underwoods ammo safe if it is doing that to the rounds?

Those pictures were MY HAND LOADS, NOT Underwood ammo. Many people have shot Underwood ammo safely. Smiles are the first sign of overpressure. I'm not saying they are not safe, but it sounds like they are getting close to the limit. If only a few of the rounds cause smiles, I wouldn't worry about it. If ALL of them show smiles, I would consider an aftermarket barrel, or at least a heavier spring if you're gonna shoot it a lot.

inspectorjj · 12-27-2011, 23:38

So far, I have only shot the 135gr. Noslers @ 1600 fps. I have gotten bulges but no smiles out of my Glock factory barrel. I feel very comfortable shooting these from Underwood. I can't speak for the other bullet weights.

21Carrier · 12-28-2011, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by inspectorjj

So far, I have only shot the 135gr. Noslers @ 1600 fps. I have gotten bulges but no smiles out of my Glock factory barrel. I feel very comfortable shooting these from Underwood. I can't speak for the other bullet weights.

That's good to hear. I should also say that I've never shot Underwood ammo, so I was just talking about Glocksmiles in general. I have nothing worthwhile to add to the experience with Underwood ammo. I can't say one way or the other if it's safe or not. However, I'm guessing it's good-to-go. I've never heard of anyone having problems, and a LOT of people around here shoot it pretty regularly.

CDW4ME · 12-28-2011, 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Carrier

I should add that BULGES are ok, and will iron out with no problem. Only SMILES will ruin the brass. Every round I've ever fired through my G29 has bulged the brass. That's no problem. Here are some pictures for clarification:

These first two show bulged brass (kind of hard to see) that was from factory American Eagle 180gr FMJ. This is ok:

That is almost exactly how my recovered brass using the factory Hornady 155 gr. XTP and my handloads with same bullet looks.

arushus · 12-28-2011, 09:35

Ive got quite a bit of brass that has smiles that are just barely visible, Ive tried taking pics with my 4mp phone camera, but you cant see them in the pics. I just wish I knew if they were safe to reload or not...nearly every round I shoot out of my stock barrel has the smile imprints on them. Even winchester and hornady factory rounds have them. I sure hope theyre ok, otherwise Im gonna have to go back through the fivehundred rounds of brass I have saved up and seperate the good from bad, that would suck.

Is there any definitive way to tell while youre reloading? Like say if theyre smiled badly enough not to reload, when you resize them they just collapse and wont go through the sizing die?

rcd567 · 12-28-2011, 09:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Carrier

Glocksmiled brass is DANGEROUS, and trash. Throw it away. I know it hurts, but do it. It doesn't hurt as bad as the likely KB that will happen when you push that brass again.

This^ He speaks the truth.

_The_Shadow · 12-28-2011, 09:49

arushus, the brass metal is malleable to a point, being over worked to the point of shear and the molecules are not going to pressed back into a useable position...it would have to go back to a molten state then stamped forged back to proper shape.

Annealing is a process used to soften brass that is work hardened, which is what happens if you resize it many times. This reduces the malleable properties and stress will cause it to fracture.

4949shooter · 12-28-2011, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDW4ME

That is almost exactly how my recovered brass using the factory Hornady 155 gr. XTP and my handloads with same bullet looks.

Federal 180 on the left, Hornady 180 XTP on the right:

ruger rcm · 12-28-2011, 15:37

Good info in this thread!

Taterhead · 12-28-2011, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by arushus

Ive got quite a bit of brass that has smiles that are just barely visible, Ive tried taking pics with my 4mp phone camera, but you cant see them in the pics. I just wish I knew if they were safe to reload or not...nearly every round I shoot out of my stock barrel has the smile imprints on them. Even winchester and hornady factory rounds have them. I sure hope theyre ok, otherwise Im gonna have to go back through the fivehundred rounds of brass I have saved up and seperate the good from bad, that would suck.

Is there any definitive way to tell while youre reloading? Like say if theyre smiled badly enough not to reload, when you resize them they just collapse and wont go through the sizing die?

If the smile creates a ridge at all, no go for re-loading. I did run a couple of smiled brass through my re-sizer for the heck of it. I will do my best to explain. It looked as if someone had taken a putty knife and smooshed the bulge from smile to head. It left a really shiny bit of brass close to the head with a tiny ribbon of brass that looked like the edge of drywall plaster that wasn't smoothed to the edge. The resizer had clearly displaced material at the location of the smile and pushed it down toward the head. You could flake it off with little difficulty.

I might have an unusual G20 because smiles have been mostly non-existent. That being said, 100% of my hotter loads get a quick scan for smiles before re-sizing. I don't want to miss something that might otherwise get covered up in re-sizing.

Burien · 12-28-2011, 23:15

Since we are sharing smiles...

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1332131

21Carrier · 12-28-2011, 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by arushus

Ive got quite a bit of brass that has smiles that are just barely visible, Ive tried taking pics with my 4mp phone camera, but you cant see them in the pics. I just wish I knew if they were safe to reload or not...nearly every round I shoot out of my stock barrel has the smile imprints on them. Even winchester and hornady factory rounds have them. I sure hope theyre ok, otherwise Im gonna have to go back through the fivehundred rounds of brass I have saved up and seperate the good from bad, that would suck.

Is there any definitive way to tell while youre reloading? Like say if theyre smiled badly enough not to reload, when you resize them they just collapse and wont go through the sizing die?

I would say that if you can FEEL them, toss them. My 6" LWD barrel is bad about leaving a mark on the brass that LOOKS like a Glocksmile. Sometimes, I think there's a smile, but it's just a line from the sharp edge of the barrel.

**Javelin** · 12-29-2011, 00:14

This whole smilie thing is new to me. I would be scared to shoot any round that will deform the casing like that.... or should I just not care? Kabooms are kind of a real thing with Glocks so ....

21Carrier · 12-29-2011, 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Javelin

This whole smilie thing is new to me. I would be scared to shoot any round that will deform the casing like that.... or should I just not care? Kabooms are kind of a real thing with Glocks so ....

It's definitely something to worry about. I don't want to tell someone what to do, but I sure know that when I see Glocksmiles with my handloads (rare), I don't shoot that load in that gun again. I back down the load until smiles stop. Like I said before, if you're seeing one or two per box, that's one thing. But if you're seeing smiles on every case, it's a when thing, not an if. It's just a matter of time until you get that bad piece of brass.

CDW4ME · 12-29-2011, 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4949shooter

Federal 180 on the left, Hornady 180 XTP on the right:

My recovered brass always looks like the one on the right, the one on the left looks to have slightly more buldge, but could be identical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 21Carrier

I would say that if you can FEEL them, toss them.

I'm not planning to reload the once fired brass for my own use; I'm not wanting to take chances with the stock barrel. Given my brass looks like photo above and is once fired would it be ethical (OK) to sell as once fired brass? Or best to just toss it?

TRaGiK · 12-29-2011, 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDW4ME

I'm not planning to reload the once fired brass for my own use; I'm not wanting to take chances with the stock barrel. Given my brass looks like photo above and is once fired would it be ethical (OK) to sell as once fired brass? Or best to just toss it?

Send it all to me and I'll dispose of it properly.

Seriously, bulge = fine.

Smiley = trash.

Simple as that.