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Old 06-23-2012, 20:12   #176
bac1023
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Originally Posted by Bullman View Post
I think it would be nice if VLTOR could finally make the Bren Ten happen again, but it appears to be vapor ware.
I'm not holding my breath.
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Old 06-23-2012, 20:42   #177
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Don't yell at here, but these gelatin tests show the 10mm not being that much better then a .45 acp. Could this be why the 10mm isn't popular? All that additional recoil and muzzle blast for little performance increase? Yes, I understand it's only 1 load.
.45 acp http://brassfetcher.com/FlyingAshtray.html
10mm http://brassfetcher.com/10mmAuto180grRemJHP.html
A 10mm is slightly stronger than a 357 magnum. That is a fact! I can make a gelatin test show anything that I want. The reason that most LEA's, including the FBI quit using the 10mm and 357 mag is because not all of their people could handle them. That and a little worry about over penetration. It is a powerful round and a lot of people have graduated to using them as a hunting round.
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Old 06-23-2012, 20:51   #178
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I would like to see a ruger redhawk in 10mm with 4 5/8 barrel .... sweet!!!!!....Ok i would settle for the 5.5 or 6 inch barrel...LOL

I can't seem to find a redhawk in 45 long colt. Anyone???
Didn't look too hard, huh?
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:19   #179
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I think the reason that law enforcement agencies went to lighter rounds is because of the platform change. In the 80s they all started to change over from revolvers to semi autos. At the time of the change the fashonable round to change to was either 9mm or .45. There has and always will be a limited choice of pistols available in 10mm and unless there is a lot of choice it probably isn't going to get picked.

I know in my experience, when the revolver was king, the magnum rounds were chosen because it was what was popular. Also, government is going to be driven by cost too. they aren't going to be to keen to shell out a lot of extra dough for 10mm when 9, 40, and 45 are cheaper. I just don't think it is so much of a recoil issue as it is made out to be.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:38   #180
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M&P with a 6" bbl!
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:43   #181
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M&P with a 6" bbl!
A 5" M&P 10 would be a show stopper. I love my G20 but I just picked up my M&P40/357sig yesterday, wow- just incredible. Love the 10mm round.
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Old 06-24-2012, 10:47   #182
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Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
A 10mm is slightly stronger than a 357 magnum. That is a fact! I can make a gelatin test show anything that I want. The reason that most LEA's, including the FBI quit using the 10mm and 357 mag is because not all of their people could handle them. That and a little worry about over penetration. It is a powerful round and a lot of people have graduated to using them as a hunting round.
I am a huge 10mm fan. You may be under estimating a hand loaded 357 mag. 125 grains spooled up around 1800fps out of a 6" barrel is possible. Almost 900ft/lbs.
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Old 06-24-2012, 12:13   #183
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I am a huge 10mm fan. You may be under estimating a hand loaded 357 mag. 125 grains spooled up around 1800fps out of a 6" barrel is possible. Almost 900ft/lbs.
Lets compare apples to apples, OK? 10mm doesn't even have a round a light as 125 grain. I'm not knocking .357, and I'm not talking about beefing up hand loads, which is a lot harder to do for a pistol than a revolver. Now using the same weight bullets (180 grain), 357mag=1300fps, 10mm=1337fps. That's pretty close to the same with a very slight edge to 10mm. And 10mm is a larger diameter, like .043 larger.

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Old 06-24-2012, 14:12   #184
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I would love to see 10mm ammo at Walmart... lol. I would have to say a 5.25 XDm would be pretty cool in the 10. Also, any M&P would be great. I own a G20 and love the gun, but 10mm ammo is $$ compared to what I usually shoot. I have a 10mm Short conversion barrel (that is a .40 S&W) that I use some. Thinking about ordering a .357 sig barrel as well. Love it or hate it, you gotta respect the 10mm.
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Old 06-24-2012, 14:15   #185
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I am a huge 10mm fan. You may be under estimating a hand loaded 357 mag. 125 grains spooled up around 1800fps out of a 6" barrel is possible. Almost 900ft/lbs.
I have a safe* handload for the 135gr Nosler bullets that averages 1718fps out of an aftermarket 6" bbl. in my G20 That's 885ft-lbs. Others have loaded them hotter than 900ft-lbs. The .357 vs. 10mm ballistics debate is really a tit-for-tat comparison game, IMHO. You have to keep the barrel lengths the same for any comparison. Personally, I don't see enough difference to take either side as being significantly better, though one has a slight edge.

So which gun would I rather carry IWB with the same length barrel, a G20 or G29, or similar barrel length .357 mag. revolver? I'll take one of the (15+1 or 10+1) Glocks, thank you very much! But that's my preference. To each his own.

The 10mm fan base is solid and seems to be growing to me. I base that on how fast they sell what few available new 10mm's are brought to market. The handloading and custom ammo and internet ammo sales hurts the local stores in stocking ammo, since most of those big mfg's water down their loads anyway. Wally world stocks almost nothing (not just gun related) in their stores that doesn't move well. It's a retail model with some merit and seems to keep getting more and more popular in the US. I think it's a mistake to equate that retail model for the assumption that the 10mm guns and ammo don't have a significant market presence. I would love to see how many 10mm's Glock ships a year, and whether that has been trending upwards recently. My guess is that it has been trending up, and fairly significantly.

I have to agree with what has been posted earlier on this thread, though. There isn't a sound business case for gun makers to introduce new 10mm models to cater to what is, in reality at this time, a 10mm niche market. The sad fact is that business decisions are made based on return on investment, and at this point, it's highly questionable whether that's a good bet or not. The consensus amongst gun makers would appear to be "not" at this time.

*Safe in my gun with my handloads. YMMV.
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Old 06-24-2012, 14:22   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldman11 View Post
Lets compare apples to apples, OK? 10mm doesn't even have a round a light as 125 grain. I'm not knocking .357, and I'm not talking about beefing up hand loads, which is a lot harder to do for a pistol than a revolver. Now using the same weight bullets (180 grain), 357mag=1300fps, 10mm=1337fps. That's pretty close to the same with a very slight edge to 10mm. And 10mm is a larger diameter, like .043 larger.

I've got a 180 grain 357 load at 1,400 fps. So its slightly edging that 10mm load. FYI this is not a handload either.

Apples to apples, the 10mm, is generally slightly behind the 357. Now, the advantage is, IMO insignificant in the comparison, as I doubt any animal or human is going to tell the difference. Much like the 10mm is slightly bigger, but again, nothing will ever know the difference.

Yes, in some particular guns, you can load a round hotter and still be safe, but this applies to revolvers as well.
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Old 06-24-2012, 14:43   #187
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[QUOTE=diamondd2;18931530]Well a Gen 4 G20 dosent count because all that is, is a Gen4 G21 with 10mm barrel.

You could not be more wrong! Glock models go in order of Gaston Glocks patent/design order. The 20 came first the design was modified to a 45 acp and became Glocks 21st patent.

Further more the slides are different in weight, g20 is heavier, breach face dimentions are different, extractor is different. Yeah you can run a conversion barrel in a G21 to shoot 10mm with a modified extractor and different mags.

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Old 06-24-2012, 15:31   #188
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[quote=grizman;19125888]
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Well a Gen 4 G20 dosent count because all that is, is a Gen4 G21 with 10mm barrel.

You could not be more wrong! Glock models go in order of Gaston Glocks patent/design order. The 20 came first the design was modified to a 45 acp and became Glocks 21st patent.

Further more the slides are different in weight, g20 is heavier, breach face dimentions are different, extractor is different. Yeah you can run a conversion barrel in a G21 to shoot 10mm with a modified extractor and different mags.
He is right.

I have a Glock 16. That right a Glock 16! it came out before the famous Glock 17 that everyone thinks started it all. Wrong!!!!!

I carry my Glock 16 concealed in my 4X4 truck. You never know when a person may need the use of a Glock.

If I ever get stuck that little shovel will come in handy!
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Old 06-24-2012, 15:47   #189
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I understand what you guys are saying. As I said before I am a 10mm fan, I reload for my G20. I also reload for my GP100 357 mag. Some people are very quick to say that a 10mm is beyond a 357, and thats just not so. When both rounds are handloaded it gets very close. That being said, 15+1 of 10mm in a service size autoloading pistol is IMHO pretty difficult to beat.
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Old 06-24-2012, 16:18   #190
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H&k ! Please
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Old 06-24-2012, 16:48   #191
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A USP in 10mm would be nice.

10mm? I think it is slightly gaining in popularity. This shouldn't be overestimated though. A few guys at work have bought 10mm's. One a blued Delta Elite, another a G20, another a G29, and another plans on buying a 20 and 29. One of our civilian armorers also has a G20SF.

5 years ago you never heard of ANYONE in my LE agency buying a ten, although thankfully they have been on our approved list of off duty calibers/weapons.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:02   #192
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A USP in 10mm would be nice.

10mm? I think it is slightly gaining in popularity. This shouldn't be overestimated though. A few guys at work have bought 10mm's. One a blued Delta Elite, another a G20, another a G29, and another plans on buying a 20 and 29. One of our civilian armorers also has a G20SF.

5 years ago you never heard of ANYONE in my LE agency buying a ten, although thankfully they have been on our approved list of off duty calibers/weapons.
There was a guy named Big Chris on the HK Pro Forum who was converting the USP in .40 into 10MM using STI Magazines that fit the maxwell of the USP. I thought about it, but never did it. He even posted a YouTube video of him shooting one.
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Old 06-25-2012, 10:30   #193
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The 10mm is the parent cartridge of the .40, 357SIG and the 9x25 Dillon. The 10 really changed our perception of the modern service pistol and its limits, by being the first commercially available service auto to combine magnum ballistics with the advantage of the auto. Unfortunately, the cartridge wont gain much ground in popularity until more mfgrs begin to chamber their pre existing, plastic autos in 10mm and without a major overhaul, most of these designs simply wont tolerate a steady diet of Norma spec 10mm. However, I suspect the USP45 and FNP45 would be good candidates .
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Old 06-25-2012, 12:13   #194
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I believe that Bruce Gray converts steel-framed P220 to 10mm as well.
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Old 06-25-2012, 15:18   #195
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There was a guy named Big Chris on the HK Pro Forum who was converting the USP in .40 into 10MM using STI Magazines that fit the maxwell of the USP. I thought about it, but never did it. He even posted a YouTube video of him shooting one.
Interesting..
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Old 06-26-2012, 17:36   #196
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Here's a link to more info and a video. I'm not sure if Big Chris is doing these anymore, but other pistolsmiths might be willing to do the conversion.
http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-handgu...cal-video.html
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Old 06-26-2012, 18:15   #197
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There are some die-hard 10mm fans out there, and I'm not trying to be a wiseguy when I ask this, but what signs tell you that the popularity of that caliber is on the rise?
Because I just bought another Glock 20.
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Old 06-26-2012, 20:41   #198
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Its quite Elementary young man everyone is getting one in fact im looking forward to get a new Gen 4 Glock 20 myself as well.





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Because I just bought another Glock 20.
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Old 06-26-2012, 21:43   #199
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It's because of the link I posted to that kid's 10mm video.

Here is a link to a pretty recent video over at Gun Blast all about 10mm for you guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ClEZPs8os
If the 10mm following is a "cult following," I'm drinking the Kool-Aid (ok, it was actually Flavor-Aid)...

Any time I OWB conceal carry, it's my 29. And if anyone comes out with a quality sub-compact 10mm, it will be my daily carry.
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Old 06-26-2012, 22:05   #200
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you mean 10mm is getting more popular, dang i thought i was being different when i bought a G20sf a week ago. oh well
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