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Old 01-24-2012, 12:32   #1
DonGlock26
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An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

"Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot."

"Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute."

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866


HAJIME!!




A .357Sig barrel for my G-23 is even more tempting........


(apologies, if this has already has been posted. I did search first)


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Last edited by DonGlock26; 01-24-2012 at 12:34..
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:43   #2
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That study is very interesting. I have a copy printed out that I show to students in the CCW courses that my father and I teach when someone says "I wouldnt carry anything less than a .45!". I'm pretty sure all it does is make them mad.
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:51   #3
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Good read..thanks for the link.
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Old 01-24-2012, 13:24   #4
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very good read, thanks.
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Old 01-24-2012, 14:48   #5
xcaliburelite
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Does anyone have any other sites with statistics like the Buckeye site? I enjoy reading stuff like that.
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Old 01-24-2012, 15:28   #6
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Roh oh! Ayoob, Marshall & Sanow was mentioned in the posted article. It's only matter of time before the detractors of these 3 gentlemen arrive to piss on this thread.
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Old 01-24-2012, 17:01   #7
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As a physician, I find these 'debates' interesting if not a waste of mental energy, and just stroking the personal choices. If a bullet does not strike a vital structure, no "stopping" occurs.

If I shoot you in the aorta, heart, brain, spinal cord, carotid artery, liver, pelvic structures, etc...., you are unlikely to survive for long. The more (bigger) holes I put into these structures, while I run, duck and hide, the sooner you will be "stopped". It does not matter what caliber bullet is used: the more/bigger holes through these structures, the faster, and more complete the 'stoppage". If the person being shot at is behind armor shielding (sandbag, armor plate, bullet proof vest, helmet, heavy clothing, leather jacket, car door, bone deflection), then you are unlikely to hit these vital structures.

You can debate caliber all you want... but people expire from .22-.25 bullets, bee stings, and heart attacks.. .. as well as ball peen hammers to the back of the head

The more bullets you carry in your y caliber gun, the more bullets you fire that strike on target, the more likely and the sooner the "stoppage".
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Old 01-24-2012, 17:03   #8
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Several threads debating this pro and con over the last few months. Interesting "study" but I doubt it will change anyone's opinion either way.
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Old 01-24-2012, 19:01   #9
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Some interesting data. I had not seen this one before.
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Old 01-24-2012, 20:38   #10
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This is not "new" and has been posted here at least twice in the last 6 mos.

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Old 01-25-2012, 00:13   #11
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Mindset and Tactics beat Bonded vs Unbonded vs Gold Dot vs HST vs DPX vs .40 v .45 v .357 v 9mm v 10mm v 38 Super, etc. etc. etc.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:29   #12
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This may have been posted before, but it's a good article as well.

http://www.shootingvoodoo.com/index....ounds_and_you/
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:35   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cciman View Post
As a physician, I find these 'debates' interesting if not a waste of mental energy, and just stroking the personal choices. If a bullet does not strike a vital structure, no "stopping" occurs.
Oh, so as a "physician", you're telling us that no person who has ever been shot in a non-vital location has never been "stopped"?

Quote:
If I shoot you in the aorta, heart, brain, spinal cord, carotid artery, liver, pelvic structures, etc...., you are unlikely to survive for long.
Tell that to LAPD Ofc. Stacy Lim who had the bottom of her heart destroyed by a .357 Mag round and was able to return fire and hit and kill her attacker with 5 out of 5 shots (correction: 4 out of 4) from her Beretta 9mm and is still alive to talk about it. But I digress...

This shows the difference between those of us who have had proper formal training and take that training to heart, and those who haven't.

When I carry my firearm for SD, if I'm attacked, I'm not concerning myself about whether or not my bullets ultimately prove fatal to my attacker. My only concern is whether or not those bullets that I use to shoot my attacker in a justified use of lethal force will cause an immediate cessation of his ability to further attack me. If one or two bullets happen to strike non-vital areas of my attacker's body and that attacker immediately falls to the ground and "gives up", then those bullets have done their job. If the attacker ultimately expires in the Waabulance or the ER/OR, that is secondary. My primary concern is to IMMEDIATELY STOP my attacker, not ultimately to KILL him.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:44   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power


Note: My comments pertain to most of the experiments we read on the internet not performed by scientists.

Here is how to perform an experiment.
http://www.experiment-resources.com/...periments.html

Compare how an experiment should be performed and then compare it to the"Look at Handgun Stopping Power" .

After you do the comparison you will see that the "Look at Handgun Stopping Power" is of little value.

Read how the FBI did it.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf


+++++++++++++

I my opinion you choose the right tool for the job - that tool would be different for a foot solider, a police officer and a citizen looking for a EDC.

The criteria for a citizen looking for a EDC would be:

1. Have it with you - what size and weight would likely carry every day
2. Reliable - the gun works when you pull the trigger
3. Accuracy - what gun can you shoot competently
4. Capacity - what is your mininum number of bullets do you want in the gun (consider #1 in that)
5. Caliber

Note that caliber is last - that is because a larger caliber hand gun than you would not regularly carry does you no good if you do not have it with you when you need it.
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Old 01-25-2012, 08:46   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
My primary concern is to IMMEDIATELY STOP my attacker, not ultimately to KILL him.
Well said, Sir!
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:07   #16
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shoot the biggest YOU can conceal and hit with...if 380 then 380...if a 50A.E. well then a 50 A.E.....first rule have a gun, second rule make sure you can shoot it and hit what your aiming at...the rest is a peeing contest.
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:47   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cciman View Post
As a physician, I find these 'debates' interesting if not a waste of mental energy, and just stroking the personal choices. If a bullet does not strike a vital structure, no "stopping" occurs.
I'm a physician also, but I disagree with your assessment. Stopping and killing are two different things, sometimes they both occur, but let's be clear they are different.

You don't necessarily need to hit a vital structure in order to stop an attack, depending on the size/energy of the round, the better chance you have of stopping an attack.

It doesn't take a medical degree to figure that out, in fact during my medical education my pathology professor (also a vietnam vet and I suspect a gun enthusiast) had a whopping 2 powerpoint slides discussing gunshot wounds, one should a very basic mechanism of handgun vs. rifle wounding, and I don't remember having ANY test questions on the subject and it certainly didn't pop up on steps 1, 2 or 3, just saying...
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:50   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Tell that to LAPD Ofc. Stacy Lim who had the bottom of her heart destroyed by a .357 Mag round and was able to return fire and hit and kill her attacker with 5 out of 5 shots from her Beretta 9mm and is still alive to talk about it. But I digress...
Do you have any links to this story? I'd like to read up on the details of this story.
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Old 01-25-2012, 12:58   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dexters View Post

Note that caliber is last - that is because a larger caliber hand gun than you would not regularly carry does you no good if you do not have it with you when you need it.
Jeff Cooper's first rule of gunfighting...HAVE A GUN.
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Old 01-25-2012, 13:19   #20
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Originally Posted by PAGunner View Post
Do you have any links to this story? I'd like to read up on the details of this story.
Mas Ayoob wrote her incident up in his Ayoob Files in an American Handgunner issue many years ago. Last year another GTer who knows her personally said she's still an instructor for the LAPD academy. You may be able to find some info on her incident in Google.

Update:

Metal of Valor recipient 1991

http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...27#Stacy%20Lim
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Old 01-25-2012, 13:36   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkavaboy View Post
Mas Ayoob wrote her incident up in his Ayoob Files in an American Handgunner issue many years ago. Last year another GTer who knows her personally said she's still an instructor for the LAPD academy. You may be able to find some info on her incident in Google.

Update:

Metal of Valor recipient 1991

http://www.lapdonline.org/inside_the...27#Stacy%20Lim
That is an AMAZING story! Although the story said the bullet nicked her heart, had that bullet been placed 1/4 inch higher, she'd probably be dead. The fact it shot through her liver (very vascular, spongy structure easily damaged by bullets) and her spleen (another very vascular structure) and she survived 3 codes is simply amazing!

Even "nicking" the heart would usually eventually kill most people. She obviously had outstanding medical/surgical treatment, but this is genuinely an amazing story, I'm glad I had the chance to read about it!
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Old 01-25-2012, 14:03   #22
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Well for myself I think +p+ 9mm will do the job, with 18 of em I'm packing 7074 ft/lbs of energy. But the best thing is practice, if you cant hit it you might as well not carry.
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Old 01-25-2012, 14:04   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonGlock26 View Post
An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7866
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as suspected my 9 is fine

great article thanks for sharing!
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Old 01-25-2012, 14:11   #24
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The older I get, the more years go by, the more guns I own, the more I shoot, and the more I see I have began to care less and less about the figured power of a cartridge... This is my opinion of self defense and hunting... When I was a young child and learning to hunt, my elders (whom are very seasoned in reloading and rifle building) said calmy to me again and again that bullet placement dictates the outcome and not a bit of wrong can be found in that...

My next carry gun will probably just be the old winpy 9mm, unless an irrefuseable deals arises with something else... I prefer the inherent smaller firearms, and magazine capacity... Those two things mean to me that the smaller gun will be carried more frequently, and the higher mag capacity means that I can keep shooting and not give the assailant one moment of free reign if I were forced to reload...
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