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Old 02-18-2012, 09:46   #1
cfr
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Questions on the 9mm caliber.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/buickot2.htm

PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.

My disclaimer:

Over the the last year Ive gone back and forth between wanting to keep my .40's, or swtich out to 9's. Even my recent 26 vs. 27 test left me thinking that I may swap out in the future, but am going to hold off for the moment to fund other stuff. I say all of this so that nobody thinks Im attempting to rail on the 9mm, as I may myself be using it within the next year.

PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.

With that out of the way: The link posted got me wondering. The .40 goes all the way through the seat, the 9mm doesnt. I have no intention of shooting through a windshield anytime soon, but got to wondering:

Wouldnt this same logic of not being able to go through the seat be applicable to heavy clothing, muscle mass, etc.? Is there something about a winshield that makes this scenario unique compared to other those types of surfaces?

Of course over penetration could also be a consideration here.

PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.

Thanks!
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:51   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfr View Post
PLEASE DO NOT START A CALIBER WAR IN THIS THREAD.
like tearing a scab off and expecting it not to bleed
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:53   #3
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Some tests done down here a year or two ago suggested about the same terminal effects from our current 9mm .40 and .45 rounds including in cars (Ranger and HST.) My guess is that with current high end rounds in 9mm and .40 shot placement and luck will have far more effect on the outcome than the choice between 9mm and .40 will.
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Old 02-18-2012, 09:55   #4
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like tearing a scab off and expecting it not to bleed

I know it a lot to hope for, but a guy can dream.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:17   #5
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Shot placement is everything.

Caliber choice is second. There is no such thing as a magic bullet. I prefer a balance of bullet weight, capacity and energy on target. I'm a big fan of the .40 S&W for that reason. It can do everything the 9mm can do and do it better in most cases. The .45 can do everything that both the 9mm and .40 can do and do it without breaking a sweat.

Some people don't believe that a difference between calibers exists anymore. They argue that since that advent of modern technology, bullet design has advanced the 9mm up to everything else. It's true that advanced in technology have improved the 9mm by leaps and bounds and have allowed for the 9mm to come into it own.

However, keep in mind that the same technology that made the 9mm better did the same for all the other calibers out there as well. Nine is fine, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It is the smallest semi-auto pistol cartridge that I would ever consider for defensive purposes in a primary carry piece. With that said, there will always be a bigger and better choice. Pick the one that you shoot best and don't worry about it.

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Old 02-18-2012, 10:45   #6
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The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.
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Old 02-18-2012, 10:52   #7
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Shot placement is most important factor.

I shoot more accurately and have faster followup with 9mm.

For that reason I abandoned 45ACP and .40 S&W.

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Old 02-18-2012, 11:01   #8
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Great another CALIBER WAR thread.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:22   #9
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I sort of agree with Ronaldo.

Except I use a heavier weight 45 and I can control it just as well as my lighter weight 9. I do have a little trouble controlling my 40, since it weighs only an ounce or two more than the nine. It's not recoil that bothers me, it's just that the 40 has more of a 'snap' to it.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:27   #10
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Cfr, I don't think your link is really making much of a statement about which rounds penetrate more. As the author points out it depends on what the round happens to hit on its path through.

Pretty sure more methodical data has the .40 and 9 as equal in penetration.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:28   #11
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FBI Protocol Test Results

9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 - caliber
Win Ranger +P+ - the name of the load
115@1320 - bullet mass in grains @ muzzle velocity
21.7 mv - bullet momentum in lb*fps
444 E - muzzle energy in ftlbs
BR - what follows is the data for bare gelatin
9.6" inches of penetration
0.53", final expanded diameter of bullet
2.11 cu, approximation of wound volume. (this does not take into account the expansion profile as a function of depth, but it should be roughly proportionate to actual wound volume)
CL - what follows is the data for clothed gelatin
same fields as the bare gelatin, as defined above
avg 2.74 - Average wound volume, clothed and bare gelatin
3.89 re - Free Recoil Energy, assuming a 1.88 lb pistol
0.70 - Average would volume per unit Free Recoil Energy.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@ 864, 18.1 mv, 243 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.03cu|CL 15.2", 0.59", 4.17cu|avg 4.10, 2.72 re, 1.51
9x19 Win Ranger Talon|147@1017, 21.4 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.70cu|CL 15.5", 0.65", 5.14cu|avg 4.92, 3.77 re, 1.31
9x19 Win Ranger +P+ |115@1320, 21.7 mv, 444 E|BR 9.6", 0.53", 2.11cu|CL 10.2", 0.65", 3.37cu|avg 2.74, 3.89 re, 0.70
9x19 3-D |115@1178, 19.4 mv, 354 E|BR 11.6", 0.54", 2.66cu|CL 13.9", 0.48", 2.52cu|avg 2.59, 3.10 re, 0.84
9x19 Rem +P+ |115@1221, 20.1 mv, 380 E|BR 10.8", 0.63", 3.37cu|CL 10.9", 0.62", 3.29cu|avg 3.33, 3.33 re, 1.00
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1259, 20.7 mv, 404 E|BR 12.3", 0.67", 4.35cu|CL 22.1", 0.40", 2.78cu|avg 3.43, 3.54 re, 0.97
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |115@1197, 19.7 mv, 365 E|BR 12.8", 0.67", 4.51cu|CL 22.6", 0.44", 3.44cu|avg 3.78, 3.20 re, 1.18
9x19 CorBon +P |115@1317, 21.6 mv, 442 E|BR 8.9", 0.52", 1.90cu|CL 10.2", 0.61", 2.98cu|avg 2.44, 3.87 re, 0.63
9x19 Fed +P |115@1237, 20.3 mv, 390 E|BR 11.2", 0.53", 2.48cu|CL 10.6", 0.62", 3.20cu|avg 2.84, 3.41 re, 0.83
9x19 Fed Silvertip |115@1091, 17.9 mv, 304 E|BR 10.1", 0.63", 3.13cu|CL 11.8", 0.58", 3.12cu|avg 3.13, 2.66 re, 1.18
9x19 CCI/Speer GD +P |124@1223, 21.7 mv, 411 E|BR 13.4", 0.68", 4.87cu|CL 20.2", 0.53", 4.47cu|avg 4.64, 3.88 re, 1.20
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1116, 19.8 mv, 342 E|BR 11.8", 0.69", 4.41cu|CL 22.0", 0.36", 2.24cu|avg 3.22, 3.23 re, 1.00
9x19 Rem |124@1109, 19.6 mv, 338 E|BR 12.4", 0.60", 3.52cu|CL 13.7", 0.57", 3.50cu|avg 3.51, 3.19 re, 1.10
9x19 PMC/Eldorado SF |124@1118, 19.8 mv, 344 E|BR 10.7", 0.63", 3.32cu|CL 20.1", 0.41", 2.65cu|avg 2.98, 3.24 re, 0.92
9x19 CorBon XTP |124@1123, 19.9 mv, 347 E|BR 13.9", 0.56", 3.44cu|CL 18.3", 0.46", 3.04cu|avg 3.24, 3.27 re, 0.99
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 935, 19.6 mv, 285 E|BR 13.6", 0.60", 3.85cu|CL 16.1", 0.52", 3.41cu|avg 3.63, 3.19 re, 1.14
9x19 Win Black Talon |147@ 946, 19.9 mv, 292 E|BR 14.8", 0.60", 4.20cu|CL 16.4", 0.61", 4.78cu|avg 4.49, 3.26 re, 1.38
9x19 Rem |147@ 987, 20.7 mv, 318 E|BR 18.1", 0.51", 3.71cu|CL 15.9", 0.59", 4.36cu|avg 4.03, 3.55 re, 1.14
9x19 Hornady XTP |147@ 918, 19.3 mv, 275 E|BR 22.1", 0.44", 3.36cu|CL 20.5", 0.46", 3.41cu|avg 3.18, 3.07 re, 1.04
9x19 Fed HydraShok |147@ 995, 20.9 mv, 323 E|BR 21.4", 0.37", 2.30cu|CL 15.6", 0.60", 4.41cu|avg 3.28, 3.61 re, 0.91
9x19 Win Silvertip |147@ 902, 18.9 mv, 265 E|BR 14.6", 0.53", 3.22cu|CL 18.1", 0.47", 3.14cu|avg 3.18, 2.97 re, 1.07
9x19 CCI/Speer GD+P |124@1155, 20.5 mv, 367 E|BR 13.2", 0.62", 3.99cu|CL 16.1", 0.53", 3.55cu|avg 3.77, 3.46 re, 1.09
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |124@1068, 18.9 mv, 314 E|BR 12.6", 0.59", 3.44cu|CL 17.5", 0.51", 3.57cu|avg 3.51, 2.96 re, 1.19
9x19 CCI/Speer GD |147@ 924, 19.4 mv, 278 E|BR 14.8", 0.57", 3.78cu|CL 14.7", 0.55", 3.49cu|avg 3.63, 3.11 re, 1.17
9x19 Win Ranger PG |124@1015, 18.0 mv, 283 E|BR 12.5", 0.65", 4.15cu|CL 14.0", 0.61", 4.09cu|avg 4.12, 2.67 re, 1.54
9x19 Win Ranger T |147@1016, 21.3 mv, 337 E|BR 13.8", 0.66", 4.72cu|CL 15.7", 0.00", 0.00cu|avg 2.36, 3.76 re, 0.63
357SIG CCI/Speer GD |125@1372, 24.5 mv, 522 E|BR 16.1", 0.60", 4.54cu|CL 19.1", 0.54", 4.36cu|avg 4.45, 4.96 re, 0.90
40SW Win Ranger Talon|180@1000, 25.7 mv, 399 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.92cu|CL 13.5", 0.68", 4.90cu|avg 4.91, 5.47 re, 0.90
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1176, 26.0 mv, 475 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 18.1", 0.57", 4.62cu|avg 5.27, 5.61 re, 0.94
40SW CCI/Speer GD |155@1186, 26.3 mv, 483 E|BR 10.7", 0.84", 5.93cu|CL 17.7", 0.58", 4.68cu|avg 5.30, 5.70 re, 0.93
40SW Hornady XTP |155@1194, 26.4 mv, 490 E|BR 14.5", 0.65", 4.81cu|CL 18.1", 0.55", 4.30cu|avg 4.56, 5.78 re, 0.79
40SW Win Silvertip |155@1199, 26.5 mv, 494 E|BR 12.2", 0.69", 4.54cu|CL 13.2", 0.71", 5.21cu|avg 4.87, 5.83 re, 0.84
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |155@1167, 25.8 mv, 468 E|BR 13.8", 0.61", 4.02cu|CL 19.5", 0.51", 3.98cu|avg 4.00, 5.52 re, 0.72
40SW CCI/Speer GD |165@1076, 25.4 mv, 424 E|BR 13.1", 0.65", 4.33cu|CL 15.8", 0.60", 4.47cu|avg 4.40, 5.32 re, 0.83
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@1007, 23.7 mv, 371 E|BR 13.8", 0.62", 4.18cu|CL 15.2", 0.64", 4.87cu|avg 4.53, 4.66 re, 0.97
40SW Rem |165@1031, 24.3 mv, 389 E|BR 12.5", 0.67", 4.41cu|CL 16.3", 0.61", 4.76cu|avg 4.59, 4.88 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydeaShok |165@ 931, 21.9 mv, 317 E|BR 15.8", 0.58", 4.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.43", 3.06cu|avg 3.55, 3.98 re, 0.89
40SW Rem G.S. |165@ 952, 22.4 mv, 332 E|BR 13.1", 0.64", 4.21cu|CL 20.0", 0.53", 4.41cu|avg 4.31, 4.16 re, 1.04
40SW Rem G.S. |165@1022, 24.1 mv, 382 E|BR 14.8", 0.65", 4.89cu|CL 14.3", 0.66", 4.91cu|avg 4.90, 4.80 re, 1.02
40SW Fed HydraShok |165@ 943, 22.2 mv, 325 E|BR 18.2", 0.63", 5.69cu|CL 19.4", 0.56", 4.77cu|avg 5.23, 4.08 re, 1.28
40SW Win Ranger T. |180@ 947, 24.4 mv, 358 E|BR 13.8", 0.69", 5.14cu|CL 13.7", 0.70", 5.25cu|avg 5.20, 4.90 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 982, 25.3 mv, 385 E|BR 14.5", 0.59", 3.96cu|CL 17.6", 0.60", 4.96cu|avg 4.46, 5.27 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 931, 23.9 mv, 346 E|BR 16.8", 0.69", 6.28cu|CL 16.9", 0.63", 5.28cu|avg 5.78, 4.74 re, 1.22
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 945, 24.3 mv, 356 E|BR 16.9", 0.64", 5.44cu|CL 21.0", 0.43", 3.05cu|avg 4.17, 4.88 re, 0.85
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 893, 23.0 mv, 318 E|BR 15.7", 0.65", 5.19cu|CL 21.1", 0.51", 4.32cu|avg 4.64, 4.36 re, 1.06
40SW CCI/Speer GD |180@ 958, 24.6 mv, 366 E|BR 14.6", 0.60", 4.13cu|CL 17.1", 0.62", 5.16cu|avg 4.65, 5.02 re, 0.93
40SW Rem G.S. |180@ 954, 24.5 mv, 363 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.06cu|CL 14.8", 0.67", 5.20cu|avg 5.13, 4.98 re, 1.03
40SW Win B.T. |180@ 917, 23.6 mv, 336 E|BR 13.5", 0.69", 5.05cu|CL 14.4", 0.70", 5.54cu|avg 5.29, 4.60 re, 1.15
40SW Hornady XTP |180@ 929, 23.9 mv, 345 E|BR 13.9", 0.64", 4.49cu|CL 18.4", 0.55", 4.38cu|avg 4.44, 4.72 re, 0.94
40SW Fed HydraShok |180@ 969, 24.9 mv, 375 E|BR 14.2", 0.69", 5.29cu|CL 19.8", 0.59", 5.41cu|avg 5.35, 5.13 re, 1.04
40SW Fed Hi-Shok |180@ 960, 24.7 mv, 368 E|BR 14.8", 0.66", 5.05cu|CL 24.0", 0.47", 4.16cu|avg 4.26, 5.04 re, 0.85
40SW Win Ranger SXT |180@ 905, 23.3 mv, 327 E|BR 11.2", 0.70", 4.31cu|CL 13.0", 0.64", 4.18cu|avg 4.25, 4.48 re, 0.95
40SW Win Ranger PG |165@1109, 26.1 mv, 450 E|BR 13.1", 0.73", 5.48cu|CL 14.5", 0.72", 5.90cu|avg 5.69, 5.65 re, 1.01
40SW Win Ranger T |180@ 943, 24.2 mv, 355 E|BR 13.6", 0.68", 4.94cu|CL 14.6", 0.70", 5.62cu|avg 5.28, 4.86 re, 1.09
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:35   #12
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Stopping power is a myth in handguns, until you move into magnum level rounds. The chief advantage, probably the only advantage is that the .40 shoots heavier bullets, which retain their energy better, thus they tend to penetrate better.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:42   #13
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It didn't even say what kind of bullet was used... Supposedly bonded bullets like pdx1 and gold dot do better through windshields, also homogenous bullets like the dpx are supposed to do really well. As far as caliber, I know 40 and 45 can do better in a lot of ways than 9mm, but 9mm does recoil, capacity, and cost better than the other two, and that's why I chose it. When picking a caliber, you are not just picking it by its advantages, but by its disadvantages as well. From what I can tell, they all have about the same number of advantages and disadvantages, so pick your caliber by what you want and what you don't want. Always remeber, no matter what caliber you choose, it still just pokes a small hole through your target. We can't ever get rifle performance out of a carry pistol.
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Old 02-18-2012, 11:45   #14
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Just use what you shoot the most accurate and fastest.

Someone that can hit accurately and fast with a 22 scares me a lot more than a slow poor shot with a 9, 40 or a 45.

If you shoot both equally well than ammo cost might be a consideration.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:35   #15
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I like the 9mm and 45 a lot, and am just really starting to get a lot of range time with the 40 (even though I've owned them over the years). It wasn't until I got my G20SF this past year that I realized how much more the 10mm has to offer in terms of take down power, penetration, and over all performance. It's an outstanding caliber.

The 10mm takes the some of the best qualities from the 9mm, 40, and 45 and puts them all in a single package. It has the mass, bullet weight, velocity, and capacity that are a compromise between the 9mm, 40, and 45 and packs all those desirable qualities into a single cartridge. The more people continue to try out this great cartridge I think we will see less and less debate and decision making between which of the 3 major common calibers to choose from based on the merits each offers as people realize that the big 10 does it all and excels at doing so much more than the others.

There will always be a place for the 9, 40, & 45, but the 10 is in a class of it's own and far superior IMO. Actually maybe too superior for 2 legged threats in full power loads where there are many innocent bystanders such as in city environments. I made this observation from using it on deer and seeing the bullet from a full power load in the 180gr XTP blow right through a deer after taking out a large portion of spine with it. It will without a doubt get the job done, but if it will penetrate and drop a deer like that then it will without a doubt blow right through even the largest man (concern for extreme penetration). So maybe the 10mm is best reserved in rural or country environments?

So I came to the conclusion based on my experience in hunting with the 10, that a slower 40 cal bullet would do fantastic on a man. Ironically the FBI discovered the same thing WELL WELL before I did. I knew this before I came to the same conclusion, but there's a lot to be said for seeing with your own eyes rather than reading information on the net or in a book. The thing about the 40S&W is that it DOES take more practice to get as proficient as you can with the 9mm or 45 Auto if fired in a compact to subcompact package. At least that is true for me and the G23 I own. This might shun a lot of people away from the 40S&W due to the perceived snappy recoil, but investing a respectable amount of time on the range should have you shooting just as well as with a 9mm or 45 Auto.

So in the end I vote for the 40S&W so long as you can invest the time to become as proficient with it as the 9mm and 45 Auto, and also regularly practice to keep your muscle memory where it needs to be in terms of dealing with the recoil characteristics without having to feel like your having to force the weapon and put to much effort into your shooting. If you can't spend the time on the range to master the 40, then there is nothing wrong with the 9mm or 45. I personally like the 45 due to it's bullet size, penetration, and I really like the slow recoil impulse (and I have a LOT of practice with that caliber). Even so the 40S&W is simply a better carry package because you can get a firearm that is easier to conceal, has good penetration, bullet mass, and large capacity. It simply takes some work to get used to it, and some people just don't want to invest the time or are willing to get passed what they perceive as the 40S&W snappiness.

Either way you decide you have more than 1 round in the magazine. Let those bad boys go and you'll do just fine with any of these calibers.
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Old 02-18-2012, 12:58   #16
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On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.
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Old 02-18-2012, 13:05   #17
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Quote:
Is there something about a winshield that makes this scenario unique compared to other those types of surfaces?

YES!!!

Auto glass and especially windshields are an extremely difficult barrier for any bullet, not just service pistol bullets. It mangles them, even FMJs tend to get torn up by auto glass. JHPs typically exhibit extremely erratic expansion on account of their noses getting ruined on the way in, and all bullets usually show a lot less penetration after going through a windshield.

Also, seats are not analogous to clothing or muscle. They are a dry, fibrous barrier, like clothing, but they also have many rigid metal and plastic components that make it difficult or impossible to directly compare them. Muscle and clothing are nothing alike, and when heavy clothing "defeats" a hollowpoint, it does so by reducing or preventing the bullet from expanding. For all practical comparisons, there are two types of bullets for handguns, expanding and non-expanding. If a bullet does not expand, then it's penetration of living tissue is a very straightforward function of its velocity, diameter, sectional density, and momentum.

So if a JHP is fired through enough clothing to prevent it from expanding, it isn't going to exhibit reduced penetration, it will exhibit nearly identical penetration to an FMJ bullet of the same weight, caliber, and velocity. No matter how thick Jim T. Thuggington's jacket is, it isn't going to measureably reduce the penetration of a conventional JHP
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Old 02-18-2012, 13:09   #18
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The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.
It's true! I've seen pictures!
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Old 02-18-2012, 13:10   #19
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Probably should have been started in Caliber Corner
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Old 02-18-2012, 13:12   #20
bac1023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
The 9mm's penetration is very weak. Russian soldiers back in WWII had been known to wear their heavy greatcoats slathered with mud and the Nazi 9mm rounds wouldn't penetrate.

On the other hand, the .45ACP when hit the target would blow the person apart and flip the torso up ten feet into the air.
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