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Old 02-26-2012, 09:47   #81
1911ES
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I love the .45 ACP ... but have thoughts of adding the .357 SIG to my collection this year.
The G32 Gen4 is awful tempting ...
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Old 02-26-2012, 20:49   #82
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Shotgun aside-first, the 357 Mag and next 45 ACP...my choices.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:42   #83
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And just being "high capcity" doesn't insure peace of mind either..
I should have not just said 1911, but 45's in general. My mistake there. Weight is a factor when carrying ammo , but I still prefer the 45acp. It has "as we hear all the time," done a great job through a lot of wars my friend."

I assure you amigo, my family did not grow up "hearing" about it, they were out "doing it", and still are. From military to many LEO's in the bunch, past and present.. We all been shooting, hunting, ranching, since we were kids, and now 'some' still defending our butts..."

I'm not down on the 9mm. I can do with it what needs to be done. I just prefer a bigger hole when doing it.

They both have their place and use as you know..
I know you do a great job out there with the roo's and other things with the 9mm. Still sounds like fun. Hope my invitation is still open amigo !


BTW some times "tunnel rats used 9x18 maks." Still proves nothing in all this. You get in a small hole and start poppin bullets, about any thing works. ha.

Have a great one and stay safe.





CM
Well high capacity is very important - especially when your 1 guy and its all you have (in most cases of the people im refering that was there situation).

Now as for people still defending you who have in the past used the .45 - how old are these people? still serving after using it in the last armed conflict the US was issuing the .45 thatd have to be Vietnam and now there in Afghanistan? at the age of what 60?? geez! now if there LEO's well i find that interesting theyd send over serving cops as soldiers - anyway i found that a little confusing.

Ive seen 1st hand what a .45 can do to a living human - he certainly wasnt even incapacitated after being hit twice - this basically was in line with what id seen 1st hand with animals id shot - if i were to go with everything id seen then and there id have to put the .45 at the bottom of my list - but i wouldnt i happen to think its a great round - in all honesty i dont see it as a wise choice for the military.

As ive also mentioned the 9mm has been working well through alot of wars for us too, all of those 5 soldiers ive known all were brought home by it.

I appreciate your love for the .45 but fact of the matter is the 9mm is alot more versatile - hearing this 'we'd prefer something bigger' well its just a mind set and the disadvantages of it in war time (there are many) completely outweigh it.

That was my only reason to jump on here to just say hey theres really nothing wrong with the 9mm in its current usage.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:47   #84
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Well high capacity is very important - especially when your 1 guy and its all you have (in most cases of the people im refering that was there situation).

Now as for people still defending you who have in the past used the .45 - how old are these people? still serving after using it in the last armed conflict the US was issuing the .45 thatd have to be Vietnam and now there in Afghanistan? at the age of what 60?? geez! now if there LEO's well i find that interesting theyd send over serving cops as soldiers - anyway i found that a little confusing.

Ive seen 1st hand what a .45 can do to a living human - he certainly wasnt even incapacitated after being hit twice - this basically was in line with what id seen 1st hand with animals id shot - if i were to go with everything id seen then and there id have to put the .45 at the bottom of my list - but i wouldnt i happen to think its a great round - in all honesty i dont see it as a wise choice for the military.

As ive also mentioned the 9mm has been working well through alot of wars for us too, all of those 5 soldiers ive known all were brought home by it.

I appreciate your love for the .45 but fact of the matter is the 9mm is alot more versatile - hearing this 'we'd prefer something bigger' well its just a mind set and the disadvantages of it in war time (there are many) completely outweigh it.

That was my only reason to jump on here to just say hey theres really nothing wrong with the 9mm in its current usage.



Your question here...

Quote:
Now as for people still defending you who have in the past used the .45 - how old are these people? still serving after using it in the last armed conflict the US was issuing the .45 thatd have to be Vietnam and now there in Afghanistan? at the age of what 60?? geez! now if there LEO's well i find that interesting theyd send over serving cops as soldiers - anyway i found that a little confusing.
Quote:
CanyonMan said I assure you amigo, my family did not grow up "hearing" about it, they were out "doing it", and still are. From military to many LEO's in the bunch, "past and present".. We all been shooting, hunting, ranching, since we were kids, and now 'some' still defending our butts.
We sure do not want you confused now do we ?

What is so confusing ?

Those that have served in WW2 and Korea and Nam are obviously not serving now. But we have here what we call kids and grandkids, and great grand kids, tons of cousins and other assorted realitives... A good number of those have choose over the years to follow in the foot steps of their dads/grand dads, et et, that they consider heros.. pretty simple really.


The older ones who served are obviously retired of course. Some of those youngsters in the family were in the sand box (all home now, with the last one just getting backa few months ago), and several of our family are LEO's, out defending and protecting our butts ! I'm not confused... You read it wrong, or i wrote it wrong, I see no big deal here Clear as a bell to me ! Don't try to make a big deal outta nothin here pard.

Glad you like your 9mm. I prefer the 45. Hope that is alright.



Adios and done !












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Old 02-27-2012, 09:35   #85
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useless 9 vs. 45 argument

My family goes back to the Revolutionary war (Member of the SAR) , I am an Army Vet and my brother served in Nam and my son in Iraq.We go all the way back. We are proud of our heritage as you are. Good Americans doing what they should do! My Dad in the Navy carried a 1911 on the beach invading Normandy in WWII and my Grandfather carried a Colt 45 revolver serving in France in WWI in the US Cavalry-yes he rode a horse! I was a medic and did not carry a gun except in basic training where I shot an M-1 and qualified Expert.
When my son was in Iraq, they took away their Berettas and gave them to the Doctors etc., serving in the rear (?) areas. Before he went over I gave him a really nice Colt 45 ACP, slicked up and hard chrome plated for his use-He is an officer - we thought he would be able to carry it., WRONG, Army sez no personal weapons and NO KNIVES either. what kind of BS is that.? Before they took their Berettas I sent him bunches of 9mm Beretta mags I bought here as the ones they had over there were low bid junk that did not work!
He managed to secure some enemy weapons (9mm Brownings)and some Egyptian ammo that worked OK-they used them for a while until a bunch of Marines they were replacing at a FOB told him about their personal glocks that they had bought and brought with them -their commander told them they had to leave them there-no weapons were allowed to be brought out with threat of Court Martial....SO, their Sarge offered my son two bags of Glocks they buried in FOB-My son went and dug them up and that is what they used (with captured ammo) until they shipped out. Thanks Army! The argument 45 vs. 9 a waste of time -my good buddy who did 2 tours in Nam as an Infantry Officer and combat (purple heart) vet literally threw his 1911 away as so much junk -he much preferred the 223 rifle and used it to good effect according to him. Just one man's opinion -don't get excited. I also have a Marine bud who loved his 1911, regaling me with stories of shooting the enemy in Nam with great effect! So-just pick one and go with it.
To me, the shortage of ammo and guns both are more of the story than which one you use to kill the enemy.
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Old 02-27-2012, 10:03   #86
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My family goes back to the Revolutionary war (Member of the SAR) , I am an Army Vet and my brother served in Nam and my son in Iraq.We go all the way back. We are proud of our heritage as you are. Good Americans doing what they should do! My Dad in the Navy carried a 1911 on the beach invading Normandy in WWII and my Grandfather carried a Colt 45 revolver serving in France in WWI in the US Cavalry-yes he rode a horse! I was a medic and did not carry a gun except in basic training where I shot an M-1 and qualified Expert.
When my son was in Iraq, they took away their Berettas and gave them to the Doctors etc., serving in the rear (?) areas. Before he went over I gave him a really nice Colt 45 ACP, slicked up and hard chrome plated for his use-He is an officer - we thought he would be able to carry it., WRONG, Army sez no personal weapons and NO KNIVES either. what kind of BS is that.? Before they took their Berettas I sent him bunches of 9mm Beretta mags I bought here as the ones they had over there were low bid junk that did not work!
He managed to secure some enemy weapons (9mm Brownings)and some Egyptian ammo that worked OK-they used them for a while until a bunch of Marines they were replacing at a FOB told him about their personal glocks that they had bought and brought with them -their commander told them they had to leave them there-no weapons were allowed to be brought out with threat of Court Martial....SO, their Sarge offered my son two bags of Glocks they buried in FOB-My son went and dug them up and that is what they used (with captured ammo) until they shipped out. Thanks Army! The argument 45 vs. 9 a waste of time -my good buddy who did 2 tours in Nam as an Infantry Officer and combat (purple heart) vet literally threw his 1911 away as so much junk -he much preferred the 223 rifle and used it to good effect according to him. Just one man's opinion -don't get excited. I also have a Marine bud who loved his 1911, regaling me with stories of shooting the enemy in Nam with great effect! So-just pick one and go with it.
To me, the shortage of ammo and guns both are more of the story than which one you use to kill the enemy.


Amen !


Very Well said and thanks !





Stay safe amigo.











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Old 02-27-2012, 16:26   #87
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If high capacity is in your dreams, might I suggest an MP5. Now, there's plenty of spray and pray 9mm subsonic ammo. Unless someone has a bullet proof vest on or was hit in the shoulder, leg, butt or leg, he's going down after two center of mass hits with a 45...9mm also if the right ammo is chosen. The thing about the 9mm is if it wasn't for current well designed hollow points it's one of the biggest failures since the 38 Colt. It has to have good hollow points to work while the 45 doesn't. Bigger is not only better-it's best.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:04   #88
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I think for military use, .45 ACP makes sense since they are not allowed to use hollow points. .45 ACP is obviously going to make a bigger hole and spread out more energy than a 9mm (both FMJ).

However, in the civilian world I will take the 9mm. It comes in much, much smaller framed guns and with modern ammo it is plenty deadly.
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Old 02-28-2012, 02:40   #89
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Your question here...





We sure do not want you confused now do we ?

What is so confusing ?

Those that have served in WW2 and Korea and Nam are obviously not serving now. But we have here what we call kids and grandkids, and great grand kids, tons of cousins and other assorted realitives... A good number of those have choose over the years to follow in the foot steps of their dads/grand dads, et et, that they consider heros.. pretty simple really.


The older ones who served are obviously retired of course. Some of those youngsters in the family were in the sand box (all home now, with the last one just getting backa few months ago), and several of our family are LEO's, out defending and protecting our butts ! I'm not confused... You read it wrong, or i wrote it wrong, I see no big deal here Clear as a bell to me ! Don't try to make a big deal outta nothin here pard.

Glad you like your 9mm. I prefer the 45. Hope that is alright.



Adios and done !












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Well here was the confusion - youve basically implied the comparison was seen first hand by those people - as in theyve seen both 9mm and .45 in action - as in war times, which i had a hard time understanding.

Ive seen some black and white pictures taken in Belfast of a shooting involving a plain clothed officer who shot dead 3 IRA soldiers in a car, after looking at those pictures in detail and how the bullets penetrated the car doors and pillars id go so far as to say the officer was alot better off having a 9mm in that situation compared to a .45 - which ive seen bounce off car doors/pillars/structures - THAT is something very important to soldiers (dont bother showing me some pics of car doors youve shot with a .45 - yeah sure sometimes they work) but once you introduce angles and distance .45's can deflect pretty bad.

Hey glad you like the .45 best - thats super - just because youve told relatives there better off with a .45 - dosent make a better gun to have in a war zone.

The friend i knew who was shot dead with one actually had survivable wounds and his blood loss wasnt bad at all - he simply died because the guy pulling the trigger let him bleed out he wasnt incapacitated - ive never gotten a straight answer from a .45 lover as to why it did that.

But hey if your out have a good time.
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:14   #90
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Well here was the confusion - youve basically implied the comparison was seen first hand by those people - as in theyve seen both 9mm and .45 in action - as in war times, which i had a hard time understanding.

Ive seen some black and white pictures taken in Belfast of a shooting involving a plain clothed officer who shot dead 3 IRA soldiers in a car, after looking at those pictures in detail and how the bullets penetrated the car doors and pillars id go so far as to say the officer was alot better off having a 9mm in that situation compared to a .45 - which ive seen bounce off car doors/pillars/structures - THAT is something very important to soldiers (dont bother showing me some pics of car doors youve shot with a .45 - yeah sure sometimes they work) but once you introduce angles and distance .45's can deflect pretty bad.

Hey glad you like the .45 best - thats super - just because youve told relatives there better off with a .45 - dosent make a better gun to have in a war zone.

The friend i knew who was shot dead with one actually had survivable wounds and his blood loss wasnt bad at all - he simply died because the guy pulling the trigger let him bleed out he wasnt incapacitated - ive never gotten a straight answer from a .45 lover as to why it did that.

But hey if your out have a good time.

Sorry you walked away with the wrong immpression of what I said... Again, I was NOT confused and my post did not seem confusing to me or wny one else, PLUS I came back and explained it clear as a bell to "you"...

Also, why are ya makin a big deal out of I don't even know what ! Smells like the work of a couple others here who just like to argue all the time. You and I have always got along pard. I have had enough of this. It is a major waste of time and has NO meaning at all, it is very very simple.

BTW... I have NEVER said or told my realitives they were better off with a 45. They already had sense enough to know that !


So long amigo. Seriously done on this no where conversation..

If your still confused. Check out post # 84. That should un-confuse you.



Stay safe.







CM
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Old 02-28-2012, 08:19   #91
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The 10mm came into existence in the early 80's. Shortly after the Miami shootout occurred and FBI adopted the 10mm. The 10mm was too powerful for standard issue so it was dropped by FBI. However the 10mm had certain desirable characteristics such as better trajectory and range than the big ol .45. So the .40 S&W was created to address recoil.
And there's why there is no "best" self defense caliber - because it's not just the effect of the ammunition on a target that mattters, there are also factors like the size and skill of the shooter - I'd choose .357 or 10mm as my "best" caliber, but others might have trouble shooting those fast. Then there's the problem of what gun to carry - if we all had a tactical ninja thigh holster with a full-size gun, I'd again choose .357 or 10mm, but since I usually carry a small gun concealed, those may not work for me. I'm more likely to carry .380.

The best caliber is what meets all of your various ammo needs the best. If we were really choosing a best caliber for self-defense without worrying about recoil or concealment, none of them would beat 12 ga.
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Old 02-28-2012, 19:19   #92
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To unequivocally answer the OP's question...without controversy the 12 ga with 00 buck IF you consider 00 buck a caliber, and it is, .33 in fact.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:13   #93
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When you are considering caliber as to which one is the best, I thing you have to look at the whole picture; platform, capacity, recoil and the ability to do fast follow up shots, the size of the person, etc. If I had only one round to shoot and I could place it anywhere I want, it would be the 10mm. However, the world does not work that way and frankly I am not as fast and accurate with the 10mm, and I am a pretty good shot. If I were to look at it honestly, it would come down to the 357 magnum or the 357 Sig. I would go with the 357 sig. It carries more rounds in a smaller platform and although it is lighter than the magnum it has less recoil and faster follow up shots. Finally, the magnum is very capacity limited. No one could say a 9mm with a straight face. Yes it has killed a lot of people, but so have knives. The new bullets have made it more effective, but it loses wind long before the 357 sig. The 40 and 45 ACP are good calibers.

I am old enough to come for the revolver era and the 1911 was also there, but the vast majority of people who needed their guns to save their lives carried a 357 magnum, unless the did not know any better and put 38 specials in it.

To me the jury is out on the 40, I think it is very effective with the right ammo, which would be the hot 155 - 165gr loads. I own two Glock 23's, two Glock 32's and an XD in 357 Sig. I always get the feeling when I am shooting the 40 that it is a little like kissing your sister.
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Old 02-29-2012, 03:19   #94
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Evolution often goes 'forward' yet to a dead end because the result of that evolution was not desirable
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:15   #95
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Sorry you walked away with the wrong immpression of what I said... Again, I was NOT confused and my post did not seem confusing to me or wny one else, PLUS I came back and explained it clear as a bell to "you"...

Also, why are ya makin a big deal out of I don't even know what ! Smells like the work of a couple others here who just like to argue all the time. You and I have always got along pard. I have had enough of this. It is a major waste of time and has NO meaning at all, it is very very simple.

BTW... I have NEVER said or told my realitives they were better off with a 45. They already had sense enough to know that !


So long amigo. Seriously done on this no where conversation..

If your still confused. Check out post # 84. That should un-confuse you.



Stay safe.







CM
Well i honestly know that perceived 'sense' your relatives have is only from what youve told them - because from what youve already said they havent had to use the .45 and 9mm seperately in combat - which youve agreed on.

Im different from the usual 2 guys you argue with - ive seen enough of what bullets can do to living things on 2 legs and 4 - and ive got enough of an idea whatll work - never said the .45 was no good - but i do believe the 9mm is alot better choice given all my above reasons, plus what i see it do on alot of animals ive shot.

So there it is, i dont like arguing but end of the day you were on implying something ive seen work dosent - had to say something - enjoy.
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Old 03-01-2012, 02:59   #96
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I'm joining this late and have only read page four. Going back to the 357mag days some years ago it's interesting as to what felons had to say about the mag. Basically, they knew that if they were hit, and from the business end they knew where they would be hit, that they would die when shot.

Revolver designed bullets are designed for performance with their exposed lead design and autopsies show a crush cavity that's had a large amount of soft tissue pushed ahead of the expanding bullet, complete with very dynamic exit wounds. End results were the same with both 125,gr and 158 gr JHPs.
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:02   #97
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125 gr at 1350 fps or 230 gr at 850 fps. I don't want to get hit with either or anything in between.
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:24   #98
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I'm joining this late and have only read page four. Going back to the 357mag days some years ago it's interesting as to what felons had to say about the mag. Basically, they knew that if they were hit, and from the business end they knew where they would be hit, that they would die when shot.

Revolver designed bullets are designed for performance with their exposed lead design and autopsies show a crush cavity that's had a large amount of soft tissue pushed ahead of the expanding bullet, complete with very dynamic exit wounds. End results were the same with both 125,gr and 158 gr JHPs.
Some years back I was talking with a deputy about the 357mag/158gr SJHPs many LEAs carried and explained to him the significant amount of damage they caused to soft tissue and bone. Of the few number of OIS incidents, no felons survived. The deputy had seen a few shootings with 9s and 40s plus some of the lesser calibers. On a call to a home invasion, the home owner shot and killed the intruder with a 357mag/Remington 158gr SJHP, single shot.

He was very surprised at the extensive amount wound trauma the bullet had caused, plus its dynamic exit wound. Soft tissue and blood extended down a 20ft hallway and the home owner reported it was an instant stop.

What the home owner reported was the norm back in the day, not the exception and autopsies bored this out.

Anyway, the times when I carry the mag, whether working out back at my place or staying in a motel, I have complete confidence that I'm carrying a fight stopper whether it be four legged vermin or social miscreants.
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Old 03-01-2012, 03:44   #99
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Well i honestly know that perceived 'sense' your relatives have is only from what youve told them - because from what youve already said they havent had to use the .45 and 9mm seperately in combat - which youve agreed on.

Im different from the usual 2 guys you argue with - ive seen enough of what bullets can do to living things on 2 legs and 4 - and ive got enough of an idea whatll work - never said the .45 was no good - but i do believe the 9mm is alot better choice given all my above reasons, plus what i see it do on alot of animals ive shot.

So there it is, i dont like arguing but end of the day you were on implying something ive seen work dosent - had to say something - enjoy.
When heading into town I often carry a Colt 1911 XSE in 45 auto, however, at my place it's a 1911 in 38Super that's seen a lot of use. Last week a coyote advanced toward myself and German Shepherd, brought the Colt 38Super/125gr XTP @1491fps and took the shot. Took out a small chunk of bone and cartilage, but it still ran off into thick mesquite with its wounded shoulder. At 95 yards I would not have taken the shot with a 45auto.

In the last few weeks I've been carrying a Para SSP 1911/38Super to town because I've duplicated Speer's 357Sig/125gr Gold Dot @1371fps. It's a tough bullet design that has less recoil than modern design 230gr JHPs meaning faster split times.
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Old 03-01-2012, 09:01   #100
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Well i honestly know that perceived 'sense' your relatives have is only from what youve told them - because from what youve already said they havent had to use the .45 and 9mm seperately in combat - which youve agreed on.

Im different from the usual 2 guys you argue with - ive seen enough of what bullets can do to living things on 2 legs and 4 - and ive got enough of an idea whatll work - never said the .45 was no good - but i do believe the 9mm is alot better choice given all my above reasons, plus what i see it do on alot of animals ive shot.

So there it is, i dont like arguing but end of the day you were on implying something ive seen work dosent - had to say something - enjoy.

Whatever you say ace ! haha.

I must admit your one confused dude man. I never implied or said any of this stuff. You need to learn to read amigo..

Your on the ignore list..


Have a good one





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Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42