Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-21-2012, 11:31   #61
3/4Flap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Idaho Nowhere near a McDonald's
Posts: 1,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Nowlin View Post
Do the Gen 1 & 2 extractors wear out and have to be replaced often? I doubt that they did. Removing metal in order to slightly reshape our extractors so that they work the way they are supposed to shouldn't be a problem. When you try filing on the extractor you will quickly discover it is a hardened part. The brass case head on the other hand is a relatively soft part. When the two work against each other, which do you expect to show wear? Even if I have to change extractors every 20,000 rounds, it would be a small price to pay for reliable, consistent ejection. Maybe I'm just older tha a lot of you. I don't know. In the past I have had 1911s from Para-Ord, Colt & Kimber in sizes from Officers Model to Government model with no ejection problems. I've had a Sig 220 & 229 with no ejection problems. I've had metal frame S&Ws in9mm, 10mm, 40 S&W and .45 a.c.p. and none of them had ejection problems. I've also had two Springfield XDs with no ejection problems. I've never been hit in the face or head with brass from any weapon I've owned until the G30SF. It shouldn't and won't continue to throw brass into my face. In fact I have fixed it now. Regardless of what some say, when you get hit in the face enough your brain will begin reacting to this. Sort of like a flinch but instead, you will be slightly ducking your head. Your brain will attempt to protect you even if you don't try and protect yourself. It's sort of like when your eye blinks to keep a bug from getting in it. The brain registers the presence of the bug and makes your eye blink before you realize the bug is there. When the brass is hitting you in the face, your sub-concious mind is going to work to protect you whether you like it or not. Now try and do your best shooting with that in the back of your mind.
Hey, first things first;

I've been misspelling Dave's handle.

Can somebody fix that??

Sorry!!!

Next, I 100% agree with Dave and William Springer makes good points.

As for wear, look, does anyone know if any damage or excessive wear is being induced with bad extractors now? How does relieving tight spots and improving grip on the case inject added likelihood of failure?

Obviously if somebody grinds down the hook the extractor could be compromised, but that is NOT what we are talking about.
3/4Flap is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 11:55   #62
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by jw38 View Post
Just finished my 19 and took it into our back yard to shoot 5 quick rounds. According to my Wife, all 5 cases were in about the same consistent line to the right side. I'm Happy. No more embarrassment at the Range because I would get my football helment and gogles out. Now off to my 27. Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Funny about the football helmet, but so true.
ithaca_deerslayer is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 12:01   #63
AA#5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 5,099
Quote:
Originally Posted by NucPhysics View Post
First, I want want to say it is impressive what you are doing to resolve the ejection problems with your Glocks.

But what does that say about Glock that their owners are having to resort to gunsmithing their own guns to get them to work better.

Impressed with you guys, not with Glock right now.
Amazing, isn't it? In order to remain passionate Glock fans, some people lose their common sense.
AA#5 is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 13:47   #64
ken grant
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: middle ga.
Posts: 1,413
OK you guys looking at how the case contacts the extractor remember with the case centered on the breechface is not the way it is when the barrel drops down.
When the ejector hits the case it is much lower on the breechface and that is the place to check extractor fit to the case.
ken grant is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 13:57   #65
ak103k
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PA- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 705
Not saying that there arent some issues with the different extractors, but I am wondering how much of this is also ammo, and specifically, "case" related.

99% of what I shoot are my reloads. The more I load and shoot the same brass, the worse this problem seems to get. When I shoot factory loaded ammo, or reloaded brass thats once fired, or only been loaded a couple of times, I dont seem to have the problem.

As an example, when I got back into 9mm Glocks, I initially bought a 17 and a 26. I had a bunch of once fired 9mm brass, so I loaded up 3000 rounds of it have been rotating through that same lot of brass ever since. Other than the usual replacements for lost or failing brass, its been the same stuff all along for a number of years now.

My 17 started to bean me on the head more and more as time wore on, and I was thinking it was the extractor, so I replaced it and its spring. The round count at that point was probably around 10-15000 rounds.

At first, it seemed like it stopped with the erratic ejection, but soon after, even with the new extractor installed, it was right back to it. At this point, its probably got somewhere around 30000 through it, and I still get beaned pretty regular.

Now when I shoot factory ammo, like a box of Federal or Winchester, it never seems to miss a beat.

Makes me think that a lot of this is what we shoot out of the gun, more than it is the gun itself, or at least, with mine it seems that way.
ak103k is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 14:52   #66
cciman
Senior Member
 
cciman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: SW Ohio
Posts: 2,759
No I am just suggesting to change the physics-- how you do it is up to you. Everyone seems to be complaining about "ejection' without quantifying what that is.... seems to revolve around getting hit in the head/face. This is not necessarily a gun problem-- if you change the ammo choice you will change the trajectory, and the rate of 'ejection' issues. Worrying about getting hit in the head 2/100 times is over obsessing. If anyone ever did a study on ammo load, I would bet 2% variance is within spec especially for practice ammo, even worse for homemade, depending on the individual and the equipment used.

If you change the recoil spring (heavier or lighter, I did not say which- but to lighten perceived recoil go heavier, not by much but it will affect trajectory path) you will also change the ejection trajectory.

Comparing Gen3 to Gen 4 is comparing green apples to red oranges, or the LT1 to the LS1. The Gen4's have a different recoil rod and spring, as well as other features (extractors, ejectors), it will behave differently-- all for the price of reducing recoil when using non-practice ammo, and having adjustable grips with nubs. You can closely turn a gen 4 into a Gen 3 by using a rod adapter bushing, and using the gen3 RSA. Enjoy this mental bation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3/4Flap View Post
Basically; No.

Use a different gun for example. Once upon a time I had a large collection of Finnish Mosin-Nagant rifles. The extractor on the M-N can depending on manufacture seat slightly too far forward for a tight grip of the case. I had one that was not functioning properly in this regard. However, if you just yank the bolt back ridiculously hard, the case will come out and be ejected. However, if you worked the bolt slowly or "normally" the case ...might...fall off the extractor.

What you are recommending in effect is that. Yank the bolt back super hard.

That is no solution.

A 9x19 should function properly with all normal ammo. I've demonstrated numerous time that 115/1100 IS normal ammo in the 9x19. So is 124/1075. That is historically the loads that were very common in 9x19 manufacture. To suggest that "shooting heavier ammo" is the fix for a 9x19 today should not be the path followed.

For one thing, the old Gen 3's did just fine thank you will all ammo from lighter loads to +P. They and the Gen 4's should now, too.
cciman is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 14:58   #67
Dave Nowlin
Fisher of Men
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Savannah, Tn.
Posts: 259
The stuff that was beating me in the head and face was new hardball. Actually if the rotation of the extractor around the post is limited then things will get worse as the case head experiences wear. Now if you relieved things a few thousandths, it would swing in farther and continue to maintain a good grip on your reloads. I am a reloader and don't often shoot ammo I don't reload but someone gave me 4 boxes of hardball in .45 a.c.p. in a gun trade. They threw it in, so I took it.
Dave Nowlin is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 15:35   #68
ithaca_deerslayer
Senior Member
 
ithaca_deerslayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Posts: 20,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by cciman View Post
No I am just suggesting to change the physics-- how you do it is up to you. Everyone seems to be complaining about "ejection' without quantifying what that is.... seems to revolve around getting hit in the head/face. This is not necessarily a gun problem-- if you change the ammo choice you will change the trajectory, and the rate of 'ejection' issues. Worrying about getting hit in the head 2/100 times is over obsessing. . .
2 in 100 is a problem. 2 in 50 is a problem. 2 in 10 is a problem. Empties to the face is a problem. It is a gun problem. Not an ammo problem.

If this happened with another gun, lots of people would have dropped it and gotten a different brand. The Glock is worth fixing. Lots of the people with this gun problem have other Glocks that don't do it. Have other guns that don't do it. The gun that does it is a problem gun. But hopefully it can be fixed.

Hot brass to your own eyes is not the best way to start a self-defense situation
ithaca_deerslayer is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 16:43   #69
3/4Flap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Idaho Nowhere near a McDonald's
Posts: 1,091
First, I am not "passionate" about anything other than God my Savior Jesus Christ, my family and my country.

"Glock" is a darn tool that's broke and I don't feel like going thru the motions of selling it in order to buy a Smith M&P that has some other cockamamey problem. I am a magnet for gun warts.

So a fix that takes me ten minutes seems to be a no brainer if it actually results in "Glock Perfection".

Second, Glocks of the past were well-known to eject all their fired cases in a hat thrown on the ground. They still do but now the shooter has to wear the hat.

CCI: all of what you say is true, but look, if the gun can be made to work with all ammo, what's not to love?

As for the point about reloaded ammo, well, yes, in any automatic gun mechanism the tendency is to experience more and more failures to function as cases are reloaded. Case dimensions DO change and case heads expand over time. Try reloading for a Remington 742...you get three or four loadings and the gun jams. I hate those guns!

Semiauto cases WILL have a "life expectancy" not necessarily due to actual case failure, but due to dimensional changes of the case head and the inability of the sizing die to reach the entire head due to the position of the case holder. Nature of the beast.

As for the "philosophy" of discussion that these things tend to foster, well, I really don't care whether Glock should have, didn't, might, is worse or better for not making the perfect pistol in the world. What I care about is getting my guns to work 100%. If they don't do it, I will, or find a way, or get rid of the gun.

I don't shoot philosophy, I shoot guns.

Last edited by 3/4Flap; 02-21-2012 at 16:47..
3/4Flap is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 17:14   #70
ak103k
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PA- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 705
Quote:
Semiauto cases WILL have a "life expectancy" not necessarily due to actual case failure, but due to dimensional changes of the case head and the inability of the sizing die to reach the entire head due to the position of the case holder.
I shoot mine until they "fail", which usually means the neck splits/cracks. "Life expectancy" is usually literally "years" worth of loading for most of them too. In the case of this lot of 9mm Im shooting now, means a rotation of around 8 weeks give or take for the 3000 Im currently loading and Ive been loading them a little over three years now. Im just now starting to get a split case showing up here and there.

Never had any issues with the case not being properly sized though, and thats across most auto calibers from .32 to .45.



I just found the last extractor I removed and cleaned it up a bit according to whats been posted here. Ill take it out tomorrow and see if theres any difference.
ak103k is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 18:17   #71
dusty_dragon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 646
sorry for my , perhaps dumb, question, but with polishin the top and bottom part of the extractor as one first soolution to the problem, which parts of the extractor exactly do you mean with "top" and "bottom"?

i suppose you mean the top and bottom edge on the long side of the extractor that fit in the longish groove in the slide, right?

and another question:
did you try also polishing at the inside of the claw of the extractor?
dusty_dragon is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 18:53   #72
3/4Flap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Idaho Nowhere near a McDonald's
Posts: 1,091
Quote:
Originally Posted by ak103k View Post
I just found the last extractor I removed and cleaned it up a bit according to whats been posted here. Ill take it out tomorrow and see if theres any difference.
Will you be shooting the "problem" brass?

THAT would be very interesting to read about.

Please post your results!
3/4Flap is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 19:01   #73
ak103k
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: PA- In the shadow of the Shade
Posts: 705
Yup. Same brass. Ill let you know.
ak103k is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 21:28   #74
captdreifus
aSun666
 
captdreifus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Tempe, Arizona
Posts: 1,589
Good info here.
__________________
"I dont believe in an eye for an eye..I believe in two eyes for an eye" Bas Rutten
captdreifus is offline  
Old 02-21-2012, 22:59   #75
Terry C.
in the swamp
 
Terry C.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Waycross, GA USA
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty_dragon View Post
sorry for my , perhaps dumb, question, but with polishin the top and bottom part of the extractor as one first soolution to the problem, which parts of the extractor exactly do you mean with "top" and "bottom"?

i suppose you mean the top and bottom edge on the long side of the extractor that fit in the longish groove in the slide, right?

and another question:
did you try also polishing at the inside of the claw of the extractor?
Maybe "top" and "bottom" are not technically correct terms, but that's what I call them.

As you are looking at the extractor in its groove, that's how I define "top" and "bottom."

In the pic in post #23, you are looking at what I call the bottom of the extractor.

.

Last edited by Terry C.; 02-22-2012 at 06:48.. Reason: Ooops, late nite flu-bug post.
Terry C. is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 03:48   #76
dusty_dragon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 646
thanks, Terry C, now i got it. but i think you mean the extractor in it's groove, not the ejector, as mentioned in your post above, right?

did you also polish the inward side of the claw/hook of the extractor
dusty_dragon is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 06:54   #77
Terry C.
in the swamp
 
Terry C.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Waycross, GA USA
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty_dragon View Post
thanks, Terry C, now i got it. but i think you mean the extractor in it's groove, not the ejector, as mentioned in your post above, right?

did you also polish the inward side of the claw/hook of the extractor
You caught me, and I edited.

It was late and I've had the flu. I should have been zonked on Nyquil intead.


I have not touched anything on mine except the stoning of the top and bottom. I figured the less I could do and make it work, the better.

I may clean up the claw a little but I don't plan on removing enough metal to change anything. At least not as long as I'm not having problems.

I will try to post a pick tonight, you can clearly see where the stone polished the extractor.
Terry C. is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 07:36   #78
dusty_dragon
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 646
thanks a lot, Terry C.
dusty
dusty_dragon is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 07:37   #79
3/4Flap
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Idaho Nowhere near a McDonald's
Posts: 1,091
Not sure why I did not post this originally, but;

I had a heck of a time getting the EXTRACTOR out of the slide.

I mean, it was a real pain. It would not lift or pry out. There was obvious tension or almost grittiness about the seat. Yes, there was some dirt present but nothing overwhelming. I finally resorted to banging the slide sideways on a book laid on a stout table.

Once out, I cleaned it and tried its seat inside the slide and it was still hanging up, "gritty" so-to-speak.

After stoning, the extractor slid more easily inside the slide.

Now, I just looked at a pic that Butch posted of old and new parts and my extractor appears to have more pronounced mold ridges'flashing than even his "new" part. His "old" part is of course, basically smooth.

Now, for those who warn against modifying an extractor for fear of reduction of service life, I again ask the opposite question;

Which is this;

Should we not also be concerned about haphazard placement of the extractor on the case head that may be the result of the extractor hanging up on the slide as it moves back and forth. True, the extractor is a hardened part and the case head/rim/groove base is much softer, BUT the grit that develops inside the gun from shooting, etc, over time may form a lap of sorts and wear the point of the extractor or the slide internal bearing surfaces or alter some other portion of the mating surfaces as applied by the case head or the extractor/slide bearing parts.

No, I want nothing to do with a part that has obvious excess flashing, sticks in the slide and doesn't move freely. None of those conditions can do anything positive for short or longterm functioning reliability.

Now, WHY did the gun work well at the beginning and lose efficiency over time?

I cannot say for sure, and naturally hope that it is not because some serious harm was caused to the groove in the slide, but I wonder if a slight amount of grit is all that is necessary to inhibit free movement of the extractor due to ridges on the extractor. It does look like the extractor has been redesigned to allow fouling buildup inside the relieved area. But such fixes don't always work as they should if they are offset by some other factor.

I'm going to remove mine again, check for free sliding in/out and if there is any hesitation, stone it again. Even if I "ruin" it, it will be a good learning experience. and what I have in mind will not, I don't believe, ruin it. In fact, just the opposite...

Last edited by 3/4Flap; 02-22-2012 at 07:38..
3/4Flap is offline  
Old 02-22-2012, 08:27   #80
Topknot
Member
 
Topknot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MO
Posts: 64
Some pictures would be great.
__________________
Topknot
G19c, Gen III
Topknot is offline  

 
  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:06.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 988
280 Members
708 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31