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Old 02-22-2012, 09:14   #81
3/4Flap
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Sorry Topknot. I just pulled the thing apart again and worked on it some more. wish I saw your post before I was done.

OK:

This time I allowed the feel of the extractor to be the guide. First, I put my finger in the slide and moved the extractor back and forth. It is better than it was originally but I could still feel very definite hanging up at several points thru its arch.

I removed the extractor and sure enough, I could see where my previous polishing is, but also see that there were still ridges. Like I said, the first time I polished the sides I was very careful. I wish I know what is the specification dimension of the part, but I do not.

However; IMO only one of two options exist;

EITHER;

1} The ridges are in-spec, which means the main body of the extractor is OUT of spec.

OR;

2} The main body of the extractor is in-spec and the ridges are OUT of spec.

Folks, BOTH cannot be within specification for the part.

So, with a "what the hell", I stoned the sides smooth of almost all the ridges. There are only faint lines now in a couple spots. Ridges are gone.

And guess what...

Upon reassembly, SO ARE THE HESITATIONS OF MOVEMENT ALONG THE ARCH OF TRAVEL.

Look, I would expect a moving part to move smoothly. Mine didn't at all. Now it does, with only the faintest of ultra-slight hesitation occuring which upon oiling goes away. I suspect if I eliminated those faint ridges I'd eliminate even the last of the slight hesitation.

Whatever I did to function {I don't know yet, haven't shot it} I know I removed the grinding feeling of the extractor travel.

I have a HUNCH that this cannot be a bad thing. Shooting will prove it.

Last edited by 3/4Flap; 02-22-2012 at 09:18..
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Old 02-22-2012, 09:44   #82
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Very good info here in this thread! It looks like you guys found the cure. Good job!

I also noticed that the extractor of my newly made G23 gen4 moves completely different in it's slot than in my "older" gen4's. The extractor of the new one moves nice and free when I move it with my fingers. That was not the case with my older gen4's, there was lot's of binding and empty's to the head before I exchanged the extractors.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:00   #83
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Just checked with 6 shots using the right-hand grip that usually produces the worst results. Also only loaded 3 per mag as the last few are usually the worst performers.

3 rounds of PMC 115 FMJ, 3 rounds of RWS 124 FMJ.

Results; ALL ejected cases landed between 3 and 4 O'Clock TO MY RIGHT virtually in the same place as they land when I shoot the gun LEFT-handed!

OK, I know these last 6 rounds are not the final word, but I'm calling it THE {tentative} FIX.

Period.

Look, unless Glock has truly fixed the binding issue, just getting new extractors is not necessarily EVER going to help. The binding in the extractor slot must be eliminated.

OH...and my gun has the 336 ejector, too.

Now, since Gen 4 guns suck and are total pieces of crap, I'm wondering if anyone has a bad-ejecting Gen 4 9x19 they'd like to sell cheap. I'll be glad to talk. I mean, seriously, your gun is garbage. :D

Last edited by 3/4Flap; 02-22-2012 at 19:47.. Reason: thanks ithaca deerslayer, I screwed up. typo.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:10   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3/4Flap View Post
Just checked with 6 shots using the right-hand grip that usually produces the worst results. Also only loaded 3 per mag as the last few are usually the worst performers.

3 rounds of PMC 115 FMJ, 3 rounds of RWS 124 FMJ.

Results; ALL ejected cases landed between 3 and 4 O'Clock TO MY RIGHT virtually in the same place as they land when I shoot the gun LEFT-handed!

OK, I know these last 6 rounds are not the final word, but I'm calling it THE {tentative} FIX.

Period.

Look, unless Glock has truly fixed the binding issue, just getting new extractors is not necessarily EVER going to help. The binding in the ejector slot must be eliminated.

OH...and my gun has the 336 ejector, too.

Now, since Gen 4 guns suck and are total pieces of crap, I'm wondering if anyone has a bad-ejecting Gen 4 9x19 they'd like to sell cheap. I'll be glad to talk. I mean, seriously, your gun is garbage. :D
LOL. Nice try.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:29   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3/4Flap View Post
Not sure why I did not post this originally, but;

I had a heck of a time getting the EXTRACTOR out of the slide.

I mean, it was a real pain. It would not lift or pry out. There was obvious tension or almost grittiness about the seat. Yes, there was some dirt present but nothing overwhelming. I finally resorted to banging the slide sideways on a book laid on a stout table.

Once out, I cleaned it and tried its seat inside the slide and it was still hanging up, "gritty" so-to-speak.

After stoning, the extractor slid more easily inside the slide.

Now, I just looked at a pic that Butch posted of old and new parts and my extractor appears to have more pronounced mold ridges'flashing than even his "new" part. His "old" part is of course, basically smooth.

Now, for those who warn against modifying an extractor for fear of reduction of service life, I again ask the opposite question;

Which is this;

Should we not also be concerned about haphazard placement of the extractor on the case head that may be the result of the extractor hanging up on the slide as it moves back and forth. True, the extractor is a hardened part and the case head/rim/groove base is much softer, BUT the grit that develops inside the gun from shooting, etc, over time may form a lap of sorts and wear the point of the extractor or the slide internal bearing surfaces or alter some other portion of the mating surfaces as applied by the case head or the extractor/slide bearing parts.

No, I want nothing to do with a part that has obvious excess flashing, sticks in the slide and doesn't move freely. None of those conditions can do anything positive for short or longterm functioning reliability.

Now, WHY did the gun work well at the beginning and lose efficiency over time?

I cannot say for sure, and naturally hope that it is not because some serious harm was caused to the groove in the slide, but I wonder if a slight amount of grit is all that is necessary to inhibit free movement of the extractor due to ridges on the extractor. It does look like the extractor has been redesigned to allow fouling buildup inside the relieved area. But such fixes don't always work as they should if they are offset by some other factor.

I'm going to remove mine again, check for free sliding in/out and if there is any hesitation, stone it again. Even if I "ruin" it, it will be a good learning experience. and what I have in mind will not, I don't believe, ruin it. In fact, just the opposite...
I did the same thing, polished the top and bottom extractor ridges down until they were somewhat smooth and faint, and it solved my straight-back-ejection issues.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:42   #86
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OK, just back from the range.

Took two 17's with me, the one I fiddled with the extractor, and a 17 RTF I use in my carry rotation for something to compare (and just in case the other was a total flop ).

Ammo was 300 rounds of my reloads and a 100 round value pack of Winchester white box.

I shot 150 rounds of my reloads out of the 17 with the cleaned up extractor, and got 8 cases to my face and head. The brass that did eject clear, did seem to fall in a more regular pattern on the ground though.

Shot 150 rounds of reloads out of the RTF, and had 2 to the head.

I then shot the whole 100 rounds of WWB out of the gun with the cleaned up extractor, and it didnt miss a beat. Not one case even close to my head, and all cases went basically in the same general area on the ground as the first lot.

Typically with this gun and that extractor, what I was seeing today as far as getting bonked with brass, was about what I was seeing just before I changed it out the first time. After the change to the second, new extractor, things have been a little better, maybe around half of what I had today in the same number of rounds, but I still get them. The factory ammo running without a blip is what Ive had all along, or at least as best as I can remember. I really dont shoot all that much factory, so its probably really not a fair comparison, but I dont seem to have the issue when I do shoot factory.

One thing too with the reloads, theres no real pattern or regularity as to the number of cases to the face. Sometimes I get a bunch to the face, other times, hardly any, and even none. Usually its at least a couple though. I think its all just a matter of how far along the brass is in the process, how bad the rim is chewed up, and how the extractor happens to grab it at the time. Its also not like I have numbered cases with a documented history to tell me which one is doing what and why. All I know is, it mostly, if not always, seems to only happen with my reloads, and seems to get progressively worse, as that lot gets older.

What I think Im going to do is, put the "newer" extractor back in, after I clean it up a little, and see how that goes. Im not really expecting a change in whats been going on, but hey, you never know. If it does change, then I get to drive myself even more crazy trying to figure out why.
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Old 02-22-2012, 10:58   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3/4Flap View Post
First, I am not "passionate" about anything other than God my Savior Jesus Christ, my family and my country.

"Glock" is a darn tool that's broke and I don't feel like going thru the motions of selling it in order to buy a Smith M&P that has some other cockamamey problem. I am a magnet for gun warts.

So a fix that takes me ten minutes seems to be a no brainer if it actually results in "Glock Perfection".

Second, Glocks of the past were well-known to eject all their fired cases in a hat thrown on the ground. They still do but now the shooter has to wear the hat.

CCI: all of what you say is true, but look, if the gun can be made to work with all ammo, what's not to love?

As for the point about reloaded ammo, well, yes, in any automatic gun mechanism the tendency is to experience more and more failures to function as cases are reloaded. Case dimensions DO change and case heads expand over time. Try reloading for a Remington 742...you get three or four loadings and the gun jams. I hate those guns!

Semiauto cases WILL have a "life expectancy" not necessarily due to actual case failure, but due to dimensional changes of the case head and the inability of the sizing die to reach the entire head due to the position of the case holder. Nature of the beast.

As for the "philosophy" of discussion that these things tend to foster, well, I really don't care whether Glock should have, didn't, might, is worse or better for not making the perfect pistol in the world. What I care about is getting my guns to work 100%. If they don't do it, I will, or find a way, or get rid of the gun.

I don't shoot philosophy, I shoot guns.
My kind of Guy. If ever shtf, 3/4 is the kind of person I want next to me.
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Old 02-22-2012, 11:32   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ak103k View Post
OK, The factory ammo running without a blip is what Ive had all along, or at least as best as I can remember.

First, thanks jw. I appreciate that.

AK: THANKS for reporting.

This issue is a bu-bear, isn't it?

My gun hits me in the face or along my right arm RIGHT HANDED ONLY with every type of FACTORY ammo I've tried.

Far less so since I did the initial cleanup.

Now, just a moment ago I pulled the slide off my G19 which is a 2010 made gun. The extractor moves smoothly and I have had no problems with this gun yet.

I may try to shoot some more today and see what the second go-round did for my G17.
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Old 02-22-2012, 14:08   #89
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I'm going to give a very simple answer and the rationale behind it at this point. Undoubtedly some of you already know this but for those who don't I believe this information will be useful. When polishing the top and bottom of the extractor you absolutely need a very flat hard Arkansas stone and just a bit of honing oil. Take the extractor in your hand and add a small amont of honing oil to the face of the stone and lay the top of the extractor flat on the stone and move it from side to side on the stone. Stop occassionaly and look at your work. When 50% to 60% of the side is shiny you can stop. The shiny portion is now your bearing surface and the remainder is slightly recessed and will touch nothing. Now turn the extractor over and do the same to the bottom of it. When finished degrease the extractor and slightly oil it and put it back in the pistol. When you pivot it now it should feel smooth as a babies behind. For those who shoot reloads as I do, you must look at the part and realize where it sits against the pistol when pivoted in completely. This is what limits how far in it can pivot. Remove a very small amount of material from the portion of the extractor that hits the slide and stops the pivoting motion. By removing a very small amount you are allowing the extractor to move in just a little farther to allow for brass wear. While doing this also examine the hook of the extractor and see how flat it lies on the face of the case. If only the very tip touches the case and the rest is very slightly raised above the case, then you must do some very careful polishing on the hook to allow it to lie flat on the case when pivoted in fully. This gives more consistent retention of the case head by the extractor. This will yield more consistent ejection. As Forrest Gump said, "now that's all I'm going to say about that".

Last edited by Dave Nowlin; 02-22-2012 at 14:10..
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Old 02-22-2012, 17:03   #90
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how can you differ the newer gen.4 extractor from the older gen.4 extractor?

i mean gen. 4 isn't old itself and has 2 different extractors and 2 different ejectors till now.
the ejectors have different numbers, okay, but what about the exctractors?
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Old 02-22-2012, 17:17   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dusty_dragon View Post
how can you differ the newer gen.4 extractor from the older gen.4 extractor?

i mean gen. 4 isn't old itself and has 2 different extractors and 2 different ejectors till now.
the ejectors have different numbers, okay, but what about the exctractors?
The older ones don't work.

The newer ones don't work well.



Actually, a good question.
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Old 02-22-2012, 17:31   #92
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Dave just a quick question, dose your gun have the dull gray finish on the slide or the shiny black finish? I was thinking last night after reading this thread that the grey finish is a little rougher and could hinder the extractor movement, the older black finish is slicker. Most of the newer guns have the grey finish, this could be a minor factor
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Old 02-22-2012, 17:53   #93
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The finish on my slide is gray and somewhat grainy looking when you examine it closely. In fact when I was working on the trigger in my G30SF I noticed that the slide stop lever had a very rough finish on it. So rough that it didn't move as freely as I thought it should. I took my Dremel and some polishing compound to the portion close to where the frame pin goes through. I didn't remove any finish from the portion you see when it is installed on the pistol. The oxide finish doesn't seem to be done well on the small parts of these pistols.
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Old 02-22-2012, 18:43   #94
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OK Guys - I grew up with the saying, the proof is in the pudding. I think the "proof" is in now. I just got back from the indoor range that I shoot at every few days. Did something different today. Left my football helmet and goggles in the bag. Set out my 19 with 100 rounds of 115 fmj and a box of 50 rounds of 124 jhp. Set out my 27 with a box of 50, 180 jhp. Out of 200 rounds between the two Glocks, not the first case on my head, chest, chin or anywhere other than a nice pile in the floor. Granted in a small indoor booth, cases can bounce around some. NOT THIS TIME. My 19 & 27 were flawless! Like an earlier op said - somebody needs to be billing Glock for this information. May I suggest that 3/4 & Dave send an invoice on to Gaston for this repair shown on Glock Talk. Thanks Fellows - Whoever would have thought something so simple would be a cure for such a big problem.
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Old 02-22-2012, 18:55   #95
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And the bashful little fellow with the red face who wasn't really looking for praise bows and says "Thank you".
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Old 02-22-2012, 19:03   #96
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I fail to understand what effect removing material from the extractor's inner shoulder does for better ejection.

I know it lets the hook move closer to the center but a cartridge in place holds the extractor away from the center even before material is removed.

It seems to me that the extractor shoulder has no effect at all with a cartridge in place.

Last edited by ken grant; 02-22-2012 at 19:04..
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Old 02-22-2012, 19:14   #97
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i beg to differ with you Ken. On my G30SF the extractor didn't pivot in far enough for a reliable hold. It does now. The other point is when more travel is possible then the extractor can grip reloads better as the case head wears. As the extractor pivots inward more it also pivots closer to the breech face.

I promise I don't wish to argue with anyone about this. I'm just sharing my experiences as is Mr.Flap. We are sharing our experiences in the hope that they will help others with the same problem.
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Old 02-22-2012, 19:21   #98
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I don't argue but just don't understand how the inner shoulder comes into play with a cartridge in place. In all my Glocks, the cartridge make the extractor move outward and the shoulder doesn't touch anything.

Whoops!!!! I may have figured it out.
As the barrel unlocks and drops down, the case moves down the breechface and extractor as well.
Maybe at this point the extractor shoulder bottoms out and stops any farther inward movement.

Last edited by ken grant; 02-22-2012 at 19:29..
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Old 02-22-2012, 19:24   #99
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Great news, jw!

HAHAHA!!!

The whole thing is really quite hilarious, isn't it!??

How many "experts" even here screamed "LIMPWRIST!!!" and "AMMO!!!" as the cause of "non-existent" Glock problems?

Truth is always better than fiction and YOU JUST CAN'T MAKE THIS STUFF UP!!!

Tomorrow is my turn for another go-round. Will report.

The ABSOLUTE GLOCK TORTURE TEST;

"SHOOTING WITH THE RIGHT HAND ONLY."

Good heavens, what's next...dragging it behind a truck?
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Old 02-22-2012, 19:27   #100
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I polished my extractor last night after reading this thread.

Previously, I had about 2/10 (20%) of the casings come back and hit my head or the top of my head. After the polish to remove the "lip" or cast mark on the top of the extractor, I had great results.

As of 45 minutes ago, I finished firing a string of 350 rounds. Ammo that I shot were Speer 115gr Lawman, Winchester 147gr Ranger-T, and Winchester 147gr Super-X. Out of that string of fire, I only had 3 or 4 casings come back and hit my head. I consider this a MAJOR improvement.

Granted, I only removed material "polish" the top side of the extractor. I did not remove any material on the underside nor from the "shelf" or "shoulder" area. I will further test with those areas polished this weekend.

It is gratifying that my Generation 3 Glock 19 has made such improvements. I was pretty excited that I could fire magazine after magazine without HOT casings coming back to my face.

I will report back when I have polished the other areas of the extractor and fire another few hundred rounds.

A Happier Glock Customer,
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