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Old 02-19-2012, 19:25   #1
john31125
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why are leos who carry h&ks issued lem?

just new to hk wondering why leos dont carry da/sa and need lem?
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Old 02-19-2012, 19:31   #2
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Some agencies require certain types of triggers or trigger pull weights. My agency requires glocks with the 8# NY trigger. Pretty much used as a CYA against negligent discharges and such, even though it has nothing to do with the trigger and everything to do with training and common sense.
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Old 02-19-2012, 20:51   #3
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Memphis PD used to use SW DAO, now they use Sig, so there is something to wanting a heavy trigger. But when they are in a shooting, there is a lot of lead in the air.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:31   #4
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almost universally now large agencies (cities counties state fed) will dictate what features the duty gun must have -things like minimum accuracy requirements trigger pull weights mag capacity etc.
the gun companies provide samples of guns which meet these specifications.
the agency picks the gun based on performance and price.
whatever gun meets the demands put forth and is cheapest gets the bid.
in many areas, especially federal agencies if one agency (just an example CBP) adopts/approves a specific gun, other agencies can simply add to the order of the same model. This is why you see alot of fed agencies carrying the same gun.
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:34   #5
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most agencies in this day and age want a trigger that requires a similar pull for each shot, unlike da/sa that go to a shorter lighter pull after the first shot. They also tend to demand a heavier than standard trigger, to minimize negligent discharges whe cops are under stress. (yes I agree this is a training issue but most agencies won't spend the time to train to the level needed for lighter triggers)
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:44   #6
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People can talk about how it's a training issue and all that but the fact is there are still a lot of unintended discharges. They happen. Heavy and long and consistent triggers help reduce those.

I would guess the number of LE carrying traditional DA/SA is probably < 10% at this point. Of course most of that is due to the overwhelming preponderance of Glocks.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 02-20-2012 at 09:45..
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Old 02-20-2012, 09:54   #7
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wouldnt da/sa greatly reduce the chance for a nd/ad though? Especially one with a decoker...I mean, with those they are able to have a VERY heavy first trigger, in a lot of cases with the DAs I have seen I think it would be almost impossible to pull the trigger with the hammer down unless you mean to. Then, you would also have the much lighter pull once it is in use, meaning more accurate shots, and possibly less shots needed to get the job done if the need be. In my mind, it seems to be the best of both worlds. But I can understand wanting to have similar pulls each time I guess.
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Old 02-20-2012, 10:11   #8
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Cause lawyers instead of gun guys pick the guns.

I hate the competitor (SIG DAK) they talk about the advantages of consistency but when theres 2 resets, one heavier than the standard pull, how is that consisteny?
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Old 02-21-2012, 08:26   #9
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The relatively heavy first pull of the LEM would tend to make it a bit more ND/AD resistant, so it would be less of a liability concern. The short reset really lends itself to accurate follow up shots.

I don't think an LEM HK will ever have the first-hit potential of the 1911, but my agency doesn't give the choice.
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Old 02-21-2012, 10:07   #10
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Quote:
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wouldnt da/sa greatly reduce the chance for a nd/ad though? Especially one with a decoker...
Yes, but it requires the user to remember to decock the gun. Those that aren't gun people may easily forget to do so before holstering.

Then there was the incident when the one cop tried to manually lower her hammer and almost shot another cop and / or suspect. TV / Movies don't help the less informed. John McClain and Jack Bauer (pre-HK) seem to always manually decock their guns.
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Old 02-21-2012, 16:32   #11
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I studied movement science, among other things. The heavier the trigger, the more force required to pull, the more force exerted by a muscle, the more variability in it's movement, the more variability, the more errors. An error here = accidental discharge under stress.

Heavier trigger DOES NOT EQUAL safer gun .

Simple demo: Hold a very light shot glass full to the rim of water, hold it still, don't spill any.

The hold a pot of water, to the brim, and try not to spill any.

Heavy = more strength used = shaking = spill. Or kaboom in this case...

Last edited by Aceman; 02-21-2012 at 16:34..
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Old 02-21-2012, 19:47   #12
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I saw that vid of the female cop that almost shot the handcuffed suspect on the ground. After thorough viewing/ intense scrutiny/ and careful analysis, my scientific conclusion is that she pulled the trigger. It wouldnt have mattered if a 3 lb or 12 lb trigger, pulling is pulling. If she didnt want to pull the trigger, she shouldnt have had her finger on it.

Pulling the trigger is pulling the trigger, regardless of lbs. IMO, the only way in which Glocks are more faulty than other guns for ND's is during reholster -- and even that is debateable to some (Im on the fence with this one).

If Glock ever provides the option for a grip safety, I'll be the first in line. Also IMO, this is where the XD/ M line has it right.

Eidt: I'll also be the first to say that the right holster matters. I'd carry my Kel Tec P11 Mexican style if needed, but wouldnt even consider doing this with a Glock.

Last edited by cfr; 02-21-2012 at 19:50..
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Old 02-21-2012, 20:32   #13
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Quote:
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I saw that vid of the female cop that almost shot the handcuffed suspect on the ground. After thorough viewing/ intense scrutiny/ and careful analysis, my scientific conclusion is that she pulled the trigger. It wouldnt have mattered if a 3 lb or 12 lb trigger, pulling is pulling. If she didnt want to pull the trigger, she shouldnt have had her finger on it.

Pulling the trigger is pulling the trigger, regardless of lbs. IMO, the only way in which Glocks are more faulty than other guns for ND's is during reholster -- and even that is debateable to some (Im on the fence with this one).

If Glock ever provides the option for a grip safety, I'll be the first in line. Also IMO, this is where the XD/ M line has it right.

Eidt: I'll also be the first to say that the right holster matters. I'd carry my Kel Tec P11 Mexican style if needed, but wouldnt even consider doing this with a Glock.



How would a grip safety have prevented her from pulling ther trigger???
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Old 02-21-2012, 20:51   #14
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How would a grip safety have prevented her from pulling ther trigger???

It wouldnt have, but it would help mitigate ND's while reholstering.
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Old 02-21-2012, 21:13   #15
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It wouldnt have, but it would help mitigate ND's while reholstering.

Don't you usually have your hand on the grip when you reholster?
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Old 02-21-2012, 23:05   #16
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Don't you usually have your hand on the grip when you reholster?
No, I use my foot.

Yes, but I'd likely modify that grip while reholstering if I had a grip safety.
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Old 02-21-2012, 23:49   #17
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just new to hk wondering why leos dont carry da/sa and need lem?
Because Glock's department price is less than $360.00 per gun with 3 magazines and as many free armouer slots as the department wants.
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Old 02-22-2012, 06:55   #18
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Quote:
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Don't you usually have your hand on the grip when you reholster?
My Reholster technique is strong hand thumb on the back of the slide while holstering.

GLOCK & M&P: Prevents the slide from moving rearward due to the friction of the holster.

Hammer guns (non cocked and locked, included LEM) - thumb on back of hammer: Also prevents hammer from moving, thus prevents a discharge should something catch the trigger during the reholster.

XD: Keeps from deactivating the grip safety helping to prevent a discharge should something catch the trigger.

Another thing this technique does, is gets your hand out of the way, between the gun and body. Many IWB holsters keep the gun in tight (that is there job), so not a lot of room between the gun and body. YMMV.

Last edited by BuckyP; 02-22-2012 at 06:56..
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Old 02-22-2012, 07:31   #19
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Because LEM stands for Law Enforcement Modification.
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