GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-09-2012, 09:15   #1
TBO
CLM Number 122
Why so serious?
 
TBO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: NRA Life Member
Posts: 43,579
Blog Entries: 1


Trayvon Martin's Family Calls For Arrest Of Man Who Confessed To Shooting

Trayvon Martin's Family Calls For Arrest Of Man Who Police Say Confessed To Shooting

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1332756.html
TBO is offline  
Old 03-09-2012, 17:54   #2
wjv
Senior Member
 
wjv's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Pacific NW
Posts: 12,243
Even considering the source (HuffPo) it sounds like a questionable shooting. Unless the 17 year old went wack-a-doodle and started assaulting the "block captain" or what ever his title is. Gut feeling is that was not the case, but rather you had a young guy who wanted to play cop.

Like I said, just a gut feeling. Could be wrong. Too bad that there weren't any witnesses.

Problem with cases like these is that they both had an equal right to be walking on that block. But both seemed upset that the other one was there.

This is a perfect example of MYOB. . Especially when carrying a gun.
__________________
Bill
Pacific NW


The urge to save humanity is almost always a false-face for the urge to rule it.
- H. L. Mencken -

Last edited by wjv; 03-09-2012 at 17:55..
wjv is offline  
Old 03-09-2012, 18:22   #3
ballr4lyf
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 412
I can't find any other news stories about this that says anything differently than what was posted. That being the case, it really sounds like a REALLY bad shoot. If it is determined to be so, lock the wanna-be Dirty Harry up!
ballr4lyf is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 04:04   #4
blackjack
Senior Member
 
blackjack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Sand Springs OK
Posts: 2,171
Quote:
Originally Posted by ballr4lyf View Post
I can't find any other news stories about this that says anything differently than what was posted. That being the case, it really sounds like a REALLY bad shoot. If it is determined to be so, lock the wanna-be Dirty Harry up!
Left out of the Huff-n-Puff's account by the "writer":

Quote:
The report said that Zimmerman’s back was wet and he was covered in grass as if he had been on the ground. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of the head, the report said.
From:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...SzR_story.html

IMNSHO, referring to anything on the HuffPo as a "news story" is a significant stretch. The writer had an obvious point of view and was not impartial in any way, shape, or form.

Also discussed here:

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/show....php?t=1407217
blackjack is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 05:18   #5
FL Airedale
Dog Breath
 
FL Airedale's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: In the sticks
Posts: 1,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjack View Post
The report said that Zimmerman’s back was wet and he was covered in grass as if he had been on the ground. He was bleeding from his nose and the back of the head, the report said.
That's an extremely important part of this story.

The "captain" still made a bad decision by ignoring the dispatcher's advice. Just because one is armed is no reason to go looking for trouble.

He saw what he considered suspicious and did the right thing by calling police. It is their job to deal with these matters and they are trained to do it.

The only way he should have gotten further involved is if someone's life was in imminent danger.
__________________
Life Member - NRA, GOA, Florida Carry, Inc.
I used to be a people person but people ruined that for me.
FL Airedale is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 05:55   #6
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
My prayers to the family. I can only imagine what it would be like to deal with the loss of one’s child. I too would want answers. I’m afraid the entire truth will never be learned by those involved though.

.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 07:23   #7
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,609
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackjack View Post
Sanford Police Chief Bill Lee:
  • There is some physical evidence and some testimony that would corroborate some of that story

  • The 911 tapes haven’t been released because it has critical information and detectives don’t want it to influence the testimony of prospective witnesses

  • residents upset by the lack of an arrest so far should wait until the investigation is completed, as soon as next week.

  • The State Attorney’s Office will then decide whether to present it to a grand jury.

  • “I understand the emotions and the response from the community ... based on the limited information they have,” Lee said.

  • “We just hope they would allow us the time to conduct a thorough and fair investigation.”
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 07:57   #8
Mr. Blandings
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 2,187
Here's another story -

http://abcnews.go.com/US/florida-fam...1#.T1trSIEgd2B
__________________
Alumnus:
Massad Ayoob, Calibre Press, GLOCK, Southern Exposure Training Center, Randy Cain, Andy Stanford, ASP, Modern Combative Systems, National Rifle Association.
Mr. Blandings is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 08:13   #9
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,609
Blog Entries: 64
This is from the subdivision's February 2012 Newsletter:
Neighborhood Watch
The Sanford PD has announced an increased patrol within our neighborhood. In addition to the extramarked patrols, Sanford PD has initiated random bike patrols of both the front and back yards of our community and random unmarked vehicle patrols with increased patrolling during peak crime hours.If you’ve been the victim of a crime within the community, after calling the police, please email us at:RTLNeighborhoodWatch@gmail.com, so we can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.

The Neighborhood Watch is looking for additional members to participate and become a block captains. We are open to all residents. Meetings are held the third Tuesday of each month at 6:30PM inthe clubhouse, 30 minutes prior to the scheduled HOA Board meetings. Please keep your eyes open.If you see something suspicious or out of place, report it! You can make an anonymous call to theSanford PD Non-emergency # 407-688-5199 or 911 and help keep our community safe. Email us at:RTLNeighborhoodWatch@gmail.com for more information.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/84398084/R...012-Newsletter
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 09:01   #10
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,396
I would hate to be that guy, and plan on avoiding questionable situations, as well as escalating them. Pretty much the opposite of what this guys plan seemed to be.

So which is it, did the guy have a squeaky clean record, or was he arrested for resisting and battery on an officer? (the shooter) Charges were dropped, would like some background on that incident before passing judgement.

Did he confront an off duty cop in the same sub and start an altercation with him too?

Randy
steveksux is online now  
Old 03-10-2012, 09:05   #11
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,396
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...307542&sk=infoLooks like you have the wrong Trayvon Martin. Must be a common name...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyT View Post
Why are they using slide shows of childhood pictures? Oh right, momma's sweet honor roll student.

How bout an up to date picture from Trayvon's own facebook page?

[IMG]Quoted Image Deleted - Inappropriate Content[/IMG]
Randy

Last edited by RussP; 03-10-2012 at 09:54..
steveksux is online now  
Old 03-10-2012, 09:57   #12
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,609
Blog Entries: 64
Folks, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, before posting, verify your information.

Yeah, I know, it takes time, it's a whole lot of trouble.

Just do it.

Thanks!!
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 10:25   #13
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,396
Desire to be a hero can be a powerful motivator. Thing is, cops have better options, quite a few more non-lethal options to go to, they have backup, they have reinforcements, they have training and experience. They have much better legal and civil liability protections when mistakes are made, and when they are not.

Its all to easy to find yourself confronted with nails if all you have is a hammer. Avoidance is a lot less sexy, it doesn't soothe the ego. Smart things are often less sexy than stupid for some reason.

Observe and report. Stay out of it unless you have to. Really have to. Not "ooh this is my chance to play a cop" have to.

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 03-10-2012 at 10:29..
steveksux is online now  
Old 03-10-2012, 11:37   #14
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,609
Blog Entries: 64
The term, "Gated Community" has been used many times in the stories. "Gated Community" implies secure, limited access, right? Well, maybe not...

The gates at Retreat at Twin Lakes control vehicular traffic. The walls along South Oregon Ave, the east boundary, and Oregon Ave, the north boundary and the route Martin probably used to get to and from the 7-11, do impede pedestrian traffic. HOWEVER, the Oregon Ave wall ends 390 feet west of the north access gate to the community. It is open pedestrian access at that point. (Use Google Earth, search for Retreat View Circle, Sandford, Fl.)

It's possible Martin used the northwest corner of the property to go to and from the 7-11. When he returned, Zimmerman might have witnessed him coming onto the property from between buildings.

Add in this element:
Quote:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/0...dade-teen.html

It was reported on March 9 that Police Chief Lee said the neighborhood watch, which works directly with police, started two months ago after the community was hit with several property crimes. Zimmerman was the leader.
In the same article this is reported:
Quote:
  • Martin lived with his mother in Miami

  • He was a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School.

  • He was in the middle of serving a one-week suspension from the school.

  • His father, Tracy Martin, didn't discuss his son’s suspension

  • He said he took Trayvon to Sandford “to disconnect and get his priorities straight.”
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921

Last edited by RussP; 03-10-2012 at 11:39..
RussP is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 12:13   #15
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 33,430
Quote:
Originally Posted by FL Airedale View Post
That's an extremely important part of this story.
Yeah...if you write for Huffington Post, that's the part it's important to leave out.
__________________
Open carry activists are to gun rights what the Westboro Baptist Church is to free speech.
Bren is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 12:57   #16
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,609
Blog Entries: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveksux View Post
I would hate to be that guy, and plan on avoiding questionable situations, as well as escalating them. Pretty much the opposite of what this guys plan seemed to be.

So which is it, did the guy have a squeaky clean record, or was he arrested for resisting and battery on an officer? (the shooter) Charges were dropped, would like some background on that incident before passing judgement.

Did he confront an off duty cop in the same sub and start an altercation with him too?

Randy
That was back in 2005.
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 13:00   #17
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,609
Blog Entries: 64
Tracy Martin said that when he asked police why Zimmerman hadn't been charged, officers told him "they respected [Zimmerman's] background, that he studied criminal justice for four years and that he was squeaky clean."
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 13:10   #18
RussP
Moderator
 
RussP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 42,609
Blog Entries: 64
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1332756.html
Chief Lee:
  • By Zimmerman's account, he followed Martin to get an address to give police.

  • Zimmerman was trying to keep Martin in eyesight.

  • Zimmerman told the police that Martin noticed that he was being followed and asked, “what’s your problem?”

  • That's when a physical confrontation ensued.

  • Moments later, Martin was shot.
This occurred at night during halftime of the NBA All Star Game. Did Zimmerman have his headlights on or off while following Martin?
__________________
Freedom has a taste to those who fight and almost die, that the protected will never know.

"Comment is free, but facts are sacred." C.P. Scott, 1921
RussP is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 13:15   #19
Misty02
Senior Member
 
Misty02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
The term, "Gated Community" has been used many times in the stories. "Gated Community" implies secure, limited access, right? Well, maybe not...

The gates at Retreat at Twin Lakes control vehicular traffic. The walls along South Oregon Ave, the east boundary, and Oregon Ave, the north boundary and the route Martin probably used to get to and from the 7-11, do impede pedestrian traffic. HOWEVER, the Oregon Ave wall ends 390 feet west of the north access gate to the community. It is open pedestrian access at that point. (Use Google Earth, search for Retreat View Circle, Sandford, Fl.)

It's possible Martin used the northwest corner of the property to go to and from the 7-11. When he returned, Zimmerman might have witnessed him coming onto the property from between buildings.

Add in this element:In the same article this is reported:
In addition to all that, kids do some unnecessary and stupid things at times, especially boys. One of mine got a pretty nasty gash on the back of his thigh (right underneath his buttocks) when he miscalculated the height of our chain linked fence (the top ends on metal open V). As his brother was explaining how he had to pull him off the fence and he heard the short tear right before all the blood started pouring out, the only question I had of them “why did you jump the fence? The gate door was open!” Their response? “Oh, we just wanted to see if we could jump it!” (or something to that effect)

They were 11 and 8 at the time; the little one was the one bleeding all over the place. For a second, I considered letting him bleed out for doing something so stupid. Yes, they still do stupid things ever so often in spite being in their 20’s. Like the night they decided to dress with all their gear to practice (their name, mine is play) exterior home defense and protection. My only comment being “if a neighbor calls the police because they believe something suspicious is going on, they come here and arrest you…. don’t expect me to open the door and say I know who you are and don’t waste your only phone call in calling me!” (just in case, they told the 3 or 4 closest neighbor what they were going to do).

At 17 you should have some sense (maybe), but a boy is still likely to think about jumping that fence, just to see if he can. Possible evidence to that effect is that at least one of the stories I’ve read mentioned he had the skittles and the ice tea in his pocket. Why would anyone put ice tea in their pocket unless they needed their hands free?

I have no clue what actually happened there, or who was the original aggressor, but I wouldn’t discount the possibility of a boy doing something really stupid that was completely misinterpreted by someone else observing.


.
__________________


"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them." - Sun Tzu

Outpost Member #69
Misty02 is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 13:22   #20
ATW525
Senior Member
 
ATW525's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 358
My initial reaction is that the shooter is a wannabe cop loser who went too far and ended up gunning down an innocent man. On further reflection, however, getting out of the car and "playing cop", while stupid, didn't automatically negate Zimmerman's right to self defense. So, depending on how things actually played out, I suppose it's entirely possible that the shooting was justified.

That said, even if he dodges criminal charges, I would not want to be in his shoes in civil court.
ATW525 is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 15:18   #21
m2hmghb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Livin in the country of NJ
Posts: 12,215


Quote:
Originally Posted by ATW525 View Post
My initial reaction is that the shooter is a wannabe cop loser who went too far and ended up gunning down an innocent man. On further reflection, however, getting out of the car and "playing cop", while stupid, didn't automatically negate Zimmerman's right to self defense. So, depending on how things actually played out, I suppose it's entirely possible that the shooting was justified.

That said, even if he dodges criminal charges, I would not want to be in his shoes in civil court.
If he dodges charges criminally he will be fine in civil court. If they determine there is no crime committed that automatically nullifies a civil case. Welcome to Florida.
__________________
Here's a toast to our wives and to the women we loved. <pause> May they never meet.

The M1 Garand rifle is the best battle implement ever devised by man.
m2hmghb is offline  
Old 03-10-2012, 22:40   #22
jack76590
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 2,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by ATW525 View Post
My initial reaction is that the shooter is a wannabe cop loser who went too far and ended up gunning down an innocent man. On further reflection, however, getting out of the car and "playing cop", while stupid, didn't automatically negate Zimmerman's right to self defense. So, depending on how things actually played out, I suppose it's entirely possible that the shooting was justified.

That said, even if he dodges criminal charges, I would not want to be in his shoes in civil court.
Well Zimmerman has a right to self defense, but so did Martin. Let us say Zimmerman laid hands on Martin, because he found Martin suspicious, but with no concrete evidence Martin was about to commit a crime, such as carrying a can of gasoline and threatening to set houses on fire.

If you were Martin in this situation would you feel you had a right to fight the person who laid hands on you? Now it seems Martin was a real tiger for his size. I have heard he was under 150 pounds. Now you have to ask yourself if Zimmerman who for sake of argument laid hands on Martin and is now to his surprise losing the fight has a right to shoot Martin.

I have also read Zimmerman was in a vehicle and could have just driven away and waited until police arrived. But Zimmerman chose to get out and play policeman, when at least by all accounts so far, Martin was posing no immediate threat or maybe no threat period. And again a real policeman was on the way.

I think we have to place ourselves in Martin' shoes. How would you feel if a NON police officer followed you in a vehicle, when you were not breaking the law. The person got out and a fight began, you were winning, so the aggressor who had been following you now decided to shoot you.

If Zimmerman is a struggling student, I doubt if he has assets that would justify a civil suit. As in his net worth is less than the cost of an attorney to bring suit. A civil suit should be well down Zimmermans list of concerns.

Last edited by jack76590; 03-10-2012 at 22:45..
jack76590 is offline  
Old 03-11-2012, 06:49   #23
Bren
NRA Life Member
 
Bren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 33,430
Reading the additional information in this thread - the Huffington articles still suck, but sounds like the shooter was the typical nut I expect to find on a neighborhood watch. I'd expect an arrest (although Florida sometimes surprises me, by letting shooters walk no matter how questionable the justification).

Pretty much anything that involves cooperation and organization of a suburban neighborhood is just a hobby for geeks and busybodies - for a "watch" multiply that by 10. I prefer to let everybody in my neighborhood take care of themselves - especially including me.

When I lived near there, Sanford was a country town best know for its awesome flea market. These days, I imagine it's been swallowed up by Orlando and middle-class suburbs.
__________________
Open carry activists are to gun rights what the Westboro Baptist Church is to free speech.

Last edited by Bren; 03-11-2012 at 06:51..
Bren is offline  
Old 03-11-2012, 07:51   #24
steveksux
Massive Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 13,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by RussP View Post
That was back in 2005.
Did you find some info on that incident? Was curious how Mr. Squeaky Clean got himself arrested... may not be relevant here, but may shed some light on his mindset.

Ultimately, I think the case is going to hinge on a lot of details known only to Zimmerman, Martin, and God. There are probably lots of scenarios, some of which end up with a crime being committed, and some of which end up with a justified shooting.

I'm thinking this is the sort of situation Mas refers to as when he advises you to "avoid the areas where the ice is thinnest"?

ETA: if you were going to list the additional info, why'd you hide it in a link???? That's as useless as hiding useful information in books!

Randy

Last edited by steveksux; 03-11-2012 at 07:54..
steveksux is online now  
Old 03-11-2012, 08:09   #25
ATW525
Senior Member
 
ATW525's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by jack76590 View Post
Well Zimmerman has a right to self defense, but so did Martin. Let us say Zimmerman laid hands on Martin, because he found Martin suspicious, but with no concrete evidence Martin was about to commit a crime, such as carrying a can of gasoline and threatening to set houses on fire.

If you were Martin in this situation would you feel you had a right to fight the person who laid hands on you? Now it seems Martin was a real tiger for his size. I have heard he was under 150 pounds. Now you have to ask yourself if Zimmerman who for sake of argument laid hands on Martin and is now to his surprise losing the fight has a right to shoot Martin.

I have also read Zimmerman was in a vehicle and could have just driven away and waited until police arrived. But Zimmerman chose to get out and play policeman, when at least by all accounts so far, Martin was posing no immediate threat or maybe no threat period. And again a real policeman was on the way.

I think we have to place ourselves in Martin' shoes. How would you feel if a NON police officer followed you in a vehicle, when you were not breaking the law. The person got out and a fight began, you were winning, so the aggressor who had been following you now decided to shoot you.

If Zimmerman is a struggling student, I doubt if he has assets that would justify a civil suit. As in his net worth is less than the cost of an attorney to bring suit. A civil suit should be well down Zimmermans list of concerns.
I don't disagree at all. I think it really hinges on why Zimmerman got out of the car, who initiated the physical confrontation and whether Zimmerman was really in fear of his life. However, looking at Florida's Stand Your Ground law, it wouldn't surprise me if this never sees the inside of a courtroom.
ATW525 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 14:53.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,226
385 Members
841 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42